High End Actions for controllers - PHA-50 or Gran Feel or...? (Page 1 of 2)

I really like my FP90. Roland's reliability and good warranty were factors in my purchase. Yamahas are very reliable as well, but four years ago, the FP90 was the best choice for a Pianoteq MIDI controller.

The new NumaX-GT seems to have very fast single note repetitions now. Hmm, this seems faster than what I remember trying to do myself when I tried the FP90X in person, although I'm severely out of practice:

https://youtu.be/gLhuHKePYps?t=60

In the exact same boat, it's been some time looking for the best controller and cannot really settel on any.

After a lot of research, the FP90X looks like a safe bet, its MIDI output is reliable and consistent, I tried it with PTQ in several shops and the results were always stunning, I could achieve low MIDI values (0-20) with accuracy and no effort.

That's not the case with my GF2 (Kawai CA97) which touch I like but its MIDI output is quite a disappointment to me, very difficult to keep in the same MIDI range let alone toe get the lower values consistently. My guts tell me that's gonna be the case with the GF1 in the MP11se and even in a presumable MP12 with the GF3, the issue might be related to the action drift too besides their MIDI implementation.

The other contenders I'd consider as a MIDI controller is the Numa X GT as per reviews and user reports, looks like a good MIDI controller and it's got even superior action than the PHA50 according to some users, I haven't tried it personally yet.

The P515 is a fantastic DP and I like its NWX action as much as I like the PHA50, it's different but enjoyable though. The issue is that their MIDI implementation is also somewhat strange, impossible to achieve neither low nor higher range MIDI values in a consitent way, you can easily play pianissimo on the P515 internal sounds but that will throw high MIDI values out to any VST, some heavy tweaking in the touch curve is needed.

My 2ct in case it helps

Great! Thanks for the data point. I'm trying to find a local store I can try a GT in so I don't have to order one blind, but I will if I have no other choice.

Ordered a Numa X GT! well, I ordered it to a store to try it out with a refundable deposit, so I could open it on site and try it out to make sure. Even compare it side-by-side with the FP90X which I also really like. Win! Thanks forum!

I tested a lot of them and in the end it was either MP11 or VPC1 for me, then I got an offer for an used, practically new, VPC1 for half the price and took it. If you don't need the extra features of the MP11, I'd say the differences in feel are just a matter of taste.

So far and for me I didn't find anything substantially better than the VPC1 for replicating or "faking" the feel of a real piano.
Only the NV series would be better in my experience. (oh man, I want that NV10S...), or maybe the yamaha ones in the same range (with real piano mechanics), I didn't play the yamahas.

But the pedals of the VPC1 are crap, you'll probably need a replacement after ~1 year.

hello,
+1 on the Kawai VPC-1

I am very happy with the keyboard action, had it for a year now. Spent a lot of time comparing key/action designs of different brands and models on youtube. I wonder of an even longer key length would make that much of a difference.

My two cents: Apart from getting a hybrid (stage) piano with other/pricier makes and models, it is a case of diminishing returns to go over the budget of the VPC-1.

Can you please elaborate a bit on your comparison side by side? Which one did finally buy?

I wasn't able to find out if Numa X GT by StudioLogic also supports high-res midi. As a programmer, I'm obviously in favour of better sampling of the note velocities, or more notes / second, or whatever dimension the "high res" applies to, but I am curious now.

Anyone know? If not I'll just ping StudioLogic directly.

I have had many keyboards and gave a lot of gigs with various brand and I can share my experience. Let’s start by saying that it is all about compromise . Here is my recap on the #actions
The most natural and closer to an acoustic grand is without a doubt Kawai action MP11 or VPC1 . The escapement is superb and the touch is very very close to the real thing . I personally prefer the VPC1 as I only play and I don’t care about the other few sound banks and mod wheel that the MP11 . On top of that , you can control the velocity of each key on the VPC1 and replace the triple pedal that really doesn’t match the quality of the keyboard. Same triple pedal is on the MP11 and the Mp11SE has the same also but with electronic sensors . But this kawai triple pedal is really problematic and managing half pedalling with it , near to impossible . If you connect a good pedal  directly via USB on your computer , it will only work with some VST and pianoteq is one of them as it listen to all midi sources . On a Mp11 , you can do it , but then you will have to use the triple pedal if you want to use the MP11 bank sound . On The MP11 you cannot edit the velocity of each key or adjust the pedal like the VPC1 . Sometimes it’s hard to understand the marketing.

The Yamaha 515 is a really good keyboard , the best on the P series , but the escapement is poorly implemented. You don’t feel any resistance at the bottom of the key as opposed to the VPC1 . So it’s kind of a strange feeling . If you are an advanced pianist and want to play some Ravel scores you will struggle , as in a few occasions, you need to play just above the escapement, so you need to feel it.

Roland Ph4 and PHA 59 are excellent actions , BUT it is completely different from the feeling you get on a grand piano . The reason being that Rolland keyboards have extensive sound banks , so they need to provide an action which is versatile enough to play piano , electric pianos and synths . And this is the compromise I was talking about.

So in a nutshell, if 90% of the time you play piano and use pianoteq , the best keyboard is the VPC1 , it even has a velocity preset for pianoteq .

If you play various instruments, then the FP90 is going to be more suited as the VPC1 is designed for grand piano exclusively .

Even though the Yamaha P515 is good the Action is not in the same league than the 2 products above . To get the equivalent, you will need to look at Avant Grand or top Clavinova which are really expensive.

Hope it helps .

Thanks everyone.

I will see if they have a VPC1 as well I can try. I did try the Yamaha p515 and didn't like the feel as much as the PHA-50.

I spent years locked away practicing on various grands at the local conservatory (I was briefly a student there so I had access), and I've played on all kinds, from Steinway to Yamaha all the way up to Bosendorfer 16' imperials (which is truly awesome in key expressiveness, not just sound. you could make it do anything you want effortlessly). I guess what I'm saying is...I want a Bosendorfer! that fits on my table.

The PHA-50 can definitely match that repetition speed. Not to say that it is as quick as the NumaX-GT (I haven't tried it). Here's a recording of me playing the repeated notes (mostly clean) at the beginning of Scarlatti K. 141 on my Roland RD-2000 (PHA-50 keybed) with Pianoteq 8:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1A96YfX...sp=sharing

One thing I can say is that this RD-2000 has taken an absolute beating over the past 4+ years and the keybed still plays like new. Is it a perfect stand-in for a grand piano action? No, but I have come to appreciate its consistency and reliability. I feel like I have very good control of my dynamics at all times. The only area I really notice any bit of sluggishness in the action is on the lowest, heavier keys.

Makes sense. I tried the P515 and while it was good, I didn't find it nearly as inviting to play as the FP90X.

For the Kawais, I'm trying to find somewhere local I can try the MP11SE beforehand, but most dealers near me are Roland + Yamaha focused, no Kawaisk in sight, which is strange.

If I do decide I really love the MP11SE's action and lever length, I would probably hold off on buying and wait for the MP12. I'm kind of allergic to spending top dollar for a ten year old instrument, Kawai's gonna have to earn my dollars more than that. I would just have too much regret in the back of my mind if / when the MP12 comes out and is perhaps significantly better. I know newer isn't necessarily better in all cases, but the Kawai issues, even if they are overblown, worry me.

There are no local shops that carry the MP11SE for me to try, but also it costs like two grand more (Canadian) which is a bit too expensive for me, I think.

My other local shop received my Numa X today but I'm too busy to go pick it up, so I told them to just ship it to me. Should have it next week.

I have 30 days to return it for a full refund if I don't like it or there's a problem with some keys, but I'm expecting it should be fine. Sorry for not being able to compare it with an FP90X or MP11SE, although I could technically just walk over to a store that has the FP90X two blocks away and try it there (where I tried it last time). I may do that. Just too lazy to drive to the store, unpack the Numa X, try it, then repack it and stuff it in my car and deliver it to myself. It's literally less effort to get it shipped to my place and get a full 30-day free trial. I have no intention of returning it if it works well and I'm satisfied with the action. Don't care about the internal sounds, really, but I may buy a few of the downloadable instruments so I don't necessarily have to use Pianoteq all the time.

I also ordered some closed-back magnetic planar wired headphones dedicated to my piano station, so I can get good piano reproduction w/o any distortion at high playing levels, without bothering my wife too much if I practice at all hours. Most magnetic planar cans are open-backed so they let all the sound through, in both directions. I prefer to practice in perfect isolation without concerning myself with others hearing it or being bothered by it.

Thanks Chris.

I actually received the Numa X GT yesterday, and got it installed today. In short...it's amazing! I just played a couple days ago my old Kawai and boy is this thing nimble and articulate. It's neither too light nor too heavy, just in my perfect Goldilocks zone, and I can play much faster. Everything feels great and fast single-note repetitions are definitely there. No regrets at all on this, I believe it's faster than the FP90X I tried a month ago, or at least easier to pull off such fast notes (trills, etc), but I didn't compare side-by-side so this is by no means a scientific fact.

I got it plugged in to Pianoteq 8 but there's too much lag on my wireless headphones so by sunday I will move my PC to the other side of my desk so my new wired headphones can reach. But I will say, the built-in sounds on the GT are quite good too! Not just the pianos, but the organs are amaaaazing. For baroque I'm gonna have a blast. Pedals feel nice too, although I only ever use the sustain pedal. It's just a real pleasure to play and I am very happy with my purchase so far. I didn't test every single note meticulously but I will scrutinize it a lot before the 30-day return window expires.

I highly recommend everyone give the GT a try if they have the chance.

I'm on Day 2 with the Numa X GT, even happier with it now, learning a new piece (fairly easy one, Bloody Tears from CastleVania II). I have the midi and the sheet music which I play side-by-side or at the same time. More and more impressed with the action of this keyboard, it really invites you to play (my touch typing skills right now are on fire, faster than usual. mutually complementary skills). So much articulation and speed. Love love love it so much.

I also discovered that I can route the audio out to the headphones on the keyboard itself from my PC, which works fine with Pianoteq on its own, but only if I mute the on-board sound because there's a slight delay that results in double notes. But only playing pianoteq or only onboard works fine. Or playing pianoteq midi files and muting the midi notes from the keyboard is fun to play along (so the slight lag doesn't matter), and having a different piano sound onboard vs PTQ will make it even better.

When I get my new wired headphones tomorrow, with a longer wire, I will try directly plugging it into my PC and listen with one ear on PTQ and one ear locally. if there's still a delay between onboard vs PTQ, I'll start looking into where the cause is. I'm using Windows low latency mode audio output driver but I see now that Windows Exclusive mode allows you to pick higher sample rates and/or lower number of samples to reduce the output latency further.

All the notes work perfectly and so I won't be returning this or bothering to test the FP90X again. The action is perfect for my fingers and I don't feel like I'll be missing much with an even higher end piano. Maybe in 5 years I'll upgrade again, rather than wait 15 like last time.

I own and can heartily recommend the Roland FP-90X. The action is great, and the build is solid. Also the built in speaker array, combined with the USB audio interface is a real plus in terms of an uncluttered appearance in my living room, and a simple setup at a gig. One more thing: In addition to a convenient dedicated 3 stage EQ, it also has, in addition to master volume, 2 other sliders that send midi controller data. I map them to hammer hardness and lid position, which gives me a lot of real time control from the keyboard.

Hi Larry, you mentinoed about the 2 sliders that can be mapped to send midi controller data. Where are the 2 sliders that can be mapped? And would you please share how you do it? I am also a FP-90X user but never heard of this and could not find the function in the manual. So it's an exciting reveleation for me!

Never tried the MP11SE personally, kinda glad I didn't otherwise I might've splurged and spend two more grand to get it But I'm super happy with the action on the GT due to how easy and nimble it is, no regrets whatsoever. It's very light and portable too, despite being a far better instrument than my now-ancient Kawai MP8-II (which I sold). I think the GT has 2 GB of extra memory for downloads.

I also bought the PTQ harpsichord and classical guitar, both very nice.

In terms of lag, I solved my issue by using wired headphones coming out of the keyboard, and setting my PC to output to the USB sound output of the GT (exclusive mode, 5ms or so, below that there was some crackling), and now I get everything I need. I can hit chords on the onboard piano and through Pianoteq round-trip through the USB (two-ways, MIDI to PC then PTQ waveform back to the GT) and I can't hear any lag between them. I bought my GT at Long and McQuade which give a 30 day full refund so I felt safe buying it from there because these problems won't show up on the showroom floor during a quick test.

I look forward to downloading new onboard instruments, even pay for some. My unit came with Firmware 2.0 pre-installed, it's the first thing I checked. From the moment I hit the notes I knew I had picked a winner! So happy I did my research. I'm sure the FP90X is great too, I loved the feel of it but I feel like GT is just a bit lighter and nimbler than what I remember. But that could be post-purchase rationalization bias talking. Anyway, if I weren't satisfied with the quickness of the keys while feeling like a real piano, I would definitely return it. I'm very, very picky with stuff I buy, I refund everything I don't like 100%, mercilessly. So far, so good.

I like the onboard sounds too, look forward to trying more of them. Some of the organs are really nice.

Thanks so much for the feedback, 2GB is quite impressive (like the best Nord out there) and their sounds are very light compared to Nord (also less nuances are manipulable), BTW sounds are free and you don't need to purchase anything I guess.

@Gaston the SL Grand has the TP40W key action while the NUMA XGT is provided with a superior action called TP400W (Fatar's latest), to answer your question, they're not the same but they're both a big leap forward from what you currently have on your SL990.

Ok, thanks !
Both of them seem to share the same housing :

https://ahp.li/2e01423de03e2b00524b.jpg

https://ahp.li/915c7b9e7a3421a5d9c1.jpg

I already own the triple pedal (bought uselessly years ago, I thought - being made by Studiologic - it would be recognized by my SL990Pro ... ), so  now all I need is a keyboard to match !

Pas les plus fiables, mais certains utilisateurs en sont contents.

Not the most reliable, but some customers are happy with them.

Can anyone confirm whether the NUMA X GT sends continous note-off (0-127) MIDI out?

Those who own one, you still happy with it?

I would like to add my two cents and to disagree with someone up there on the Roland PH4;

I have a Roland RD88 which I bought as a light-weight "gig" replacement for my Kronos 88. The RD88 has a PH4 keyboard. I think it feels a lot like a grand and not a "generic" controller keyboard aimed at playing lots of different sounds. In fact, it's on the heavy side even for playing just piano. But the finish of the keys and the entire "hammer" feel is very good and I would go as far as calling it one of the best options for an affordable and portable "all in one" VST solution (because it also functions as a soundcard and has built in speakers, yet weights only like 11 kgs (23/24 pounds).

Anyway, it's not top of the line but I would definitely say the PH4 has more of a "grand piano" feel than an "all purpose" controller (which e.g. the RH3 in the Kronos 88 has, which is significantly lighter). FWIW, I play different grands every week in schools and theaters. Meaning I know nothing will ever be entirely the same but also meaning I don't obsess about the differences between controllers without ever playing different acoustics.