Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

aWc wrote:

I know this is getting seriously off topic
..
I guess we could have a separate thread about this if anybody wants to pursue.

Interesting concept but only in practical terms for those select few with high quality upright pianos geographically near the company and the spare cash.  So something of a niche interest subject.

I guess that topic is starting to look like something for say Pianoclack or Pianoworld  forums (other forums are available- as per BBC answer!).

The springs do look like a clever innovation though. Assuming they stay in position after several years of playing. Piano tuners not being experts on  these spring mechanisms positioning.

Last edited by Key Fumbler (30-11-2022 11:21)

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Gaston wrote:
BarbaraRB wrote:

Also, I believe the U4 is the Yamaha U4 though they can't use the name.

There is no Yamaha U4, only U1 and U3.
From the picture in the GUI, the Pianoteq U4 looks very much like the Yamaha U3.
Thus by choosing this number Modartt does not risk to be suspected of plagiarism

(I own a U1 since 40 years)

Thank you for the clarification. I didn't know that there is no U4. Very clever way to avoid violating trademark restrictions! I wish PTQ would do this with Bosendorfer, Fazioli, etc.

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

BarbaraRB wrote:
Gaston wrote:
BarbaraRB wrote:

Also, I believe the U4 is the Yamaha U4 though they can't use the name.

There is no Yamaha U4, only U1 and U3.
From the picture in the GUI, the Pianoteq U4 looks very much like the Yamaha U3.
Thus by choosing this number Modartt does not risk to be suspected of plagiarism

(I own a U1 since 40 years)

Thank you for the clarification. I didn't know that there is no U4. Very clever way to avoid violating trademark restrictions! I wish PTQ would do this with Bosendorfer, Fazioli, etc.


Amen to that. Hopefully they haven't made a rod for their own back when they went the way of official licences?

Empire Boss 290, YC-FX.. being 'em on!

Even so sometimes I wonder just how many similar crisp, clean, pristine sounding concert piano sounds we really need?
Most of the colour comes from the performance, an interpretation - the timing, intonation..
I can have fun with new sounds and like a poor workman blame the tools!
- none of us would be musically limited even if we had only a fraction of the current available tools. The piano colours aren't limited now, only our imagination and ability.

Who am I kidding - I'll buy even more new pianos if they're good, it's a relatively benign consumer habit!

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

BarbaraRB wrote:
Gaston wrote:
BarbaraRB wrote:

Also, I believe the U4 is the Yamaha U4 though they can't use the name.

There is no Yamaha U4, only U1 and U3.
From the picture in the GUI, the Pianoteq U4 looks very much like the Yamaha U3.
Thus by choosing this number Modartt does not risk to be suspected of plagiarism

(I own a U1 since 40 years)

Thank you for the clarification. I didn't know that there is no U4. Very clever way to avoid violating trademark restrictions! I wish PTQ would do this with Bosendorfer, Fazioli, etc.

I wonder why there's no U2 piano. Maybe they don't fancy dealing with a lawsuit from Bono!

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

dazric wrote:

I wonder why there's no U2 piano. Maybe they don't fancy dealing with a lawsuit from Bono!

That would be a bit rich coming from a man that's kind of named after a dog biscuit!

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

What I would really like to see is improvement of all the historical instruments, both free and paid.  IMO, instruments of the free KIViR pack are of varying qualities, with the Walter the best and the Schöffstoss and the Graf the worst.  Many models lack the high frequency `spicy' feel of the strings (I don't know how to put it in words more precisely) like the Besendorfer, and some models have really strange high ends just like the Schöffstoss and the Graf.  I am looking forwards to see a big update of them

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

A possible piano that is almost there already is the piano luthéal. Ravel wrote for it; it was invented by Cloetens in Belgium around the start of 20thC, when people started to be interest in historic keyboards. It is a contraption that fits over a piano and modifies the sound rather like the prepared piano (John Cage and my namesake Henry Cowell). The luthéal could lower small metal pins to rattle on the strings (clavecin stop) and/or a felt pad halfway down the string to produce a harmonic (like on a harp flageolet) - harpe tirée.
There is one original luthéal in MIM Brussels, the French government commissioned one in 1987, and some new versions have been made. The originals were intended for Erard or Pleyel grands, which PT already has. Also, the bassoon pedal adds some rattling, and the pinch harmonic pedal produces the harpe tirée. The MIM instrument (on a Pleyel) has been sampled (https://www.realsamples.de/Edition-MIM/en), and I tried reproducing it on the PT Pleyel, but the effects were not really strong enough. The rattling is not metallic enough, and does not work in combination with the harpe tirée (called cimbalom when both stops are used). Technically all the strings are pinched at the half-way point with the harpe tirée, which affects the resonance. Also, the luthéal can split treble and bass to have different registrations.
I think reproducing the luthéal well is more than can be done with the available customisations. Also, it would be interesting to put it on other pianos; the French version in on an Erard, and I believe versions for Steinway and Fazioli have been tried.

Last edited by PaulG (18-01-2023 19:44)

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

I wonder if Chris Maene modern straight strung grand is possible for pianoteq as a sort of morphing feature, if was possible to alter the cross strings of Steinway-D to a straight strung position.

https://youtu.be/CO7xWoIRrE0


https://youtu.be/ktL33ZsSjrA

Last edited by Beto-Music (30-01-2023 22:49)

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Beto-Music wrote:

I wonder if Chris Maene modern straight strung grand is possible for pianoteq as a sort of morphing feature, if was possible to alter the cross strings of Steinway-D to a straight strung position.

https://youtu.be/CO7xWoIRrE0


https://youtu.be/ktL33ZsSjrA

I don't hear anything distinctive about that piano

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

What about Estonia pianos?

Do their best models rivals the germans pianos brands?

According Wikipedia they had ups and downs, but had very good models in the good periods.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonia_Piano_Factory


"The Estonia pianos, manufactured during the existence of the Soviet Union, were surprisingly strong and could demonstrate excellent stability, fast mechanic and grand singing tone. Pianos from that period are very rare to find nowadays, almost being an extinct brand. After the fall of the Soviet Union, the new pianos in the early 1990s were plagued by manufacturing defects. Those made since about 2002 have demonstrated remarkable quality and a unique, sweet singing tone. Additional improvements made in the years 2003–05 have placed the Estonia grand pianos in the highest or second-highest tier of quality, based upon the ranking system of Pianobuyer, a recognized reference in the piano industry.[citation needed]

Concert pianist Marc-André Hamelin, after choosing an Estonia piano for himself, commented, "The level of craftsmanship in the Estonia piano can only inspire the highest respect and I have no doubt that this piano will continue to prove essential to sensitive musicians."


https://youtu.be/DWkagt9E65o


https://youtu.be/UNuYZYA4EKM

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Beto-music,
FWIW another link to a video on an Estonia piano came up in my YouTube feed today:
https://youtu.be/HDsMSJChUI4

I had not heard of them before your post.

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Gnusmas wrote:

What I would really like to see is improvement of all the historical instruments, both free and paid.  IMO, instruments of the free KIViR pack are of varying qualities, with the Walter the best and the Schöffstoss and the Graf the worst.  Many models lack the high frequency `spicy' feel of the strings (I don't know how to put it in words more precisely) like the Besendorfer, and some models have really strange high ends just like the Schöffstoss and the Graf.  I am looking forwards to see a big update of them

Not sure if it's related to this but I think some of those have had extended ranges added (which can be disabled) beyond what the real models had.  The Graf, for example, has several notes at the high and low ends added and they're active by default.  You can disable the extra range by clicking the little minus sign at the bottom left of the keyboard UI.

StephenG

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Hi,

Hi want that they model the same Steinway sound than VSL Synchron Stage D-274 (Condenser+ribbon mics and VSL velocity fix -20)

don't like the Pianoteq Steinway D HB or NY

Only the Steinway B, begin to sound like a Steinway. (not bad in Pianoteq 8 with Steinway B improv. preset)

Regards,

Olivier F.

Last edited by Olivier W (21-02-2023 14:10)

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Olivier W wrote:

Hi,

Hi want that they model the same Steinway sound than VSL Synchron Stage D-274 (Condenser+ribbon mics and VSL velocity fix -20)

don't like the Pianoteq Steinway D HB or NY

Only the Steinway B, begin to sound like a Steinway. (not bad in Pianoteq 8 with Steinway B improv. preset)

Regards,

Olivier F.


So why don't you use the VSL Synchron Stage D-274?

Respeito, Esforço e Sabedoria

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Professor Leandro Duarte wrote:
Olivier W wrote:

Hi,

Hi want that they model the same Steinway sound than VSL Synchron Stage D-274 (Condenser+ribbon mics and VSL velocity fix -20)

don't like the Pianoteq Steinway D HB or NY

Only the Steinway B, begin to sound like a Steinway. (not bad in Pianoteq 8 with Steinway B improv. preset)

Regards,

Olivier F.


So why don't you use the VSL Synchron Stage D-274?

He did in his hybrid recording:
https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=10252

Personally I prefer the sound of Pianoteq on its own, or the VSL Synchron on its own.

Still an interesting combination. Thanks to Oliver for sharing.

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Olivier W wrote:

Hi,

Hi want that they model the same Steinway sound than VSL Synchron Stage D-274 (Condenser+ribbon mics and VSL velocity fix -20)

don't like the Pianoteq Steinway D HB or NY

Only the Steinway B, begin to sound like a Steinway. (not bad in Pianoteq 8 with Steinway B improv. preset)

Regards,

Olivier F.

The Steinway D's in Pianoteq are also my least favorite ones after the YC5... though the Steinway B I like very much   But the Steinway D's I heard in the Philharmonic here and in Hamburg are great instruments and we have one at a small local Jazz Club and it is phenomenal. So for me there is something not quite right with the Pianoteq Sound ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

NormanP wrote:
Olivier W wrote:

Hi,

Hi want that they model the same Steinway sound than VSL Synchron Stage D-274 (Condenser+ribbon mics and VSL velocity fix -20)

don't like the Pianoteq Steinway D HB or NY

Only the Steinway B, begin to sound like a Steinway. (not bad in Pianoteq 8 with Steinway B improv. preset)

Regards,

Olivier F.

The Steinway D's in Pianoteq are also my least favorite ones after the YC5... though the Steinway B I like very much   But the Steinway D's I heard in the Philharmonic here and in Hamburg are great instruments and we have one at a small local Jazz Club and it is phenomenal. So for me there is something not quite right with the Pianoteq Sound ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

The B model has a darker sound
Do you find the D presets too sharp sounding?

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

It is hard to describe what I miss. I don't think they are sharp, but I miss this sparkle in the sound. This soft kind of sparkle and attack. And I miss details in the sound. Kind of a 3D Model where the surface doesn't have a lot of details. I miss some ringing of the strings etc. Really hard to describe...

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Je veux un Steinway comme celui-là !

https://themindcircle.com/111-west-57th...h40b4FaBcw

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/111_West_57th_Street

We can see that the people at Steinway have had their say :

Pour éviter qu'elle se balance au gré du vent, un amortisseur harmonique de 800 tonnes se trouve dans le haut du gratte-ciel. Il est constitué par deux grosses masses de plaques d’acier. L'une est suspendue au plafond par une série de câbles. L’autre est fixée au plancher par des vérins hydrauliques.

To prevent it from swaying in the wind, an 800 ton harmonic damper is located at the top of the skyscraper. It consists of two large masses of steel plates. One is suspended from the ceiling by a series of cables. The other is fixed to the floor by hydraulic jacks.

Last edited by Gaston (06-03-2023 10:36)

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Impressive architecture and a revolting sight!

What a blight on the landscape!

EDIT: Maybe my gut reaction to that giant stick in the landscape was a tad inappropriate for the thread. Sorry Gaston.

Last edited by Key Fumbler (06-03-2023 22:54)

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

It would be very nice to see Beethoven’s Erard (piano en forme de clavecin).

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

dazric wrote:
BarbaraRB wrote:
Gaston wrote:

There is no Yamaha U4, only U1 and U3.
From the picture in the GUI, the Pianoteq U4 looks very much like the Yamaha U3.
Thus by choosing this number Modartt does not risk to be suspected of plagiarism

(I own a U1 since 40 years)

Thank you for the clarification. I didn't know that there is no U4. Very clever way to avoid violating trademark restrictions! I wish PTQ would do this with Bosendorfer, Fazioli, etc.

I wonder why there's no U2 piano. Maybe they don't fancy dealing with a lawsuit from Bono!

Hi, I found out from internet that there is/was an U2 piano.        "From Hamamatsu Japan, the U2 is an upright built in 1971. The Yamaha U2 was discontinued by Yamaha in the 1980s but it was built to the same high standards as the hugely popular Yamaha U1 and U3 pianos"

All the best, everyone

Stig

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

NormanP wrote:

It is hard to describe what I miss. I don't think they are sharp, but I miss this sparkle in the sound. This soft kind of sparkle and attack. And I miss details in the sound. Kind of a 3D Model where the surface doesn't have a lot of details. I miss some ringing of the strings etc. Really hard to describe...

I know what you mean. The real Steinway D has a sparkle and clear but not overly bright sound. The one in Pianoteq tends to be brittle particularly in the upper end as if the piano is located in a room with a lot of hard surfaces with little resonance to go along with the tone.

A 3d model is a good description. The model is okay but the texturing lacks the normal map to give it any textures, so the model looks like the basic 3d model textured in the old Phong texture.

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

I've been thinking about the question of what pianos I would like Modartt to model, and my answer increasingly tends to be: none.

In fact, I'm increasingly starting to feel that perhaps Pianoteq should move away from modelling real-life pianos such as the Steinway D and concentrate instead on developing its own virtual piano models.

The reason I'm suggesting this is because the K2 has become by far my favourite Pianoteq model. I've increased string length to 274 cm, slightly adapted some settings for the K2 Warm preset, and use Cinematic Rooms Pro as an external reverb (a slightly adapted version of the 'Rear Stage' preset).

The result is, to my ears, a wonderful, immersive and supremely playable piano sound, especially for classical music -- the best I've been able to coax from a virtual piano so far (including all of the sampled pianos I've tried). It also sounds in some ways more like a Steinway D4 to me than the actual Pianoteq model D. I use the K2 every day to practise, play and record a range of classical music, from Mozart and Schubert to Carl Vine and Takemitsu.

As Modartt explain on their website, the K2 "is not based on any specific model but created from scratch by the Modartt virtual piano factory, combining the best elements of several source pianos." As far as I'm concerned, this might be the best Pianoteq strategy for the future. It might also do the most justice to what Pianoteq is about: creating a convincing physically modelled virtual piano. Ultimately, the question of whether or not Pianoteq 'nails' the Steinway (or Bluthner or whatever) sound may not matter so much. What's much more important, in my view, is whether it offers a virtual instrument that feels and sounds real on its own pianistic terms.

If this means abandoning the 'painstakingly modelled real-world piano X' approach (and my experiences with the K2 suggest that this might indeed be the case), so be it. Perhaps the real strengths of Pianoteq lie in its ability to create a virtual piano that is its own thing -- a bit like building an entirely new real-world piano.

Needless to say, I'm writing all of this as a long-time devoted Pianoteq user who has nothing but admiration for the Modartt team. I'd be interested to see what other people think.

Last edited by Pianophile (31-12-2023 14:17)

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Groove On wrote:

What pianos would you like Modartt to model? Yamaha, Fazioli, Mason & Hamlin, the Bösendorfer from the other thread?

(technical side note, if Modartt only models one Fazioli - shouldn’t it be called a Faziolo?)

M&H & Fazioli for me . Also I wish pianoteq includes  their own impulse reverb files recorded in the most renowned studio such as Abbey Road and Teldex Berlin . Of course,  you could acquire additional plugins and play pianoteq within a daw and it is not  Moddart’s core business  but I think that would give pianoteq an edge . One of the reasons Garritan CFX was very popular is related to the fact that ambient mics captured abbey road studio 1 reverb .

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Pianistically wrote:

... I wish pianoteq includes  their own impulse reverb files recorded in the most renowned studio such as Abbey Road and Teldex Berlin .

Import into Pianoteq (including standalone, DAW unnecessary) and test these meticulously produced Pori, Finland concert hall impulse-response reverbs:

http://legacy.spa.aalto.fi/projects/poririrs/


--- --- ---

https://i.imgur.com/4h0H7wo.png

Last edited by Stephen_Doonan (01-01-2024 13:23)
--
Linux, Pianoteq Pro, Organteq

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Stephen_Doonan wrote:
Pianistically wrote:

... I wish pianoteq includes  their own impulse reverb files recorded in the most renowned studio such as Abbey Road and Teldex Berlin .

Import and try these Pori, Finland concert hall impulse-response reverbs inside Pianoteq:
http://legacy.spa.aalto.fi/projects/poririrs/

Thanks so much for sharing !

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Thanks so much for sharing !

You're welcome. Can be imported and used in standalone Pianoteq as well, DAW not needed.

--
Linux, Pianoteq Pro, Organteq