Pianoteq 8.2.0 update with muffled sound?

Same here, it's obvious with some presets (Steinway D gentle for example).

i guess it’s part of the game. In most cases a significant re-voicing with read only engine parameter changes or changes in the core modelling engine are more than likely going to require slight or major adjustments of your personal fxp files . Like you say it is a double edged sword thing , and the reality is that the more changes you made to the default presets the more likely it is going to impact you . Maybe , it would  be useful to mention  in the release note some more details , instrument by instrument about what key parameters in order to facilitate migration of users own fxp . This is opinion more than a ‘nice to have’ but a ‘must have’ requirement given the philosophy and the potential of pianoteq which is to allow end end user to tune their preset with an incredible level of details .

I'm not on Pro so my editing isn't as extensive to be fair.

I've made lots of presets and preset templates in DAW using third party effects for myself. I have had to adjust those to the new sounds as and when they do this.  Generally however I have to say it's always been worth it and doesn't take long. No changes have made a catastrophic difference. They are generally incremental improvements.
From time to time I will load up a project template and it's a head scratcher why did I like this tonal balance at the time? . Almost certainly it comes down to those incremental changes. Rarely do I abandon a template, just readjust for the changes.

I think it would get to be a bit of a dog's dinner if they kept all the A and B and C .. versions for users to choose from.
Maybe they could offer this up in the Pro version under a hidden panel?

Hello

I agree with "Professor Leandro Duarte", the pianos are sounding a little less bright.

Yesterday I did several tests, I have two Pianoteq installations, one on my notebook and the other on my Zynthian box. I left the Zynthian Box installation at version 8.1.3, but I updated the notebook to 8.2.0. And so I was able to compare the two versions more closely.
I noticed that all the pianos are sounding more realistic. One thing that Pianoteq has always bothered me since I bought it is the "attack", I always found it very artificial. In this new version it is excellent, to me it sounds much more natural now. However, all the piano sounds I tested sounded muffled.
The most glaring example for me was the first "Steinway D HB" preset, it always had a bright sound to me, and now it sounds more muffled.

However, for me this more muffled sound is not a problem. I'm really liking the results of the revoicing, for me all the sounds are sounding like "a step further" than they were in the last version.

What about make a test? A MP3 comparison.

Take the Steinway-D you like the most in 8.1, copy the fxp and transplant to the Steinway-D from 8.2 version.

That's precisely why I suggested Modartt should supply demo files and tell us what to listen for and what to appreciate about the new voicing.

I didn't have a chance to listen until just a bit ago and I don't have a lot of projects with rendered recordings on my laptop to compare, but my first impression was that the change is really quite radical and sounds like more than "voicing". The live audio from 8.2 is significantly louder (like 3dB) with a strong low-midrange boost and greater "presence" like what you would get from compression. If I didn't know better, I would think the mic positions had been changed or that some of my preset modifications (like disabling limiting, reverb and delay, increasing dynamic range, etc.) hadn't been respected, but a quick review shows that's not the case.

I'll have to do some more renders from my un-updated desktop machine to get a better understanding of what I'm hearing and confirm it's only due to the "voicing" change.

It sounds "good", in general, but it's hard to tell how much that is just that it's louder.

Very interesting update. I've only spent a few minutes with it so far, using the "NY Steinway D Studio Recording" preset (my default piano). The re-voicing is VERY dramatic, much darker overall. It's not so much a concerto piano anymore, but I do see it as a good step up in realism. The taming of the (at times harsh) HF is appreciated and very natural here.

My one criticism is around the 5th octave, peaking around F or F# 5 (scientific pitch notation). The notes in this range have kind of a plastic attack that sounds a bit like an electric piano. It's a nice sound actually, but it doesn't sound completely piano-like. When the soft pedal is depressed this quality is amplified significantly. In fact the soft pedal has an extremely dramatic effect, far more than on any real piano...a tiny bit like a piano with practice felt, but less extreme and with more dynamic range. The soft pedal's effect on real pianos is typically very subtle (especially on a piano in very good shape), and I've secretly wished the effect was more pronounced! And of course this can be adjusted in Pianoteq, so just pointing it out for the sake of realism.

I did get a little sense of something like compression, like what brundlefly pointed out, but I'll have to play more to get a better feel for it.

I was talking about the default preset. It's a bid sad. Some presets are better.  But I'm disappointed with this one (Steinway D Gentle). The guitar buzz is very nice addition.

That may not work very well, particularly for the NY Steinway D because of the changes in the soundboard parameters. To get an idea of what sort of changes in settings are induced by this modification in the soundboard, you can compare side by side the NY Steinway D presets from 8.1 with 8.2. The most visible changes may be the Note per Note Spectrum Profile. On a similar vein, changing microphones positions usually also requires some revoicing via the Spectrum Profile.

Since I'm in the middle of a solo-piano project, it wasn't difficult to create a couple short excerpts where you can hear some differences between version 8.1 and 8.2 when opening a file in 8.2 that was created in 8.1 The differences are not "show stoppers" so to speak; but some tweaks will be necessary (at least, for my work) when opening pre-version 8.2 projects using the latest update. These use a modified NY Steinway D. The excerpts are here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfqgxf1HOLI

I love the revoicings in Pianoteq 8.2 so far. Agree that some personal custom presets don't sound the same, but the standard factory presets sound very nice and improved, in my opinion. Thank you, Modartt team.

For what it's worth, I'm really enjoying 8.2.  Some of what sounded like harshness in the treble (using the Steinways) seems to have softened, which I like.  I wonder if others might be hearing the same thing as 'muffled'.  Words aren't great for describing sound!

Thanks to the PT team for continuing to invest and improve all the time.  I really appreciate it.

M

Hi all,

I am a very happy customer for many years with multiple upgrades--always appreciating continuous improvements.

Now, 6.2 has arrived and ...

... I had to revert back to 6.1.3 almost immediately! Specifically, I use a response-customised NY Steinway D Prelude and it sounds beautiful with 6.1.3 on MacBook Pro M1Max on my Roland LX-17 with Local Control Off. In 6.2, I could not even recognise notes from each other, the chords sounded _really_ wrong, it was absolutely awful.

I did not try anything else as this is my go-to preset and I wouldn't want to spend any more time on trying out 6.2 unless you guys have any idea what might be an issue I experienced.

Many thanks!

It might have helped for troubleshooting purposes if you had tried other presets, both custom and stock Modartt-provided presets, or the non-customized NY Steinway D Prelude preset, to see if the issue you mention occurs in them as well, to narrow the possible problem areas.

Anyway, good luck--

Quoting myself above, I did some more testing and have concluded I was mistaken about the cause of the level difference. The comparison on which the above statement was based was using the NY Steinway D Jazz Recording preset with reverb, delay and limiting disabled to get a dry output to which I could apply my own FX in Cakewalk by Bandlab. Using the Youlean Loudness plugin, I measured the LUFS of the DAW-processed 8.2 output at 2.4dB higher than the previously rendered 8.1.3 track with the same FX, a slightly smaller difference than I originally estimated but still significant.

But then I made another comparison using the factory Jazz Recording preset with all the DAW FX removed, and found a much smaller difference of less then 0.5dB. It seems the bigger difference in my original comparison is due to the DAW FX reinforcing the same frequencies that have been boosted in the revoicing of 8.2, making it louder than 8.1 with the same FX applied.

All that said, in the course of my listening, I can't really say that I've warmed up to the new sound. I still prefer the lighter/brighter tone and seemingly wider stereo image of 8.1 with this particular preset. In some ways, I find 8.2 more "electronic" sounding than 8.1. I would characterize it similarly to what another poster described as having the more bell-like tone of an electric piano - pleasant in some respects, but not necessarily more realistic.

After the revoicing I can now use the entire MIDI velocity range.

I've noticed consistently across the standard presets that I can now set the velocity curve as a simple linear 0-127 and the pianos sound natural and convincing in every area of the full velocity range. Previously I had to reduce or restrict (map) the velocity range from 127 to a maximum of 112-117 for the pianos to sound natural to my ears. Any velocity higher than that sounded unnaturally tinny, too bright, too much like a sustained, ringing metallic vibrato.

It's such a pleasure for the pianos, with their revoicing, to sound so natural throughout the entire velocity range.

after downloading version 8.2 I did indeed, at first glance find the sound a little less brilliant but ultimately after having reset the settings "my" Steingraeberg is much more pleasant to play without having to touch anything
thank you Modartt

Hi, I have never copied my settings anywhere, however, as I said in my post, I only change the response/velocity curve ever so slightly--bending a bit upwards from the straight line. Does this constitute changing the 'settings'? I suspect it does not.

Also, to someone indirectly mentioning 'trolling' about the new version, I really do hope it was not me you were referring to. I do not think I deserve to be called a troll if I did not like the sound at all? is that a crime not to like a sound? Maybe my specific use case of going back to the 6-speaker piano from MacBook resulted in this effect, I don't know but it is the very first version--for me--after 6-7 years of use that went backwards big time.

I will reinstall it and try other presets, but again, I was hit very hard by how dull the new version sounded--for me!

Little by little, my ear has become accustomed to the new tonal characteristics of version 8.2.0.

I committed myself to trying new presets and understanding them a little more. Interestingly, the first preset of each instrument list has really pleased me:

NY Steinway Classic;
HB Steinway Classic;
K2 Warm.

These are versatile presets with a very balanced sound. Perhaps, for this reason, they are the first on the lists as a subject of Modartt itself.

I just upgraded to Pianoteq Standard. I believe that with more adjustment options I can find the sound I want without depending too much on the internal adjustments made by Modartt.

This is a sort of PSA.

On updating Pianoteq STAGE to 8.2.0 (from 8.1.3), the voicing and regulation of my custom presents was terrible (my custom presents are very simple modifications of the factory ones, mostly velocity and pedal curves. All are based on the NY Steinway D and saved as a "Full Preset").

Certain notes across the keyboard stuck out like sore thumbs, as if being played with a strong accent. Trying to play with even tone was impossible.

So, I deleted my custom presets and recreated them from the factory ones. This completely fixed my issue. Voicing and regulation is now excellent.

I have no idea why presets saved under 8.1.3 would be problematic after upgrading to 8.2.0. What kind of data gets stored in presets? Anyway, if anyone else finds that their old presets don't work well, it might be worth trying to create new ones from the factory ones.

Encountered this too, unfortunately. I almost exclusively use a Steinway D Player with slightly modified dynamics and volume. Upon updating it the "muffledness" was instantly apparent, underwater/closed lid sort of effect. Tried both reinstalling Pianoteq and making the preset from scratch, no luck.
Going to try using the iOS version to see if there's any difference.

Update:
Done some testing on iOS, and at this point I'm almost convinced this is not a 8.2 specific issue, but some sort of a lower level issue with Pianoteq desktop (Mac in my case).
I've compared few presets both on iPhone and Mac, same settings, same volume, same headphone setup (same DAC), and Steinway D is clearly muffled on Mac.
However there's a twist to this, after downgrading back to 8.1.3 the issue remained on the Mac, which is the reason I came to the conclusion above.
I almost started doubting my own ears, but after several back and forths between the laptop and the phone, I'm 100% sure at this point that the phone sounds perfectly crisp and normal, while the Mac version doesn't.

If Modartt staff happens to be reading this and is interested, I'm happy to try and provide reproduction details, or a playback recording from both devices.

I love the update to 8.2. All the models sound more realistic with less sharp treble. For me it's an improvement.

I've been using Pianoteq since v.3. I'm glad I was not on my own thinking that the sound had become a little more "muffled." This is no joke, but I was worrying that the top end of my hearing had gone; then, I thought maybe my monitors and audio interface may have had some issues. After checking lots of reference material it showed that both were ok. Then, checking the forum was pleased to see others had noted the missing treble.

Like others have noted, the realism around the attack has certainly improved. I'm using Pianoteq much more these days as my standalone go-to piano. However, I've always struggled getting Pianoteq in the mix whereby I want it to cut through with the treble, yet not be harsh or synthetic. It is interesting to listen to recordings of piano in rock and pop genres and to often here how very bright the piano will sound. I reference with good quality recordings of bands like Steely Dan where there is a consensus around the quality of the recordings / mixes. Usually, the mix engineers will boost the treble and this really allows the piano to cut through in the mix. For my own music, I'm always looking for the piano to work well in the mix and not be masked and I will nearly always use another EQ when using Pianoteq. I'd really like the higher frequencies to be further improved. I nearly always turn up the hammer hardness, yet, there becomes the risk of it sounding too synthetic. Same with the Equalizer (not the FX one).

I find that Pianoteq works brilliantly as a standalone instrument  - there is something about the mics and the acoustic space which brings the piano "into" the room via the speakers. Nevertheless, for multitrack recordings, I often find that Pianoteq sounds way too big and expansive in the soundfield, and I'll ofen experiment with narrowing the width, using the "stereo" output rather than mics etc. etc.. All work in progress

Does anyone else who uses Pianoteq in multitrack mixes find issues with getting the higher frequencies to cut through nicely, without sacrificing realism?