Topic by MartzPT

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Topic: Recommended keyboard midi controller?

Hi all

I'm new to Pianoteq and am just loving it.  I am currently playing on an ancient Yamaha digital piano that doesn't have great action:  my main gripe is that it becomes incredibly stiff when I play "deeper" in the keys.  From a bit of research it seems that is most likely related to a very short overall key length.  It also has pretty limited midi functionality (e.g. it can't send anything over about 100) though Pianoteq does a good job of mitigating that.

I've primarily been a guitarist until this year but I'm now fully addicted to piano and am studying it as much as possible with a focus on (i) jazz and (ii) classical.

I tried searching the forum to see if the combined wisdom of the Pianoteq users would show some recommendations for keyboards/midi controllers but I didn't really find much.  If people would like to share some guidance and the experience of keyboards/controllers that you use with Pianoteq I'd be very interested and grateful to hear it.

So far, I have managed to play a number of Kawai digital pianos.  I didn't particularly enjoy the RH3 action (which I had thought from research I would) but I really enjoyed the Grandfeel 3 (which was on a Kawai CA901).  I'm not expecting something that feels exactly like an acoustic but I would like something that doesn't have so much of a difference in resistance when playing at the front or back of the key.  Unfortunately, there are very few piano show-rooms near me that stock anything with properly weighted/graded key action.

I think €3,000 would be my upper limit (Kawai CA 701 - which apparently has the Grandfeel 3 action - is currently available for that) but I'd really like to spend less if at all possible.  I'm conscious that with the CA series, you are paying a lot for the internal sounds (which I don't need thanks to Pianoteq) and for the speakers (which I think would be nice but aren't strictly necessary as I mostly play through headphones and have some ok studio monitors).

All suggestions, cautionary tales, opinions (preferably experience-based!) welcome.

Thanks all

M

Reply by bani223

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Re: Recommended keyboard midi controller?

MartzPT wrote:

...playing on an ancient Yamaha digital piano that doesn't have great action...

I didn't particularly enjoy the RH3 action .... but I really enjoyed the Grandfeel 3 (which was on a Kawai CA901). ...

... there are very few piano show-rooms near me ....

...€3,000 would be my upper limit ...

... (which I don't need thanks to Pianoteq)

M

Hello Martz,
Sounds like you already know what you want/don't want, which is good, but I don't know if my reply will help.

- Try the action first. You may have to call around and go to a special shop far away. Maybe in person they will even let you plug in your pianoteq device.

- Keyboard should have high-res midi, if possible. I tried with and without and I like with better. See https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=5897 for a few models that should have it.

- If a show or play with others is a possibility, built-in sounds may be important, especially if realtime audio synthesis is not always the main function of your device.

Best of luck and enjoy your keyboard.

Last edited by bani223 (05-06-2023 14:10)
MOTU M2 using native ASIO driver, Windows 11, weird tweaks needed to make it work, but seems fine now.
I have posted several times about tweaking Pianoteq

Reply by MartzPT

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Re: Recommended keyboard midi controller?

Thank you - appreciate the guidance. 

bani223 wrote:
MartzPT wrote:

...playing on an ancient Yamaha digital piano that doesn't have great action...

I didn't particularly enjoy the RH3 action .... but I really enjoyed the Grandfeel 3 (which was on a Kawai CA901). ...

... there are very few piano show-rooms near me ....

...€3,000 would be my upper limit ...

... (which I don't need thanks to Pianoteq)

M

Hello Martz,
Sounds like you already know what you want/don't want, which is good, but I don't know if my reply will help.

- Try the action first. You may have to call around and go to a special shop far away. Maybe in person they will even let you plug in your pianoteq device.

- Keyboard should have high-res midi, if possible. I tried with and without and I like with better. See https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=5897 for a few models that should have it.

- If a show or play with others is a possibility, built-in sounds may be important, especially if realtime audio synthesis is not always the main function of your device.

Best of luck and enjoy your keyboard.

Reply by rthree

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Re: Recommended keyboard midi controller?

I'm just going to put in my personal experience.   Adult beginner piano player with a lot of soft synth experience.  I had a Nord Stage 2 for a long time; it was fine and the internal sounds were very nice even after 10 years or so.  But 2 years ago I got more serious about learning piano during Covid, and have been taking online classes with an instructor.

The Nord was fine, but as I progressed the plastic keys always kind of slipped.  I'm a beginner so just figured it was my bad playing.

I got the opportunity to travel overseas and happened to check out a music store that had a Studiologic Numa X GT controller, along with a Nord grand.  Wow, both of those were way better than my Nord stage 2.

I liked the NG alot, but it was 2.5X more expensive than the Studiologic, which I went with.   I *love* the wood keys and the action, and feel like my playing has become more precise (it's only been a few weeks, but I really look forward to playing it than I did with the NS).   The downside is the internal sounds are a little meh , but now I am using it with modelled piano plugins so I don't use the on board ones at all.   The other downside is that this model is very difficult to find in a store unless you are in a major music city I think.

Reply by larrycalame

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Re: Recommended keyboard midi controller?

I own the Roland FP-90X. I experimented with several others (Kawai, Dexibell) but for me the Roland was the best, both in terms of action and features. The PHA-50 action, to my mind, is the best I've played and is highly acclaimed by the user community. The features that I value are the USB Audio, the high quality built in monitors, built-in EQ sliders, and the midi implementation.

The USB Audio allows me to connect a single USB cable to my Microsoft Surface, which sits atop the (included) music rest, so I no longer need a separate audio interface. That, along with the built in monitors (which sound great) and allow me to have a very minimalist setup.

The (triple) EQ sliders are a godsend.

The midi implementation, while well short of a typical controller keyboard, has everything I really need. It includes two sliders that I can map to whatever I want in Pianoteq. I map one to hammer hardness (for all three levels, each with a different curve), and the other to volume. It also has a master volume, but I sometimes play along with recordings on Youtube, so having a volume slider dedicated to Pianoteq enables me to easily mix the piano and the Youtube in real time.

I mainly use the Roland at home, and use a more portable (Casio) for gigging. But while the Roland weighs 50 lbs, it would still be quite feasible to take it and Pianoteq to a gig, in which case I would recommend supplementing the built in monitors with an external amp via the line outs on the Roland.

Reply by miiindbullets

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Re: Recommended keyboard midi controller?

Good recommendations so far. You may have come across this in your research, but I found this discussion around pivot length helpful when I was shopping last year: https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads...ength.html

Anecdotally, I ended up grabbing a Yamaha CP88 for just under $2k, and I'm super happy with the action at that price. A solid step up from the Roland PHA-4 I was playing previously (which is a very nice action for the $500 I paid). Kawai MP11SE was the other option I was considering, and I liked that action just a little bit more than the CP88, but not $1k+ more. Take it all with a grain of salt though, everyone likes different actions. Good luck with your search!

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Reply by NEKTAR

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Re: Recommended keyboard midi controller?

If you can be happy with only semi-weighted action I would recommend NEKTAR LX88+. Lots of Velocity Curve Options and gobs of MIDI Controls.

Reply by wws

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Re: Recommended keyboard midi controller?

I am a beginner, but I went to a piano showroom and tested a about 12 keyboards, from good acoustic Kawai's to the Roland PH 4 (and others I forget); I could barely tell them apart.  I have an RD 88 with a PH 4 keyboard, and it's fine for my purposes; my teacher has a Yamaha concert grand that I play an hour / week. I like the RD88 because it has midi, but also speakers  and sounds that can do in a pinch though PT is much better.

If I was doing it again, I might consider the Roland midi only version (I forget the name) and better speakers than my little Presonuses, but for the next couple years my setup is just fine.

Last edited by wws (06-06-2023 05:52)

Reply by MartzPT

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Re: Recommended keyboard midi controller?

Thanks everyone for the guidance - I really appreciate how supportive this community is.  I'm now trying to find a piano show-room where I can test:
-  Kawai Grandfeel 3 (again - loved it the first time)
-  Kawai RH3 (again - didn't like it much the first time)
-  Roland PHA-50 (I'm consistently hearing good things and I've seen some high level classical playing on it)
-  Yamaha (I'm not sure which action but if I play a bunch in my price-range that should help).
-  Numa Logic if I can find it.

I'll report back if I eventually make a decision.  Now back to practising actually playing the keyboard I have!

M

Reply by miiindbullets

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Re: Recommended keyboard midi controller?

MartzPT wrote:

Thanks everyone for the guidance - I really appreciate how supportive this community is.  I'm now trying to find a piano show-room where I can test:
...
-  Yamaha (I'm not sure which action but if I play a bunch in my price-range that should help).
M

For Yamaha, I'd recommend trying the P515 (uses their NWX action) and/or CP88 (NW-GH). NWX is the same as NW-GH, but it adds escapement. I didn't have a preference between the two.

Both of the Yamaha NW actions are meant to compete with something like the Roland PHA-50, although they feel different. PHA-50 is lighter but felt slightly more "spongy", NW actions are a little heavier but felt more "snappy" to me. Both feel like premium actions.

As far as longevity goes, Yamaha and Roland have a long-standing reputation for making reliable actions that will take a beating. Roland has a 10-year warranty, IIRC. Kawai had some quality control issues recently (seems like those spiked during the pandemic), but make some of the nicest actions I've played. Fatar (StudioLogic) isn't known for reliability, but the Numa X GT action is pretty new and is their most premium action, so only time will tell. I've heard nothing but good things about it so far. Good luck!

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Reply by MartzPT

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Re: Recommended keyboard midi controller?

Thanks miiindbullets (great username btw!).

That's really helpful re the Yamaha actions to look out for and for the extra info on the other brands.  I have a better idea of what to test when I get to a showroom now, which is really helpful.  I don't think I will be able to find anywhere to test the Numa X GT so I think I will just leave that one alone for now.  Despite beginning relatively new to piano (I'm a guitar and bass player that has finally seen the light!) I'm surprised at just how strong a reaction I've had to different actions I have tried, including not liking some that are generally very well regarded.  My updated list of actions to test:
-  Kawai Grandfeel 3 (again - loved it the first time):  CA 701 model.
-  Kawai RH3 (again - didn't like it much the first time):  CN 401 model or ES 920 model.
-  Roland PHA-50 (I'm consistently hearing good things and I've seen some high level classical playing on it):  either HP704 model or the FP90X model.
-  Yamaha NWX (P515 model) and/or NW-GH (CP88 model).

It will be at least a few weeks before I get another chance to get to the only showroom in Ireland that seems to stock decent digital pianos.  In the meantime I might fall back in love with my current (old Yamaha) keyboard but I doubt it as the stiffness of the action closer to the fallboard (I think that's the right word) is just killing any nuance / evenness in my playing when I need to use it.

Happy piano playing everyone!

Reply by MartzPT

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Re: Recommended keyboard midi controller?

Sorry - one other question for all you wonderful helpful PTers.

Does anyone use their digital piano as their sound system more generally (i.e. not just for playing piano)? 

My current mini-home studio involves a laptop running software (mostly Helix native) for guitar and bass guitar sounds.  The guitars connect to the laptop via a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 audio interface and the Scarlett's line outputs go to 2 studio monitors (KRK Rocket 5).  The monitors are great for guitar but a little lacking for the bass guitar.  Looking at the Kawai CA701 it seems to have a pretty significant speaker array including some large speakers for bass output.  I'm not sure how "flat" the speakers are likely to be though (which is presumably relevant for using PT through any external spearers also).

So my current thinking is that I could potentially connect the Kawai CA701 speakers to the Scarlett and sell on the studio monitors.  This would help justify the price and (equally important) save on space.  Looking at the CA701 specs online it all seems to add up but I'm never confident about this type of thing until I actually have hands-on and set everything up (which isn't really possible in a store).

Has anyone tried something like this?

MartzPT wrote:

Thanks miiindbullets (great username btw!).

That's really helpful re the Yamaha actions to look out for and for the extra info on the other brands.  I have a better idea of what to test when I get to a showroom now, which is really helpful.  I don't think I will be able to find anywhere to test the Numa X GT so I think I will just leave that one alone for now.  Despite beginning relatively new to piano (I'm a guitar and bass player that has finally seen the light!) I'm surprised at just how strong a reaction I've had to different actions I have tried, including not liking some that are generally very well regarded.  My updated list of actions to test:
-  Kawai Grandfeel 3 (again - loved it the first time):  CA 701 model.
-  Kawai RH3 (again - didn't like it much the first time):  CN 401 model or ES 920 model.
-  Roland PHA-50 (I'm consistently hearing good things and I've seen some high level classical playing on it):  either HP704 model or the FP90X model.
-  Yamaha NWX (P515 model) and/or NW-GH (CP88 model).

It will be at least a few weeks before I get another chance to get to the only showroom in Ireland that seems to stock decent digital pianos.  In the meantime I might fall back in love with my current (old Yamaha) keyboard but I doubt it as the stiffness of the action closer to the fallboard (I think that's the right word) is just killing any nuance / evenness in my playing when I need to use it.

Happy piano playing everyone!

Reply by Skelz

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Re: Recommended keyboard midi controller?

MartzPT wrote:

All suggestions, cautionary tales, opinions (preferably experience-based!) welcome.

Here's a cautionary tale: I have a Kawai VPC-1 with ‘RM3 Grand II’ keyboard action. The KB is fine, but the supplied sustain pedal is terrible, with a wildly fluctuating, unstable response. To get around this I've had to use a nicer pedal (Yamaha FC3A), plug that into a different keyboard - because it won't work with the VPC - run an extension cable under the VPC stand and tell Pianoteq to listen to both keyboards. So 'teq listens to notes on the VPC, and listens to sustain via an Arturia synth KB.  There are other workarounds involving modding the pedal with Arduino boards and optical sensors, but I happened to have other outboard gear that'd cover the problem.

Reply by MartzPT

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Re: Recommended keyboard midi controller?

Hi Skelz

Thanks very much for that - important information to know.  Well done on figuring out a work-around - sounds like a real headache.

M

Skelz wrote:
MartzPT wrote:

All suggestions, cautionary tales, opinions (preferably experience-based!) welcome.

Here's a cautionary tale: I have a Kawai VPC-1 with ‘RM3 Grand II’ keyboard action. The KB is fine, but the supplied sustain pedal is terrible, with a wildly fluctuating, unstable response. To get around this I've had to use a nicer pedal (Yamaha FC3A), plug that into a different keyboard - because it won't work with the VPC - run an extension cable under the VPC stand and tell Pianoteq to listen to both keyboards. So 'teq listens to notes on the VPC, and listens to sustain via an Arturia synth KB.  There are other workarounds involving modding the pedal with Arduino boards and optical sensors, but I happened to have other outboard gear that'd cover the problem.

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: Recommended keyboard midi controller?

You can use most (if not all) pedals with any keyboard provided you hook them up with USB midi adapters like these:

https://www.audiofront.net/MIDIExpression.php

Tec Control also make them, along with others.

Reply by Eclectic

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Re: Recommended keyboard midi controller?

I went through the same process, searching for controller with a decent piano keyboard.

The Kawai CA 99 was the only one that I liked but I only care about the action and didn't want to waste money on nice cabinet, speakers and included sound. 

I took a gamble and ordered the Studiologic Piano GT after reading a few detailed description of people who had played it against Kawai and others. I'm pretty satisfied with the purchase, although I don't use any of the on board sounds or features. It's always through Pianoteq. I really wish they would offer the key bed as a controller. I feel that I'm wasting half the piano.

Note however that the keys are made of polymer, not wood. Fatar makes the action and it was originally named "TP/400 WOOD" as in "wood feel". It looks like they're taken the "wood" out of the name lately. There is wood veneer to the sides of the keys which fooled me at first too. Not that I care. The keys do have a good inertia. The surface is also very comfortable, non sticky. Key repetition is fine for me (intermediate pianist) but an advanced pianist would see that they don't bounce back as fast and don't repeat as fast as a real grand action. I don't think anything below a very expensive hybrid action doest this right at this point.

Reply by MartzPT

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Re: Recommended keyboard midi controller?

Hi Eclectic

Thanks a million for that information. Great to hear about your experience with the studio logic- sounds like it could be a good option for me too.
M

Eclectic wrote:

I went through the same process, searching for controller with a decent piano keyboard.

The Kawai CA 99 was the only one that I liked but I only care about the action and didn't want to waste money on nice cabinet, speakers and included sound. 

I took a gamble and ordered the Studiologic Piano GT after reading a few detailed description of people who had played it against Kawai and others. I'm pretty satisfied with the purchase, although I don't use any of the on board sounds or features. It's always through Pianoteq. I really wish they would offer the key bed as a controller. I feel that I'm wasting half the piano.

Note however that the keys are made of polymer, not wood. Fatar makes the action and it was originally named "TP/400 WOOD" as in "wood feel". It looks like they're taken the "wood" out of the name lately. There is wood veneer to the sides of the keys which fooled me at first too. Not that I care. The keys do have a good inertia. The surface is also very comfortable, non sticky. Key repetition is fine for me (intermediate pianist) but an advanced pianist would see that they don't bounce back as fast and don't repeat as fast as a real grand action. I don't think anything below a very expensive hybrid action doest this right at this point.

Reply by Gaston

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Re: Recommended keyboard midi controller?

Perhaps you could have a look at this long thread on the same topic :
"High End Actions for controllers - PHA-50 or Gran Feel or...?"
https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=9939

I was also interested in the Numa, but I didn't need the internal sounds or all those pots and knobs.
I ended up opting for the SL 88 Grand, which doesn't have the same action (TP40Wood, not TP400) but costs 1,000 € less.
(88 Grand : 769€, Numa GT : 1733€).
I don't regret my purchase.
My latest tunes are made with the SL88 Grand :

https://hearthis.at/xnwdv7yv/

Last edited by Gaston (14-06-2023 21:17)
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Reply by Fancellu

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Re: Recommended keyboard midi controller?

I'm using a Casio px-s6000. It is really nice. You can find many reviews on Youtube.

Reply by Ricky Keytardo

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Re: Recommended keyboard midi controller?

Gaston wrote:

Perhaps you could have a look at this long thread on the same topic :
"High End Actions for controllers - PHA-50 or Gran Feel or...?"
https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=9939

I was also interested in the Numa, but I didn't need the internal sounds or all those pots and knobs.
I ended up opting for the SL 88 Grand, which doesn't have the same action (TP40Wood, not TP400) but costs 1,000 € less.
(88 Grand : 769€, Numa GT : 1733€).
I don't regret my purchase.
My latest tunes are made with the SL88 Grand :

https://hearthis.at/xnwdv7yv/

I arrived at the same conclusion SL-88 Grand and am happy with it.

Reply by Fetivi

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Re: Recommended keyboard midi controller?

MartzPT wrote:

Thanks miiindbullets (great username btw!).

That's really helpful re the Yamaha actions to look out for and for the extra info on the other brands.  I have a better idea of what to test when I get to a showroom now, which is really helpful.  I don't think I will be able to find anywhere to test the Numa X GT so I think I will just leave that one alone for now.  Despite beginning relatively new to piano (I'm a guitar and bass player that has finally seen the light!) I'm surprised at just how strong a reaction I've had to different actions I have tried, including not liking some that are generally very well regarded.  My updated list of actions to test:
-  Kawai Grandfeel 3 (again - loved it the first time):  CA 701 model.
-  Kawai RH3 (again - didn't like it much the first time):  CN 401 model or ES 920 model.
-  Roland PHA-50 (I'm consistently hearing good things and I've seen some high level classical playing on it):  either HP704 model or the FP90X model.
-  Yamaha NWX (P515 model) and/or NW-GH (CP88 model).

It will be at least a few weeks before I get another chance to get to the only showroom in Ireland that seems to stock decent digital pianos.  In the meantime I might fall back in love with my current (old Yamaha) keyboard but I doubt it as the stiffness of the action closer to the fallboard (I think that's the right word) is just killing any nuance / evenness in my playing when I need to use it.

Happy piano playing everyone!

What keyboard did you finally buy? I would like to know.

Reply by MartzPT

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Re: Recommended keyboard midi controller?

Hi Fetivi

In the end I decided to stick with my old Yamaha while I'm still learning.  I'm keeping an eye on the used market in Dublin for a Roland FP90x as:  (i) I liked the PHA-50 action a lot; and (ii) I want a 'slab' piano, which I'll use with my studio monitors/headphones.  I wasn't terribly impressed with the speaker experience from any of the furniture style pianos.  The ones I tried were all fine but nothing amazing and it wasn't worth the space trade off for me to try to accommodate them in my house. 

I should say that I've had the opportunity to play a few 'real' grand pianos in one of Dublin's music stores.  Just amazing.  I don't know if that experience could ever be replicated on a digital instrument - it certainly hasn't been on anything I've ever played!  For me though the digital piano approach is the only one that makes sense financial or practical sense. 

Best of luck finding whatever suits you!

Martin

Fetivi wrote:
MartzPT wrote:

Thanks miiindbullets (great username btw!).

That's really helpful re the Yamaha actions to look out for and for the extra info on the other brands.  I have a better idea of what to test when I get to a showroom now, which is really helpful.  I don't think I will be able to find anywhere to test the Numa X GT so I think I will just leave that one alone for now.  Despite beginning relatively new to piano (I'm a guitar and bass player that has finally seen the light!) I'm surprised at just how strong a reaction I've had to different actions I have tried, including not liking some that are generally very well regarded.  My updated list of actions to test:
-  Kawai Grandfeel 3 (again - loved it the first time):  CA 701 model.
-  Kawai RH3 (again - didn't like it much the first time):  CN 401 model or ES 920 model.
-  Roland PHA-50 (I'm consistently hearing good things and I've seen some high level classical playing on it):  either HP704 model or the FP90X model.
-  Yamaha NWX (P515 model) and/or NW-GH (CP88 model).

It will be at least a few weeks before I get another chance to get to the only showroom in Ireland that seems to stock decent digital pianos.  In the meantime I might fall back in love with my current (old Yamaha) keyboard but I doubt it as the stiffness of the action closer to the fallboard (I think that's the right word) is just killing any nuance / evenness in my playing when I need to use it.

Happy piano playing everyone!

What keyboard did you finally buy? I would like to know.