Topic: Can normally static parameters become dynamic?

There are some things, such as lid position, that don't vary while a physical piano is being played. That is what I mean by a static parameter. However, I can imagine assigning lid position to a MIDI control knob and opening or closing the lid while a DAW plays a performance. That would be what I mean by a dynamic parameter.

I don't think I can do this today, so this is something of a feature request.

I can imagine wanting to do something like the following: the softer you play, the smaller the room is. The louder you play, the longer the string length. Basically, more parameters become performance-driven, if that is desired.

I don't know how this could be implemented in the Pianoteq engine. In some synths, you have a modulation matrix that lets you patch together inputs and outputs. Or you could view it as having two pianos/rooms and being able to play anywhere on the morph between them (let's say 128 points between them) if that allows the engine to precalculate things.

I know real-time modeling can do emulate a physical instrument, but I also know it can go beyond what a physical instrument can do, or be.

Re: Can normally static parameters become dynamic?

Hey dvunkannon,

dvunkannon wrote:

Can normally static parameters become dynamic?

Absolutely - the good news is, you can do exactly what you imagine

If you click "Options" button (top right of interface), select the MIDI tab and get a view of all the controller interface options there.

For an example of changing piano lid position in this case, with your dpiano's "Modulation wheel":

First click "Insert" (bottom right of MIDI panel) to add a new control row - and it shows a new row at top with "Invalid" in the left column button.

Since I want to hook up the Mod wheel there, I need to know its "Controller number" so..

to find that, just look above the columns at the live MIDI data readout, and move the modulation wheel.. in my case it's "Controller 1" - any note or control already hooked up by default will be logged and read out here.

Easy as that, I now know its number, so can go ahead and hook it up.

To do that, click the "Invalid" button.. and in the pop up menu, select "Control Change" / then "Controller 1". Done.

Now, we're ready to tell Pianoteq what to do when we move our Mod wheel set as Controller 1..

Next click the blank button one column over now, and that opens a smorgasboard of internals to hook up with the Mod wheel


So, to finish this particular trick, just seek through the menu that pops up:

"Set Parameter" at top / then choose "Output" / and finally "Lid Position" (some parameters may be refined by changing default 1 to 100 values to a certain narrower range and so on too. Leaving at default 0 - 1.00 for this.)

That's all.. et Voila!

You now can play piano, and open and close the lid with the modulation wheel.  - (or a pedal if you hook one up instead and more of course). BTW, if you open the "Output panel" while you play, you can see the lid animating from closed to open state too

And any MIDI controller items you use for automation (or anything you 'paint in' in a DAW) can similarly be hooked up to either perform with in real time, or later in post production automation.

The list of things you can alter this way or with more knobs and pedals is astounding.

Hope this changes your world!

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: Can normally static parameters become dynamic?

It would be funny, use the piano lid in a pedal, as midi control, making the piano like the mouth of a talking puppet.
:-)

By the way, I wonder why we can't remove the lid, make it more than fully open, like in recording studios when they take the lif off.

PunBB bbcode test


The point of mic relatade to the lid, when the mic it's close to the lid, and one more few inches it would pass through it, should have more effect, since the mic after 3 inches would be on the other side and have the lid as a barrier.

I ask people with prime speakers/monitors or a 5.1 system with good speakers, to make the test:

-Place the mic very close to ther lid edge, test the the sound.
-Now place the mic just a little bit more in the direction of the lid, to pass through it, so it will be very close to the lid but in the other side.  And test the sound
-Compare both sound results.

Last edited by Beto-Music (10-12-2020 16:31)

Re: Can normally static parameters become dynamic?

Qexl wrote:

Hey dvunkannon,
Snip...
Now, we're ready to tell Pianoteq what to do when we move our Mod wheel set as Controller 1..

Next click the blank button one column over now, and that opens a smorgasboard of internals to hook up with the Mod wheel

Snip...
The list of things you can alter this way or with more knobs and pedals is astounding.

Hope this changes your world!

Mind. Blown.

So the only thing from my OP not covered by this is actually changing these parameter values with a velocity or note on, but in a DAW environment, this is amazing control! No sampled piano with any set of outboard processing can do this.

Re: Can normally static parameters become dynamic?

Lifting/lowering the lid reminds me of the desperate attempts to provide dynamics in the late days of the harpsichord.  The "Venetian Swell" was one such device. You lifted a lower lid which resembled a venetian blind. You could either open/close the blinds or lift the whole lid. By foot pedal, but lifting the whole thing took some force. (A good workout for one leg!) You can - or could - see examples at Fenton House in London.

As a harpsichord player for many years, I can allow myself the amusement of such a device trying to stave off the inexorable rise of the fortepiano.

Re: Can normally static parameters become dynamic?

dvunkannon wrote:

Mind. Blown.

Ah, that's practically my default state with Pianoteq

In the MIDI panel, click the word "Minimalistic" and in the drop-down select "Full featured" - a lot of elements pre-hooked.

Pianoteq in all sincerity, is pretty jammed with mind-blowing excellent engineering.

dvunkannon wrote:

changing these parameter values with a velocity or note on

I remember suggesting this in the forum in the past, and it elicited mixed comments IIRC (I don't think it appeals to majority of pianists very understandably) - but, time marches and now we have morphing/layering tools.. so could be something possible in future.?

Could be something possible with 'Cantabile' or 'Gig Performer' software? (I don't use those so do not know for sure.. although I would have really taken to these in my youth).

sandalholme wrote:

Lifting/lowering the lid reminds me of the desperate attempts to provide dynamics in the late days of the harpsichord.  The "Venetian Swell" was one such device. You lifted a lower lid which resembled a venetian blind. You could either open/close the blinds or lift the whole lid. By foot pedal, but lifting the whole thing took some force. (A good workout for one leg!) You can - or could - see examples at Fenton House in London.

As a harpsichord player for many years, I can allow myself the amusement of such a device trying to stave off the inexorable rise of the fortepiano.

Gosh that's superb, I can imagine the costumes and fantastic elegance, the instrumentalists of the time 'showing off' this dramatic feature

Haven't come across it before.. just a delight to read this, thank you so much sandalholme.

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: Can normally static parameters become dynamic?

Qexl wrote:
dvunkannon wrote:

Mind. Blown.

Ah, that's practically my default state with Pianoteq

In the MIDI panel, click the word "Minimalistic" and in the drop-down select "Full featured" - a lot of elements pre-hooked.

Pianoteq in all sincerity, is pretty jammed with mind-blowing excellent engineering.

dvunkannon wrote:

changing these parameter values with a velocity or note on

I remember suggesting this in the forum in the past, and it elicited mixed comments IIRC (I don't think it appeals to majority of pianists very understandably) - but, time marches and now we have morphing/layering tools.. so could be something possible in future.?

Modeling classic pianos makes so many _other_ instruments possible!
Once you allow straight and crossed strings, I'm pretty sure the internal geometry of the piano is completely arbitrary to the engine. The strings could be placed in a circle, to bring them closer together. It is all a question of surfacing the parameters in a user interface.

Re: Can normally static parameters become dynamic?

dvunkannon wrote:

It is all a question of surfacing the parameters in a user interface.

Here you have hit the nail on the head.

Since its earliest inception, Philippe and Julien have worked from that exact perspective

My first brain was exploded and had to be replaced around 2014

They'd already had so much of this stuff blueprinted or implemented, for a good deal of time beforehand.

I really like the idea of having velocity 'touch' the MIDI params - it's killer IMHO.

Maybe I'm overlooking a way to do it? Love to learn how.

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: Can normally static parameters become dynamic?

Qexl wrote:

I really like the idea of having velocity 'touch' the MIDI params - it's killer IMHO.

Here's a quick way to imagine it in the Pianoteq Midi map interface:
Column 1 accepts velocity and note on in addition to Controller 1-119.
Column 2 accepts Controller 1-119 in addition to all the parameters, etc.
The velocity or note on value (0-127) is inherited by the Controller if they have been linked, and mapped to the appropriate range.

So
Controller 1; (any); Wall Distance; 0-6
Note on; (any); Controller 1

With the above map and the assumptions above:
You can move the wall distance with Controller 1, just like you always could.
Every time you play a note, the note's value is passed to Controller 1.
On the next update cycle, Controller 1 changes the value of wall distance (0-127 is scaled to the interval 0-6). The overall effect is that lower notes are played in larger rooms than higher notes.

I assume that the engine just has a queue of controller changes that it processes as fast as possible. All this does is put an event on that queue, instead of the event coming from the Midi controller. This came up in another thread, where pressing the pedal in the UI caused the engine to react, even though it did not create a Midi event. If the UI can queue up an event, it should be possible to remap velocity to queue an event.

Obviously, there is the possibility of creating feedback loops that will mess you up. It was already possible to make Pianoteq do strange and sonically painful things, so this is par for the course, caveat emptor, yada yada yada.

Re: Can normally static parameters become dynamic?

Well put dvunkannon!

If this..

dvunkannon wrote:

Column 1 accepts velocity and note on in addition to Controller 1-119

was possible - very profound super power!

Channel pressure (aftertouch) is in there as an selection.. so there's hope that other components could emerge within that menu


Fabulous thinking!

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: Can normally static parameters become dynamic?

Changing some parameters can sometimes require a recalculation of the model and may take some time.  Therefore, the application of a parameter may be longer than the time the sound is generated from the key press.  But in version 7, changes in parameters are reflected in the sound rather smoothly.  And in this you can find your charms.

Re: Can normally static parameters become dynamic?

scherbakov.al wrote:

Changing some parameters can sometimes require a recalculation of the model and may take some time.  Therefore, the application of a parameter may be longer than the time the sound is generated from the key press.  But in version 7, changes in parameters are reflected in the sound rather smoothly.  And in this you can find your charms.

Yes, if string length and wall distance can already be changed by a controller that is (possibly) changing moment to moment, then velocity and note on should be possible also.

Re: Can normally static parameters become dynamic?

I agree, and I'd like to see more parameters have the "humanize" setting that we have on select action and voicing parameters.  I'd also appreciate a velocity randomizer for things like MIDI Piano Roll playback, since I use the standalone a lot and the only randomize functions that are easily available require a DAW (which I have but it doesn't make it convenient).

At a broader scale, I'd love to see more research going into machine learning to train a MIDI sequencer to reinterpret an input into another style or even genre.  For example, being able to pass a stock, quantize MIDI file of a Chopin waltz and let the software interpret and perform it in the way that Rachmaninoff, Godowsky, or Artur Rubinstein would or even what contemporaries would do with something would be an amazing composition tool.  A tool that gives improv in different styles based on a single input.  Yes, there are some projects that are starting to head in that direction, but there seem to be very few people who have the musical know-how to inform good decisions in building a training database from something like piano rolls--or have the money to commission a database of new MIDI files for the AI training.  (On the one hand, it would give a lot of pianists with nothing to do at the moment some work and income, but it can also scare them away if they decide that it could further put them out of work in the future to have a computer doing what they feel is their unique, human contribution to music.)  As a composer, I'd love the idea, but then getting people to play my music is enough of a challenge that having AI that doesn't quit half-way through a project is an especially appealing option.

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Re: Can normally static parameters become dynamic?

This is all speculation... but it seems to me the parameters that would make sense to control via note on velocity would be the ones exposed in the Note Edit window.  A control point, for example, instead of being a single value, could be interpolated between a ppp value and an fff value.  (Doing it that way, instead of using the velocity directly, would keep the results consistent when the velocity curve is changed.  Hammer hardness apparently works in a similar fashion now.)

Parameters that aren't available as note edits are likely incorporated into the model in such a way that it wouldn't make sense, or even be possible, to give them different values for different notes (e.g., because they are applied in the model after the sounds generated by individual notes are merged).

Last edited by Coises (11-12-2020 20:26)