Topic: Korg B2

Hello everybody,

first I thought I have to return my new Korg B2.

But then it turned out to be just an external problem. The USB cable between the B2 and my Laptop was too long. With a shorter 1.5 m cable instead of 3 m the strange resets on my USB bus and my Audiointerface (Focusrite 2i2 gen2) disappeared.

So I can loose a few words about that Digital Piano.

Most DP actions - even modern - feel sluggish to me, especially at faster tempi or chords. The B2 has a slightly lighter and quicker responding action - after my hand injury a welcome feature. It is still a graded hammer action.

With under 400 EUR and its new USB MIDI interface I decided to give it a try as my Pianoteq controller. Under Linux the B2 MIDI is instantly detected and usable. As with every other MIDI keyboard I will have to design an individual velocity curve (this is crucial!!!).

I like the radical design of the Korg B2. No fake let-off, no fake ebony, no fake ivory, no leds other than Power, ahhhh. A simply molded "Pivot", similar to the Yamaha GHS action, but much longer. This construction stabilizes the keys very effectively. And it is the quietest action I ever heard. Having semi-open headphones and neighbours this is nice to have.

Reduced-to-the-max it weighs just 11,4 kg.

An interesting feature for some of us Pianoteq users could be the also integrated USB Audiointerface in the B2!

Pianoteq can output USB Audio directly to the B2 and its internal speakers. Under Linux it works out of the box and the detected Korg Audiointerface has 24bit/48kHz. It seems to have a very good latency in a quick test. Even without using jackd I could drive it with "64 samples (1.3 ms)" directly to alsa.

Potentially nice for SoC-Platforms like Raspberry Pi having the dual USB-MIDI and -Audio already in the slab.

The only MIDI function of the Korg B2 I'm using at the moment is "Local off"

Cheers

Last edited by groovy (16-10-2020 21:41)

Re: Korg B2

That sounds good groovy - haven't looked at Korg for ages - but like some of those features, hope you enjoy

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: Korg B2

groovy wrote:

Hello everybody,

first I thought I have to return my new Korg B2.

But then it turned out to be just an external problem. The USB cable between the B2 and my Laptop was too long. With a shorter 1.5 m cable instead of 3 m the strange resets on my USB bus and my Audiointerface (Focusrite 2i2 gen2) disappeared.

So I can loose a few words about that Digital Piano.

Most DP actions - even modern - feel sluggish to me, especially at faster tempi or chords. The B2 has a slightly lighter and quicker responding action - after my hand injury a welcome feature. It is still a graded hammer action.

With under 400 EUR and its new USB MIDI interface I decided to give it a try as my Pianoteq controller. Under Linux the B2 MIDI is instantly detected and usable. As with every other MIDI keyboard I will have to design an individual velocity curve (this is crucial!!!).

I like the radical design of the Korg B2. No fake let-off, no fake ebony, no fake ivory, no leds other than Power, ahhhh. A simply molded "Pivot", similar to the Yamaha GHS action, but much longer. This construction stabilizes the keys very effectively. And it is the quietest action I ever heard. Having semi-open headphones and neighbours this is nice to have.

Reduced-to-the-max it weighs just 11,4 kg.

An interesting feature for some of us Pianoteq users could be the also integrated USB Audiointerface in the B2!

Pianoteq can output USB Audio directly to the B2 and its internal speakers. Under Linux it works out of the box and the detected Korg Audiointerface has 24bit/48kHz. It seems to have a very good latency in a quick test. Even without using jackd I could drive it with "64 samples (1.3 ms)" directly to alsa.

Potentially nice for SoC-Platforms like Raspberry Pi having the dual USB-MIDI and -Audio already in the slab.

The only MIDI function of the Korg B2 I'm using at the moment is "Local off"

Cheers



Korg B2 + Pianoteq = Amazing Piano!

Respeito, Esforço e Sabedoria

Re: Korg B2

Just found, that the Korg B2 supports "quarter-pedaling" for sustain.

With the triple pedal unit Korg PU-2 I get four controller values:

0, 38, 74, 127.

I don't have a clue, how this is implemented technologically (?!)

Do you know other digital pianos, that are using 4 steps?

Re: Korg B2

That seems really good groovy! My soft spot for Korg aside, I like the idea of more definition like that - unfortunately I'm not aware of other dpianos or tech taking advantage of that for damper pedal.

I like seeing my pedal data on the sust. pedal pane - so maybe, if I could upgrade to a pedal offering 4 or more states for the damper pedal, then maybe a special pane for that in Pianoteq would become valuable.

Cheers

[Edit to add].. wow, just revisited and I see I mistakenly thought you meant damper pedal! Ooops, sorry about that.

Last edited by Qexl (10-04-2021 18:09)
Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: Korg B2

groovy wrote:

Just found, that the Korg B2 supports "quarter-pedaling" for sustain.

With the triple pedal unit Korg PU-2 I get four controller values:

0, 38, 74, 127.

I don't have a clue, how this is implemented technologically (?!)

Do you know other digital pianos, that are using 4 steps?

I have a Roland FP-10, which outputs only three values for sustain, 0, 127, and something around 60, can't remember exactly.  So literally supports "half pedaling", I guess.  This, or the 4 value setup in Korg B2, is simply a cost-cutting measure, and maybe more a purposeful "feature reducing" measure (to get you to buy more expensive model) than actually cost-cutting.  In any case, the splitting up of the analog signal into digital midi messages can be less precise if you only need to split the analog signal to three or four values, as compared to 128. 

I'm not often playing things that require better, but if I am I get my Yamaha Reface CP keyboard, which supports 0-127 sustain values, and run the sustain pedal through it.   Pianoteq doesn't care where the sustain pedal input is coming from.  In this case I have midi inputs into my pc from both the FP-10 and the Yamaha Reface, and Pianoteq can get midi messages from both.  I only do sustain from the Reface, which works seamlessly to alter the keypress midi messages from the FP-10.  In other words, it gives me a full-range "continuous" sustain pedal when playing the FP-10.

There are single-purpose solutions focused on converting a sustain pedals analog signal to "fully continuous" midi values ranging from 0 to 127.  This one looks good to me and is $54:  https://www.audiofront.net/MIDIExpression.php

Last edited by hesitz (10-04-2021 17:11)

Re: Korg B2

hesitz wrote:

I have a Roland FP-10, which outputs only three values for sustain, 0, 127, and something around 60, can't remember exactly.

I also have an FP-10, connected to a Roland RD-300GX. When pushing the pedal down slowly, I see MIDI values like 1, 3, 4, 6, 8, 9, 11, 13... fewer values if I press more quickly.

The limitation of three values is due to the device to which your pedal is connected. The FP-10 itself is continuous; it's an analog device. (Essentially the same as an expression pedal, just in a different physical configuration.) The device into which you plug it determines how the analog control voltage from the pedal is converted into digital MIDI values. Unless...

The FP-10 does have a slide switch that takes it out of continuous mode. In my setup, it doesn't work perfectly; I get a few intermediate values between 0 and 127, and they're not consistent from one press to the next. I'm guessing that the "Switch" setting is not meant to make it act like a switch when connected to a device that supports a continuous damper pedal, but rather to make it work more reliably when connected to a device that expects a switch-type damper pedal.

Is it possible that you have the slide switch in the downward ("Switch") position instead of the upward ("Continuous") position?

Re: Korg B2

Thanks, hesitz, for the info about the FP-10. That's why I'm surprised about the four discrete values of the B2 / PU-2 combi.

In my primary rig I'm using a continuous sustain-pedal with USB, that I built a few years ago -> Standalone continuous sustain pedal?

Since that day I'm spoiled and can't stand playing an on/off pedal any more . There is just a strange quirk with Pianoteq's Rhodes (and Wurlis too IRC) and this continuous pedal, sometimes it "yowls". I don't have this artifact with the Grand presets, here continuous pedaling works as it should.

With the "quarter-pedaling" the e-pianos presets work flawless and it seems 4 values are "just good enough" for a sustain pedal. The keyboard feel of the B2 reminds me a bit of a real Rhodes, that's why I needed another sustain solution. Another point is, continuous controllers are making much traffic on the MIDI-Bus and my B2-setup is based on a Raspberry Pi400, so I want to keep everything lean.

I have not opened the PU-2 pedal, but it seems to have steps of 0 Ohm, 5 kOHm, 10 kOhm and infinite at the two wires. So it is probably not a potentiometer inside. How could it be constructed?

Re: Korg B2

Coises, did you mix up the  keyboard FP-10 with the pedal DP-10

Re: Korg B2

groovy wrote:

With the "quarter-pedaling" the e-pianos presets work flawless and it seems 4 values are "just good enough" for a sustain pedal. The keyboard feel of the B2 reminds me a bit of a real Rhodes, that's why I needed another sustain solution. Another point is, continuous controllers are making much traffic on the MIDI-Bus and my B2-setup is based on a Raspberry Pi400, so I want to keep everything lean.

I have not opened the PU-2 pedal, but it seems to have steps of 0 Ohm, 5 kOHm, 10 kOhm and infinite at the two wires. So it is probably not a potentiometer inside. How could it be constructed?

I can see how the four values of B2 sustain are "just enough".  The three values of FP-10 seem much improved over on/off switch, but "not quite enough".

Regarding midi traffic, midi is so lightweight I can't imagine it's a problem on any RPi, much less an RPi400, which is actually pretty powerful.  So I doubt that's an issue; but I'm also sure there are ways to limit the granularity of midi messages being sent to Pianoteq, e.g., to 5 sustain messages/second, or 20/second, or whatever, not sure what would make you comfortable.  Haven't checked, but that sort of message limiting might be part of the software setup for the Audiofront convert device I linked.  Or, somewhere, I expect there is a ready-made or constructable utility app on Linux that you could route sustain midi messages through and have excess messages filtered out before forwarding only a subset to Pianoteq. But I highly doubt that's needed.  I think this is a case where the number of messages sounds like a lot to a human, but to the computer it's child's play; in any case, something to actually check in action on the computer before you decide it can't handle it.

I have no idea about the hardware implementation of continous or 4-discrete position sustain pedals.  With the FP-10, and the DP-10 continuous pedal I use, the DP-10 is a fully continous pedal; it's the hardware and/or software in the FP-10 that limits it to 3 midi values.  I sort of assume it's the same with Korg B2, or it would not function properly with non-proprietary continuous sustain pedals.  But if the B2 has a proprietary sustain pedal connector and is usable only with specific Korg pedal, then maybe pedal is implemented with multiple discrete values.  But my guess would be that it's same as FP-10, takes an actual continous analog input, which it splits into a very limited number of midi values.

Last edited by hesitz (10-04-2021 23:15)

Re: Korg B2

hesitz wrote:

midi is so lightweight

Of course. It is just the MIDI limitation of ~1 event/ms, that makes overly continuous controller events a rival to tight midi performance.

The granularity is an optimization problem, too less is insensitive, too much pollutes the midi slots. All of that is worked out in detail in the forum thread I linked (btw I used a DP-10 and a Teensy microcontroller there).

The connector of the Korg B2 is proprietary, so it can be something completely unusual - that's why I asked in the beginning, if other digital pianos using 4 discrete steps are known. Roland is not one them apparently, thanks.

The sustain pedal in the PU-2 unit is not continuous, measured it has ~0 Ohm, 5k, 10k, open. I guess that is not just a coincidence (-> 0, 38, 74, 127 midi). I just hoped, something is already know about that switch logic (or what else is in such a pedal unit).

I guess I have to open it in the next few days

Last edited by groovy (11-04-2021 00:16)

Re: Korg B2

groovy wrote:

Coises, did you mix up the  keyboard FP-10 with the pedal DP-10

Yes, indeed I did.

Re: Korg B2

Ahh, it has triple-sensors with rubber/silicone contacts! Same principle known from keyboards:

https://i.postimg.cc/FsxrZZCK/Korg-PU-2-quarter-pedaling.jpg

I guess the first button connects a 10k resistor, the second another 10k in parallel (=5k) and the third short-circuits. Smart IMHO, no wearing like a pot and a sufficient 2-bit-resolution for sustain.

Just the pivot is a bit short for pedaling near the fallboard ...

Re: Korg B2

In a parallel thread another Pianoteq user had an idea to check the regularity of the MIDI responses of his Roland keyboard. The idea had been to use "a straight wooden bar to press all the keys at the same time and at the same speed".

I own a Korg B2 so I repeated this experiment with it and post it here:

https://i.postimg.cc/8PsjZ3xX/Korg-B2-all-keys-pressed-with-a-plank-example2.png

Seems to be consistent with an accentuation in the higher weighted lower register. I don't know, if an acoustic piano is more regular.