Topic by miiindbullets

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Topic: Using Pianoteq modeling to supplement sample libraries?

Sorry if this question gets asked a lot -- I scrolled through a few pages, but had a hard time figuring out how to search for this.

Is there a way (with any edition of Pianoteq) to mute the "primary" piano tone you'd hear when pressing a key, and just model the secondary sounds (sympathetic resonance, duplex, mechanical noises, etc.)? Idea is to layer this with a sample library, similar to what Roland does with their supernatural engine.

Thanks!

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Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: Using Pianoteq modeling to supplement sample libraries?

miiindbullets wrote:

Sorry if this question gets asked a lot -- I scrolled through a few pages, but had a hard time figuring out how to search for this.

Is there a way (with any edition of Pianoteq) to mute the "primary" piano tone you'd hear when pressing a key, and just model the secondary sounds (sympathetic resonance, duplex, mechanical noises, etc.)? Idea is to layer this with a sample library, similar to what Roland does with their supernatural engine.

Thanks!

You mean that new experimental system for blending Pianoteq with certain piano sample libraries?

You need to press certain buttons in the correct order within the Pianoteq menu system to get to this hidden option.  Look for:

Augmented
Piano
Reinforcement
Integration
Levelling
01.

Reply by miiindbullets

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Re: Using Pianoteq modeling to supplement sample libraries?

Thanks! I can't find those options, but will poke around a bit. User manual doesn't contain the word "augmented", and I'm just realizing this is April Fools, ha...

My other thought was to try running two instances of Pianoteq, one without any of the extra modeling and one with, and see if I can find a way to invert the signal on the clean instance to effectively cancel out everything except the secondary sounds. I don't really know what I'm doing here.

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Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: Using Pianoteq modeling to supplement sample libraries?

Not worth it.
I suggest you're better off trying to tune presets to your liking, or playing a given sample piano on the pieces you prefer with that.  I seriously doubt a blend will actually improve on the best Modartt can achieve.

The only pianos I feel can sometimes sound slightly better are the ludicrously immense VSL pianos which swallow entire drives by themselves- swallow bank balances too! Those Synchro pianos are very expensive, very slow to load with ever so slightly better sound - sometimes, not always (and it really aught to be always considering what is asked in terms of those resources). Some comparisons I slightly preferred Pianoteq.

Maybe you think some sample library sounds better at times, but making a blend won't necessarily make something more than the sum of its parts.
Could be fun experimenting though I suppose.

Get more time in adjusting the models, microphone positioning, EQ and reverbs (within Pianoteq and external FX).

Reply by brundlefly

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Re: Using Pianoteq modeling to supplement sample libraries?

miiindbullets wrote:

Is there a way (with any edition of Pianoteq) to mute the "primary" piano tone you'd hear when pressing a key, and just model the secondary sounds (sympathetic resonance, duplex, mechanical noises, etc.)? Idea is to layer this with a sample library, similar to what Roland does with their supernatural engine.

Greetings and apologies to the forum in advance if this smacks of any negativity from a total PTQ noob in his first post; I just wanted to share my initial thoughts and impressions insofar as they happen to be relevant to this thread with full acknowledgement that my toes are not even wet up to the cuticle yet. ;^)

I just acquired PTQ 7 Standard yesterday and after my initial foray into playing and tweaking the NY Steinway D I had a similar thought as I love the 'singing' resonances and tone of the high range but am less impressed with the timbre of the midrange and lack of strong attack 'clang' and blooming harmonics in the wound strings that I get from my go-to Roland RD-700NX 'Clear Studio' patch.

I have not tried it yet, but was thinking to radically reduce the level of the fundamental in the Spectrum Profile and try mixing that with the Roland. In my experience, layering acoustic pianos does not typically yield a good result but hope springs eternal that the elusive 'perfect' piano sound will result and it's always fun to try. ;^).

Notwithstanding any initial disappointments, Pianoteq is clearly a highly playable, responsive and tweakable instrument as advertised, and I'm confident I will come to appreciate it for what it is and get many hours of enjoyment from it. I haven't even tried a different preset yet or loaded up the Bechstein!

Cheers,
Dave

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: Using Pianoteq modeling to supplement sample libraries?

brundlefly wrote:
miiindbullets wrote:

Is there a way (with any edition of Pianoteq) to mute the "primary" piano tone you'd hear when pressing a key, and just model the secondary sounds (sympathetic resonance, duplex, mechanical noises, etc.)? Idea is to layer this with a sample library, similar to what Roland does with their supernatural engine.

Greetings and apologies to the forum in advance if this smacks of any negativity from a total PTQ noob in his first post; I just wanted to share my initial thoughts and impressions insofar as they happen to be relevant to this thread with full acknowledgement that my toes are not even wet up to the cuticle yet. ;^)

I just acquired PTQ 7 Standard yesterday and after my initial foray into playing and tweaking the NY Steinway D I had a similar thought as I love the 'singing' resonances and tone of the high range but am less impressed with the timbre of the midrange and lack of strong attack 'clang' and blooming harmonics in the wound strings that I get from my go-to Roland RD-700NX 'Clear Studio' patch.

I have not tried it yet, but was thinking to radically reduce the level of the fundamental in the Spectrum Profile and try mixing that with the Roland. In my experience, layering acoustic pianos does not typically yield a good result but hope springs eternal that the elusive 'perfect' piano sound will result and it's always fun to try. ;^).

Notwithstanding any initial disappointments, Pianoteq is clearly a highly playable, responsive and tweakable instrument as advertised, and I'm confident I will come to appreciate it for what it is and get many hours of enjoyment from it. I haven't even tried a different preset yet or loaded up the Bechstein!

Cheers,
Dave

I'm guessing you meant you haven't tried a different sound pack?
If not then at the very least you really, REALLY need to listen through all the presets.
After that start playing with microphone positions and the various EQs I suggest before looking at the mechanical elements of the pianos themselves. Of course you can literally do any of it in any order. The OP might be surprised for instance by how much can be pulled out by EQ alone.

Seriously there are so many ways to alter the sound in Pianoteq in every version, but especially Standard and Pro.

If you are on Standard or Pro try the FXP corner too.

Reply by brundlefly

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Re: Using Pianoteq modeling to supplement sample libraries?

Key Fumbler wrote:

I'm guessing you meant you haven't tried a different sound pack?
If not then at the very least you really, REALLY need to listen through all the presets.
After that start playing with microphone positions and the various EQs I suggest before looking at the mechanical elements of the pianos themselves. Of course you can literally do any of it in any order. The OP might be surprised for instance by how much can be pulled out by EQ alone.

Seriously there are so many ways to alter the sound in Pianoteq in every version, but especially Standard and Pro.

If you are on Standard or Pro try the FXP corner too.

Yes, thanks. All true and I will definitely be doing all of that in short order.

Reply by miiindbullets

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Re: Using Pianoteq modeling to supplement sample libraries?

Key Fumbler wrote:

The OP might be surprised for instance by how much can be pulled out by EQ alone.

Yeah, I think it's probably just my own ignorance right now regarding sound design/engineering. I do like the sounds I've been able to get from Pianoteq thus far, and am not unhappy with it at all!

I tend to find a preset that approximates what I'm after, and I'll tweak and tweak and tweak, but certain registers still sound nasally or overly metallic while the rest has exactly the sound I'm shooting for. I just upgraded to Pro to play around with the per-note settings, and am looking forward to spending some time digging into the new models I got (Bluethner and the Kremseggs). Sample libraries don't sound quite as sterile to my ear as what I've been able to get out of Pianoteq, so I was thinking morphing something modern with an older model might give a little more character.

I like your suggestion to play around with EQs/verbs. Thanks all!

Last edited by miiindbullets (01-04-2022 21:20)
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Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: Using Pianoteq modeling to supplement sample libraries?

The free (to registered Pianoteq users) KIVIR package also has the Pleyel and Errard pianos that blend well with modern models.

Reply by miiindbullets

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Re: Using Pianoteq modeling to supplement sample libraries?

Key Fumbler wrote:

The free (to registered Pianoteq users) KIVIR package also has the Pleyel and Errard pianos that blend well with modern models.

Awesome, thank you!

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Reply by dv

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Re: Using Pianoteq modeling to supplement sample libraries?

brundlefly wrote:
miiindbullets wrote:

Is there a way (with any edition of Pianoteq) to mute the "primary" piano tone you'd hear when pressing a key, and just model the secondary sounds (sympathetic resonance, duplex, mechanical noises, etc.)? Idea is to layer this with a sample library, similar to what Roland does with their supernatural engine.

Greetings and apologies to the forum in advance if this smacks of any negativity from a total PTQ noob in his first post; I just wanted to share my initial thoughts and impressions insofar as they happen to be relevant to this thread with full acknowledgement that my toes are not even wet up to the cuticle yet. ;^)

I just acquired PTQ 7 Standard yesterday and after my initial foray into playing and tweaking the NY Steinway D I had a similar thought as I love the 'singing' resonances and tone of the high range but am less impressed with the timbre of the midrange and lack of strong attack 'clang' and blooming harmonics in the wound strings that I get from my go-to Roland RD-700NX 'Clear Studio' patch.

I have not tried it yet, but was thinking to radically reduce the level of the fundamental in the Spectrum Profile and try mixing that with the Roland. In my experience, layering acoustic pianos does not typically yield a good result but hope springs eternal that the elusive 'perfect' piano sound will result and it's always fun to try. ;^).

Notwithstanding any initial disappointments, Pianoteq is clearly a highly playable, responsive and tweakable instrument as advertised, and I'm confident I will come to appreciate it for what it is and get many hours of enjoyment from it. I haven't even tried a different preset yet or loaded up the Bechstein!

Cheers,
Dave

First, I always increase, sometimes to the maximum, the hammer noise, and that solves the attack part. For the blooming of the wound strings, if I understand you correctly, this sounds very similar to my problem, which I described at https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=8969

People gave me some suggestions there and it helped a bit but, to put it bluntly (hope not to offend anybody), the timbre of the wound strings in pianoteq is a bit disappointing. The best that I have been able to improve is by using layering of two pianos: one dramatically super-bright (increasing all three hammer harnesses a lot), and another "normal", with the note-by-note volume gradually shifting from one piano to the other (bright one in the bass, obviously). That is very tedious to do, since I feel I need to do that for every single preset.

On the other hand, at the moment I do have an acoustic piano, but I don't have a digital (long story), so I have not used pianoteq for a while. Eventually I will get my digital back and will restart experimenting -- and hopefully somebody would have solved in a better way this problem which really bothers me.

Other than this (and another occasional issue which I'll talk about another day), I think pianoteq is great and perhaps the best virtual piano out there.

Where do I find a list of all posts I upvoted? :(

Reply by miiindbullets

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Re: Using Pianoteq modeling to supplement sample libraries?

Wow, thanks for the tip on the KIVIR package. I didn't think about needing to reinstall those packs after I upgraded. This preset used it:https://forum.modartt.com/file/4seoq3e6
That's exactly the kind of sound I've been after.

Last edited by miiindbullets (02-04-2022 04:44)
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Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: Using Pianoteq modeling to supplement sample libraries?

miiindbullets wrote:

Wow, thanks for the tip on the KIVIR package. I didn't think about needing to reinstall those packs after I upgraded. This preset used it:https://forum.modartt.com/file/4seoq3e6
That's exactly the kind of sound I've been after.

The ability to blend and combine physical models is a real game changer. So many ways to shape sounds in synthesis now. Sample players are so limiting by comparison.