Three / Triple Sensor Action for use with Pianoteq

Of course there are benefits, then you can perform things like on a real grand piano, simply because triple sensor keybeds do mimic the behavior of grand piano action with escapement more correctly than dual sensor actions.

I honestly completely dislike TP100LR action. I found it too sluggish in practice.

Btw. as I did on the pianoworld forum, I try to revive it a little and maybe finally clarify. Maybe Kawai James could help? Or somebody else with Kawai MP7(SE) or VPC1 or some Casios PX 3-sensors boards.
The question:

If you use your 3-Sensor claimed board as a MIDI Keyboard and connect to Pianoteq or any MIDI monitor, can you play repetitions, i.e. trigger several MIDI "Note On" messages without a MIDI "Note Off" being sent after each note?
I am not able to that with any of SL Keyboards (SL73 Studio and just new arrival SL88 Grand). Always get a "gap" (note off between repeated notes ). So in that regard either the 3rd sensor is not functional at all - so marketing bs - or is pointless/worthless in a MIDI world anyway. And that is pretty pitty as this would be a real "escapement mechanism" for digital piano allowing real repetitions and trills like a grand piano. Which year do we have ? wink
Is there anybody who could check this and report the results?

PS. Btw. I could re-trigger the note audible without gaps on build in MP11SE sound - but this could be due to "damper delay" not necessarily the third sensor wink and with the onboard sounds you can not monitor what actually happens.

Also if checking in Pianoteq, use the MIDI Monitor not the polyphony numbers. Because of the "damper delay". You will get multiple polyphony on i single repeated note, but not due to the third sensor but the damper delay only. Easy to check - if you set the damper delay to minimum, the result is no polyphony on a single note.

Yep my P-515 always sends a Note-Off before the double-escapement Note-On too. My Casio PX-330 does send consecutive Note-Ons though.

I don't think it makes much difference, sonically. The main thing is that the action allows relatively shallow repeats - i.e - the keys don't have to be released very far, before they can be played again.

However, some two-sensor actions have the top sensor rather low down (at almost the same vertical position as the middle sensor of a tri-sensor action), so the whole tri-sensor thing is very subtle indeed I suspect.

Note that even if consecutive Note-Ons ARE transmitted, you may find that your DAW will convert that sequence into Note-On/Note-Off pairs.  The MIDI recorder in Pianoteq is raw, and will not behave like that, as far as I can recall.

Greg.

I think two sensors SHOULD be enough to derive key speed.
Key speed measured at two different intervals, i.e. between sensors 1 & 2, then again between 2 & 3 could represent acceleration, but I think final speed is the only thing that matters.

I'm thinking more parts usually means more failures and more co$t, so if the benefit is only theoretical - why would you want 3 ?

I understand that - and the "ASSUMPTION" that the third sensor is "needed" is based on another assumption, which is that the first (or "top") sensor is placed too high.

If the top sensor is located such that it senses at the right point (maybe ~30% of full key depress ?) then it will "catch" rapid reps.

It is of little interest to me what the actual percentage should be, I believe that the keyboard manufacturers have access to the opinions and preferences of so many top tier pianists that they can determine the optimal position for that "top" sensor.
It well may be that a fixed distance from "bottom" of key travel would be the best choice for consistent production.

I don't think it would be at all difficult to determine this and to get it "right".
Where "right" is good enough for all but maybe the world's top three concert pianists.
The rest of us... three vs two sensors may be the least of our problems.

OTOH, the marketing appeal of "more is better and three is more than two"
is always hard to argue against - the masses will usually opt for "More".

Last week a review triggered a thought about three sensors. I think it might have been on the Nord Grand, but I saw quite a few. I wondered if Keyboards would get to the stage where the senors development had more grades than the three.

A couple of years ago when I bought my keyboard I wasn't even aware of the sensor technology until I saw a review on it, luckily I seem to have the tree as I don't have to let the keys come all the way up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmD2_9APBaE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont...NxacJZXPic

FYI the Nord Grand uses an old Kawai RM3 action. For what it costs, I'd just get a Kawai CA99 which has the new Grand Feel III action... three iterations newer and improved over the RM3. RM3 --> GF --> GFII --> GFIII --> Millenium III (only in Novus NV10)

My guess is that Kawai hasn't updated their promotional materials as the CA99 just showed up at NAMM this year, and with COVID-19, there may be some delays in updating the older guides to the Grand Feel I and Grand Feel II.  I found the following which may help from some of their product description pages and a video from NAMM, but I would like to see more actual information about the changes than just a sales-pitch.

Judging from the video, the opposite end of the key stick is shaped very differently (perhaps to simulate more weight and action movement in a grand) and the sensors appear to be differently positioned and perhaps a different design of sensor altogether.  Unfortunately, the video doesn't get close enough to the action model to read what it says.

From the Kawai CA99 US Product Page: https://kawaius.com/product/ca99/

To provide outstanding performance, the upgraded Grand Feel III keyboard action with Ivory & Ebony Touch key surfaces is combined with an improved Shigeru Kawai SK-EX Rendering piano sound engine (featuring multi-channel sampling and resonance modeling).

NEW: Grand Feel III wooden key keyboard action with Ivory & Ebony Touch key surfaces

Grand Feel III (GFIII) action

- 88 wooden keys
- Grade-weighted hammers
- Ivory Touch white key surfaces
- Ebony Touch black key surfaces
- Let-off simulation
- Triple sensor key detection
- 88-key Graded counterweights

From https://www.kawai-global.com/news/kawai...al-pianos/

Articulating this beautiful SK-EX sound is the brand new Grand Feel III wooden-key keyboard action, which draws upon Kawai’s 90+ years of acoustic piano craftsmanship to provide an exceptionally realistic playing experience.  As with a grand piano, all of the Grand Feel III action’s eighty-eight black and white keys are crafted entirely from long pieces of wood, and pivot on a central balance pin with a smooth, seesaw-like motion.  This natural movement throws grade-weighted metal hammers located at the back of the keyboard, with their individual velocities precisely measured using triple-sensor technology for improved responsiveness and realism.

The Grand Feel III action’s extended wooden keys also boast an extra-long pivot length – matching that of a Kawai acoustic grand piano.  This provides a more consistent touch weight when playing towards the rear of the keyboard, while additional counterweights placed below each key help to further balance the weight of the action during pianissimo passages.  Finally, the Grand Feel III keyboard action also features Kawai’s Ebony & Ivory Touch key surfaces that gently absorb moisture to assist playing control, and possess a natural, matte finish that is smooth, but not slippery.

2020 NAMM Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hYY7rz-b8g

It's also possible that James Pavel Shawcross did a video of Kawai's booth at NAMM that will show up on Youtube soon.  He usually will get into more technical details than the promotional videos.