Standalone continuous sustain pedal? (Page 1 of 2)

Thank you, I see... They ask $149 for it. And they mention a couple of pedals which are a kind of "expression controllers". Which exact models of piano type continuous pedals exists on a market that can be connected to that device? Do you know them, can you be so kind to tell?

Thank you.

Indeed, the Roland DP10 has a pot inside. It has a switch at the underside to switch between continuous and on-off. Probably this is the best solution.

Of course one can build his own unit, and use a CC to Midi converter print, but not everybody has enough electronics exeprience, and besides it gets not as smooth as the DP10 en also more expensive.

It is also not clear, if you decide to have a continuous controller wiht Midi output, if your piano software responds to it, when it was developed for on-off control.

Greetings,

Geert

The sustain on most electronic pianos is simply just an "on / off".  On an acousitic you could lower the dampers more slowly, but in the end, I don't think it makes a great deal of difference.  It sounds like you want some sort of fade out on the dampers or the sustain, but even on a good acoustic it's only marginal at best.  Of course there will always be some pianist who disagrees.  What's probably more important, is a good three pedal set-up that mimics an actual grand:  the center pedal sustaining an individual note. and the left creating a timbre / volume change when pressed.

Thinking about this more,  the real issue is string resonance when the damper is pressed, and that is something that is missing in most digital pianos.  Presumably Pianoteq has this or it wouldn't sound so realistic.  What you would want is diminished string resonance as the pedal was released.  It also may be possible to achieve some sort of thuddy muted piano tone by barely pressing the damper pedal on an acoustic piano.  Most likely this is rarely used, but not beyond the realm of possibility.

Honestly in my opinion you are wasting your time.  It's more worthwhile to figure out how to keep whatever pedal you already have from sliding around on the floor.

  I have my Casio pedal velcroed to a heavy 1/4"  steel plate with silicone feet on the bottom.  It doesn't move on any surface be it wood, vinyl, or carpet.  My Casio PX-150 doesn't have damper resonance, but it does have a really stupid damper off noise which is rather unrealistic in my opinion.

Great find, thank you! I hope the Pianoteq website team should update their F.A.Q. page on this topic, since now their answer is very incomplete and  leads to non existent webpage and out of production hardware.

Hello, Akm! Don't you consider to buy Casio factory 3-pedal unit for Px-150? SP-33. It supports half-pedal operation and, as I see, is available in most russian shops)

Has anyone here tried the Roland RPU-3 and was satisified with its performance and reliability, or knows if it is better than that Kawai unit? I've been thinking of purchasing one to go with that four-input midi box I posted, but I want to check first so I don't waste money.

I doubt the audiofront interfaces are merge boxes like the MIDI Solutions Pedal Controller. As far as I understand it the audiofront is put between the pedal and USB or (with an additional USB-MIDI-interface) MIDI IN of the keyboard. With the internal sound it may work but for triggering external devices all MIDI signals have to be merged and sent via MIDI OUT or USB. If this is possible at all it requires a keyboard with at least MIDI IN and OUT or two USB connections. The Casio CDP-130 and PX-150 only have one USB.

With the MIDI Solutions Pedal Controller you only need a MIDI OUT or USB and MIDI-USB-interfaces or MIDI cables, depending on your setup.

Or am I wrong?

It seems possible to use it in conjunction with any midi keyboard. Please do verify if that's the case.

And the sustain pedal is said to be not continuous but only has three steps (OFF, HALF, ON) (http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthre...ost2167459)

AKM's problem is multilayer. His PX-150 has only one USB and one on/off sustain pedal input. Since he wants to upgrade and interpreting his reaction I don't think he's interested simply in a better on/off sustain pedal. Since his ideal is an "independent MIDI USB device" he needs a proper continuous pedal AND a device which MIDIfies it. If he wants to use Pianoteq he needs something like the MIDI Solutions Pedal Controller.

Maybe others should take over since I'm not sure. Maybe the signals can be merged inside the computer as you describe it. This would be great when I think about live use since the signal from the keyboard wasn't interrupted. As backup I could let the on/off sustain pedal plugged for playing the internal sound in case of emergency.

Well, I'm no MIDI geek.

Does that mean that the single audiofront interface is the right choice if I just want to have continuous sustain in Pianoteq?

gpp-3 went out of production a long time ago and in any case had a poor quality reputation.

I am still stuck with wanting the 3 pedals that are the norm for (north american) pianos.
I will probably end up with a Roland RPU-3, maybe a used one on the assumption that it will eventually become noisy so I will then tear it apart and re-buid it with hall effects devices ANYWAY.

Yes, it supports half-pedal operation.

But it is not _continuous_ half-pedal.  There are only three positions:

. . . Dampers up ("pedal down")

. . . Half-pedal;

. . . Dampers down ("pedal up").

The decay time of "half-pedal" is set using the PX-150 menu.

The PX-350 works in the same way.

For the PX-350 (and I assume for the PX-150), when the pedal is moved into "half-pedal" position, a MIDI event is sent to Pianoteq.  And Pianoteq interprets it correctly -- it lets the dampers touch the strings, gently.
The PX-350 "half-pedal" menu setting controls the value of the MIDI message.

It works, but it's _not_ "just like an acoustic piano".

.       Charles

1.) Another option for those who like to tinker a bit could be this raw MIDI controller:
Doepfer We Wheel Electronic
This module has 4 analog inputs that can be connected with analog potis. Chances are good  the poti in a Roland DP-10 is appropriate, because it serves also just as a high-Ohm voltage divider.

On the german edition of that site a user-manual is linked for details:
http://images5.static-thomann.de/pics/a...eitung.pdf

2.) Or would it be possible to rip a universal midi-controller like Korg nanokontrol 2 and to replace one of its pots with a continuous foot-controller?? :-)

cheers

As chance would have it, I just got an RPU-3 to complement an older stage piano I continue to use when playing pieces for two pianos. Since my main keyboard now is a VPC-1, I can directly compare it with the Kawai (though obviously I cannot say anything about longer-term reliabilty, yet). I am actually using the Doepfer wheel electronics mentioned in this thread (if you are able to solder, connecting the wires they deliver with regular 6.3 mm phone sockets - three-pronged and having an opening switch to indicate whether anything is plugged in - is not a big deal).

As for a direct comparison (i.e. connecting the RPU-3 to the VPC-1's MIDI IN via the Doepfer box), while I have noticed neither any improvement nor impediment in playing using either set of pedals, the Roland ones have a somewhat sturdier feel, though part of that may be due to the larger height of the Roland unit (they also seem to have slightly more resistance, i.e. stronger springs, but whether that is just due to the unit being very new remains to be seen). When moving the pedals by hand, there is some leeway to the sides, but this is not noticeable in actual use. The total distance they travel is about the same (there is a short "dead band" where the values are always 0 or 127, respectively, both between fully released and slightly pressed and between most of the way down to fully pushed, this seems more centered in the Roland, the Kawai - where this obviously only applies to the right pedal - has to go slightly further down before leaving the zero range), but with the Roland I get a slightly better feeling of controlling how far down I pushed them. Whether you prefer their form is a matter of taste, I guess - but depending on what shoes you wear while playing, you may find that your feet will touch when having them on the sostenuto and sustain pedals. If you prefer more space, the outward curve of the outer panels on the Kawai (really Fatar) unit has a definite advantage in that camp.

For now, I think when playing alone I'll be trying out the Roland for a while to decide which unit I prefer for daily use, and I'll follow up on this post in a month or two...

Best,
Daniel

CONGRATS !!!

My FFF {or "3D printer" to the masses} is what has kept me from practice since early July (-:

Tell me what you want made up and I'll give it a try, but I can tell you ahead of time that a simple electronics "project box" in plastic will be easier/simpler/quicker and quite cheap - even a "Tupperware" or "Zip-lok" sandwich box from the local WalMart would protect it from the rigors of gigging.

EDIT:
I think you are probably in Europe, I am in USA, so making up a box and sending it to you would make sense only if you have no alternatives.
... and WalMart, Tupperware, Zip-Lok probably don't relate to your local market ?
(-:

That looks like a nice box and the price is OK.
I would probably go even cheaper, e.g. a plastic sandwich box from a grocery store.
Easy to cut, or melt holes in with a soldering iron

Thank you. Until the enclosure arrives, I'll use the following (ugly) work-around :-)

So ... finished. The wiring has changed, because I found out, that I don't need an external 5V-power-supply.
I can use the 5 V input reference-voltage of the Wheel Electronic! All I need now is a stereo-cable to transport 5 V, GND and the sensor-output. The resulting MIDI-Signal for sustain has a range between 0 and 125.

Have a nice day

There are 'Arduino nano's around, small systems-on-a-chip for ~10 EUR. Being opensource hard- and software, these can be programmed and flashed with every PC. I recently started my very first project with a nano and was able to convert the analog output of a Roland DP-10 Sustain-Pedal to MIDI:

Thank you, geert!
I thought about your proposal too, but at the moment I tend more to the modular and non-invasive approach. Several pedals or other custom controllers can be combined this way.  But indeed there are further ways to strip the setup down: It is possible to send the MIDI data over the USB-Port directly. But then a process on the PC has to receive these serial data and to present it as an MIDI-Input to the Operating System. I found a nice little software (20 kB), that does exactly this: ttymidi

I start ttymidi from the command-line and pianoteq then lists an additional MIDI device named "ttymidi". The incoming sustain data from ttymidi are automatically merged by pianoteq with my USB-keyboard data on the second USB-port of my netbook.

Pros:
+ no external powersupply needed (5V supplied by USB from the netbook).
+ no additional MIDI-to-USB-Interface required.
+ no 5-pin DIN-cable required.
+ simplification.

Cons:
- 5V from USB is eventually* not as stable as a recommend external Vin of 7-12 V for the Arduino nano.

(*I observed that a static hold pedal-position can result in a "fluttering" controller-value, e.g. if the pedal is full down for a longer period, the output can flutter between 126 and 127. This is not really a problem for the MIDI-bandwidth, but these are unnecessary events. With the external power-supply I presented in the blue-box foto, the events seem to be always deterministic, e.g. 127 statically in this situation. I guess a small change in the program code could work-around it easily if needed).

Have a nice day