Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Stephen_Doonan wrote:
Amen Ptah Ra wrote:

I've two (2) renditions of Chopin Etude Opus 10 No. 4, one from Pianoteq, VSL the other:

  1. VSL
    https://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads....ert_RM.mp3

  2. Pianoteq
    https://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads....8XP%29.mp3

My gosh! Although comparisons can sometimes be biased in certain ways, in this particular comparison, the Pianoteq version sounds worlds better to my ears. Thank you for posting this.



Thank you so very much for this post! I must start by saying you play amazingly well!  Thank you!!  I also appreciate the comparison of the two different VST versions.  Pianoteq, in my opinion wins hands down! It has that special acoustic concert hall sound/presentation, as opposed to a more shallow monotone version.  Thank you again!

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

A Cristofori piano perhaps?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2WdjyKQ57A

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

And a lute-harpsichord, with gut strings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4ZRn6Hk8N0

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

I'm thinking the Klavins Una Corda might indeed be a good choice as the next emanation. Seems close to what Pianoteq has constantly been good at.
https://www.klavins-pianos.com/products/una-corda/

Pianoteq Pro Studio with Bösendorfer, Shigeru Kawai and Organteq

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Interesting, that a truly modern piano instrument invention such as the Klavins Una Corda, has no piano lid whatsoever.

What ever new forthcoming piano grand model from MODARTT, it accurately will modelle a physical grand with a lid that is not only easily movable but readily detachable like the many that appear in concert performances worldwide, hopefully.

Last edited by Amen Ptah Ra (18-06-2019 19:25)
Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Oh, let me clarify!  That marvelous Pianoteq rendered Yamaha Disklavier XP MIDI performance of Chopin Etude Opus 10 No. 4, I posted to this thread, ain’t me.  I got it from http://www.piano-e-competition.com/midi_2009.asp#A.

Its performer is Ran Jia.

Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

EvilDragon wrote:

... a Shigeru Kawai SK-EX ...

The Kawai Shigeru Series is on my wishlist too ...*-)

https://shigerukawai.com

Music was my first love. And it will be my last. Music of the future. And music of the past (John Miles)

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Incredible sound...  I wasn't aware of such type of harpsichord.  Sometimes it even remambers a organ, and other times somewhat a piano. 

NathanShirley wrote:

And a lute-harpsichord, with gut strings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4ZRn6Hk8N0

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

NathanShirley wrote:

And a lute-harpsichord, with gut strings.

Absolutely gorgeous looking (and sounding) instrument.  Thanks for posting.

StephenG

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

PunBB bbcode test


https://youtu.be/eVabz8LneI4

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Yes those bass lutes are very impressive instruments! The gut strings really make the sound. Here's a less lute looking lautenwerck (lute-harpsichord -- note the huge resonance chamber under the instrument):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lK8Uthw0W8

Last edited by NathanShirley (18-06-2019 04:34)

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Following the release of Pianoteq v6.5.0 and now subsequently v6.5.2, probably American Steinways are completely unnecessary!

Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

https://davidandersenpianos.com/hamburg...fferences/

"Let’s start with the glaring differences:

• Different wood used in the rim—hardwood, but a different species; in New York Steinways, hard-rock maple is used; in Hamburg Steinways, it’s beech and a different species of maple. So—a different basic, fundamental sound.
• Different finish—the Germans have used polyester for over 30 years, and the Americans have stuck with lacquer—so the Hamburg instruments tend to be shiny, and the New York instruments tend to be satin or semi-gloss
• Different action parts—Hamburg Steinways use Renner parts, the oldest and, most say, the best wooden piano parts maker on the planet, made in Germany for 130 years. New York Steinways use parts made by them, or made by someone (I don’t know who) for them.
• Different kinds and species of spruce in the soundboards—means the essential quality of the ring, bloom, and sustain of the piano are subtly different.
• Different kind of hammers—Hamburg uses the Renner high-compression Weikert felt hammers; New York uses their own proprietary low-compression hammer, probably made out of Bacon felt. The high compression hammers are “opened up” and softened with needles to bring their tone out; the low-compression hammers are treated with hardening solutions and protocols to bring their tone out; very different voicing and attack qualities and procedures are necessary.
• The “arms” look different—the arms, or cheeks, the ends of the piano’s rim that flank the cheekblocks and the keys—are squared off in New York Steinways, and are rounded on Hamburg Steinways.
• Different bass strings—different makers; the German one very small, the American one the biggest in North America. Some, if not most, say the German strings are superior.

Finally, there are tonal differences between the two. New York Steinways have a unique tone that can best be described as “rich” or complex, while their Hamburg counterparts have a “cleaner’ or “crisper” sound. These differences are largely due to the different kinds of hammers the New York and Hamburg Factory use: New York Steinways use a low compression hammer that requires hardening as part of the final factory prepwork. Hamburg Steinways utilize the opposite; a high compression hammer that requires softening to bring it to its full tonal potential. Additionally, the kind of wood each manufacturer uses for the rim or case also has an impact on sound. New York Steinway uses rock maple for their rims, which is an incredibly dense wood that conducts sound beautifully. Hamburg Steinways use a slightly softer wood made of beech. That said, both pianos possess a sound quality that is uniquely “Steinway”, one that is instantly recognized by experienced pianists and technicians all over the world.

The obvious question at this point would be “Which one is better?” Like any fine piano, it really comes down to individual taste. We’ve maintained a handful of New York and Hamburg Steinways over the years that were all exceptional instruments, ones we’d rate in the top 5 percentile.

Post 1970 Hamburg Steinways are very rare to find in the US, and their market value is around 30% more than New York Steinways. If you haven’t had an opportunity to play a Hamburg Steinway, we currently have an extraordinary Hamburg B that would be an ideal candidate to compare to a New York B. You can learn more about this piano HERE."

Amen Ptah Ra wrote:

Following the release of Pianoteq v6.5.0 and now subsequently v6.5.2, probably American Steinways are completely unnecessary!

Last edited by Beto-Music (04-07-2019 19:06)

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

What a highly interesting read, thank you, Beto-music!

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Klemperer wrote:

What a highly interesting read, thank you, Beto-music!


Yes very good... talk about wood ..and carbon fiber ... all the time of course on acoustic guitar sites... and strings too... never thought about it in piano sound boards.

Pianoteq 8, most pianos, Studiologic 73 Piano, Casio Px-560M, PX-S 3000, PX-S 1100, PX-S 7000, Mac i27 and MacBook Pro M3, SS Logic SSL 2

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

I'm glad you liked these technical informations.

I wonder if it's possible to use it to create a pianoteq D4 variation that sounds and feels like a New York Steinway-D. We could call it New York New York (Sinatra's Song).

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Bösendorfer

And while not a piano, a nice blues harmonica would be nice.

If all things are possible, then it follows that it is possible for something to be impossible.

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Beto-Music wrote:

I'm glad you liked these technical informations.

I wonder if it's possible to use it to create a pianoteq D4 variation that sounds and feels like a New York Steinway-D. We could call it New York New York (Sinatra's Song).

Great idea.

Pianoteq Pro Studio with Bösendorfer, Shigeru Kawai and Organteq

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Hi everyone!
Of course I’m not original... but I would love to have a Fazioli f308 model in my Pianoteq and I do think that would also be a big plus for Pianoteq reputation and prestige.
Well, in Italian we call that a big Panegirico... but, honestly, I feel safe to say I’m not the only one who loves Fazioli piano.
Kind regards,
Marco

Last edited by Marcop (01-12-2019 10:50)

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

I want a FM piano.

Respeito, Esforço e Sabedoria

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

I wish to have in my Pianoteq library: Fazioli grand, any german upright and Yamaha DX piano.

Kawai VPC1 | Arturia Minilab Mk2
Pianoteq 7 Pro | Synthogy Ivory II | Arturia Analog Lab Lite | Korg Collection
Roland Quad Capture | Neumann KH120 | Grado SR225i, SR80e

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

RichieBill wrote:

I wish to have in my Pianoteq library: Fazioli grand, any german upright and Yamaha DX piano.


I agree...
It could be a Yamaha DX (FM Piano) or any other authentic, innovative piano, developed by Modart, developed especially for Pianoteq, and not a "mere" imitation of an acoustic piano. In the end, what good is a 4th generation piano that only serves to mimic those of previous generations?

Respeito, Esforço e Sabedoria

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

I personally have an intense dislike for DX7-like "electric piano" tones. They plagued numerous recording in the '80s and beyond. Good riddance!

Professor Leandro Duarte wrote:
RichieBill wrote:

I wish to have in my Pianoteq library: Fazioli grand, any german upright and Yamaha DX piano.


I agree...
It could be a Yamaha DX (FM Piano) or any other authentic, innovative piano, developed by Modart, developed especially for Pianoteq, and not a "mere" imitation of an acoustic piano. In the end, what good is a 4th generation piano that only serves to mimic those of previous generations?

PT 7.3 with Steinway B and D, U4 upright, YC5, Bechstein DG, Steingraeber, Ant. Petrov, Kremsegg Collection #2, Electric Pianos and Hohner Collection. http://antoinewcaron.com

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

A Fazioli!  Before last Christmas I had a feeling that soon is something coming, and we got Bechstein. Now, again before Christmas, my feeling goes to Fazioli. As always, if we wait long enough Modartt will surprise us …..and it’s always a surprise when they present us with something we didn’t expect…..a Fazioli :-)

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

I really would like to see a Fazioli or a Ravenscroft 275. This would be so great :-)

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

I would love to Modartt to add a new feature where you can actually build a piano.

It would be nice to be able to choose the hammers and have different types of strings and to be able to choose the wood you want to use.
I think this would be a really welcomed addition. Not only would it be great fun but also a great way to learn what actually goes into making pianos and the different variations and types of materials used.

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Indeed, would be great to see additional concert grands from Modartt, and Fazioli, the SK-EX, the Yamaha CFX or Bosendorfer Imperial would be welcome.

Pianoteqenthusiast wrote:

A Fazioli!  Before last Christmas I had a feeling that soon is something coming, and we got Bechstein. Now, again before Christmas, my feeling goes to Fazioli. As always, if we wait long enough Modartt will surprise us …..and it’s always a surprise when they present us with something we didn’t expect…..a Fazioli :-)

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Deyvidpetro wrote:

I would love to Modartt to add a new feature where you can actually build a piano.

It would be nice to be able to choose the hammers and have different types of strings and to be able to choose the wood you want to use.
I think this would be a really welcomed addition. Not only would it be great fun but also a great way to learn what actually goes into making pianos and the different variations and types of materials used.

Excellent idea!

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

I really like the idea of more custom build options/controls especially targeting PTQ Pro, but I don't know what boundary conditions the current software design creates.

For my list, I'd say concert instruments from Fazioli, Borgato, Baldwin (vintage), Stuart and Sons, Mason and Hamelin, Chickering (vintage), and Gaveau (vintage) would all be valuable additions (to the already excellent options and selection we have now).

EDIT: I forgot Bösendorfer...how could I forget those wonderful instruments!?

Last edited by tmyoung (28-12-2019 13:56)
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/2xHiPcCsm29R12HX4eXd4J
Pianoteq Studio & Organteq
Casio GP300 & Custom organ console

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Yeah true I think software maybe a bit limited to mimik a material like wood. But I do think that different strings variations and hammers wouldn't be too far of a stretch though.

Yes more concert grands would be nice. But please, please, more upright pianos!!!

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Deyvidpetro wrote:

But I do think that different strings variations and hammers wouldn't be too far of a stretch though.

I agree completely!

This reminds me of a tidbit I came across last year that, somewhere around the mid-century, Steinway changed the point in the instrument scaling on the Model D where strings went from steel to copper-wound.  (I already knew that the bass break and overstringing had been moved and adjusted multiple times on multiple models over the decades, but I didn't know about materials swap in the strings at that time.) Before that, copper strings were reserved for the lowest 8 monochords only, and anything down to the low "f" was steel, which created a very different tone, sound, and texture for those notes.  It makes me wonder how different late nineteenth century music might be when played on instruments that had such a different bass scaling compared to what our ears are used to now; further, would composers have made substantial changes to their works because of this seemlingly trivial difference or another subtlety like this?

It would be nice to be able to add that kind of "materials" flexibility in PTQ, particularly when emulating vintage and antique instruments, and I would love even greater control of voicing or action regulation and design.

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/2xHiPcCsm29R12HX4eXd4J
Pianoteq Studio & Organteq
Casio GP300 & Custom organ console

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Steel wound bass strings do have a unique sound, not as profound a difference as other elements, but definitely significant. Here is a restored Knabe concert grand, about 1890, with steel wound bass strings and Abel hammers:

https://youtu.be/_NgaCN9BxWQ?t=12

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

NathanShirley wrote:

Steel wound bass strings do have a unique sound, not as profound a difference as other elements, but definitely significant. Here is a restored Knabe concert grand, about 1890, with steel wound bass strings and Abel hammers:

https://youtu.be/_NgaCN9BxWQ?t=12

Nathan, how great!  Nice composition and performance - both versions.  Particularly like the left hand arpeggio from bass to treble .. you have super technic.  I sure would love to see and play that piano.  It is tops.

Kudos,

Lanny

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Thanks Lanny, and yes, it's a very nice piano. Knabe might be another one to eventually model if there's enough interest in American pianos (along with Chickering, Mason & Hamlin, and Baldwin). Personally I'd be interested in a Baldwin Acrosonic spinet model. By far the best spinets, and very unique pianos, nothing quite like them.

I too would like to see the possibility of swapping out strings/hammers on any given model. So perhaps strings wound with copper, nickel, silver, steel, or gold. Strings made of steel, iron, brass, bronze, or gut. Also, the ability to switch from cross-strung strings to straight-strung strings. As for hammers, different makes can be emulated pretty nicely by adjusting the piano, mezzo, and forte sliders, as most brands seem to differ most based on darkness/brightness and the range along the dynamic spectrum. However, if you could throw on hammers made of leather, rubber, metal, hard nylon, etc., that could be amazing.

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

NathanShirley wrote:

Thanks Lanny, and yes, it's a very nice piano. Knabe might be another one to eventually model if there's enough interest in American pianos (along with Chickering, Mason & Hamlin, and Baldwin). Personally I'd be interested in a Baldwin Acrosonic spinet model. By far the best spinets, and very unique pianos, nothing quite like them.

I too would like to see the possibility of swapping out strings/hammers on any given model. So perhaps strings wound with copper, nickel, silver, steel, or gold. Strings made of steel, iron, brass, bronze, or gut. Also, the ability to switch from cross-strung strings to straight-strung strings. As for hammers, different makes can be emulated pretty nicely by adjusting the piano, mezzo, and forte sliders, as most brands seem to differ most based on darkness/brightness and the range along the dynamic spectrum. However, if you could throw on hammers made of leather, rubber, metal, hard nylon, etc., that could be amazing.

Where is the piano you played, Nathan?

Lanny

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Aside from choosing strings and hammers. My big wish and hope is that the guys from Modartt smooth out the attacks and make the Fortissimo more musical. As I find Pianoteq is great at softer playing but as soon as you get into Fortissimo it starts sounding metallic and cold and loses a lot of its musicality, one thing I would say the Ravenscroft 275 and Keyscape C7 Custom does far better in my opinion.

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Deyvidpetro wrote:

Aside from choosing strings and hammers. My big wish and hope is that the guys from Modartt smooth out the attacks and make the Fortissimo more musical. As I find Pianoteq is great at softer playing but as soon as you get into Fortissimo it starts sounding metallic and cold and loses a lot of its musicality, one thing I would say the Ravenscroft 275 and Keyscape C7 Custom does far better in my opinion.

But doesn't a real piano sound metallic when played fff? Listen for example to Horowitz https://youtu.be/oSCr1xn_Goo?t=68 , pretty metallic, isn't it?

Note that in Pianoteq you have the possibility of producing a less metallic sound when playing fff, for example you can adjust the velocity curve with something like Velocity = [0, 80, 100, 127; 0, 80, 95, 104]. Or you can reduce the hammer hardness at forte level. Not to mention the equalizers.

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

The Knabe is in a private home in western NC. Acoustics okay, but worth the compromise since the instrument was so nice.

Perhaps Pianoteq should model that bass string buzz of Horowitz's piano (at the end)... just kidding!

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Maybe you are right, maybe it is worth slapping on a limited and just reducing the frequencies a few decibels. But I do feel that the Ravenscroft 275 andthe LA Custom C7 I can really dig in, maybe I am too heavy handed haha...

Last edited by Deyvidpetro (06-01-2020 21:54)

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Deyvidpetro wrote:

Maybe you are right, maybe it is worth slapping on a limited and just reducing the frequencies a few decibels. But I do feel that the Ravenscroft 275 andthe LA Custom C7 I can really dig in, maybe I am too heavy handed haha...

I would be interested by your thoughts after trying a velocity curve similar to the one above.

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

I will give it a try and get back you. Is this a custom curve by yourself? I use Pianoteq with a Roland A88.

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Deyvidpetro wrote:

I will give it a try and get back you. Is this a custom curve by yourself? I use Pianoteq with a Roland A88.

No, it was just a suggestion (avoiding the high velocities), you may want to adapt it to your keyboard.

If ever you have the Standard version, reducing the hammer hardness at forte level may be better.

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Hi, all, I got a comment on this subject on two renditions:

Amen Ptah Ra wrote:
I've two (2) renditions of Chopin Etude Opus 10 No. 4, one from Pianoteq, VSL the other:
VSL
https://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads....ert_RM.mp3
Pianoteq
https://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads....8XP%29.mp3

Deyvidpetro wrote:

Wish and hope that the guys from Modartt smooth out the attacks and make the Fortissimo more musical. As I find Pianoteq is great at softer playing but as soon as you get into Fortissimo it starts sounding metallic and cold and loses a lot of its musicality

Philippe Guillaume wrote:
But doesn't a real piano sound metallic when played fff? Listen for example to Horowitz https://youtu.be/oSCr1xn_Goo?t=68 , pretty metallic, isn't it?
Vladimir Horowitz -Etude No. 12 in D#m - Scriabinby medici.tv [YouTube]


The perception of too metalic sound could be rendered bij certain frequencies not pleasant to a persons individual hearing and can indeed be adjusted bij velocity and/or by hammer hardness.
When it starts sounding metallic and “cold": Couldn’t that be caused by lack of very high frequencies which can color a sound “warm”?

Does a real piano sound metallic when played fff? Obviously it can!

Must say I like all Grand Piano models. When speaking of the Steinway D as the later models like Petrof and the Bechstein DG have more detail in them:

For what I perceive is this: The Etude No 12 marvelous playing indeed but sounds quite metallic and not ideal in my ears. A real player can’t be stopped by sound however.
The rendition of Amen showcases the difference in metallic? "air" in my hearing.

On the other hand software sampled instruments like Yamaha Garitan and EZ Keys may be having a higher level of lets say metallic noise and therewith sound a bit more like the real in my ears.?
Which is logic as it is real sound sample. In my thoughts that air element could be on top of the produced sound in Pianoteq to  make ik even more realistic. I have been tweaking and adding more higher harmonics and a little more sympathetic resonance does a lot as also adjusting velocity.

Could it be that the noise produced on very high level F to FFF playing is a form of resonance from all the snares of the entire instrument on specially the very higher audible frequencies.
I don’t mean only sympathetic resonance. Or you could say the amount of resonance and specially
the "frequency range" should vary by the amount of energy put on the snares while playing ppp to FFF

Best whishes for you all.
Regards Dick

Last edited by Dick van Dyke (07-01-2020 16:57)

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

In addition on my post above, been thinking about my words. This stuff could be something like a brain principal or a fantasie. Its all got to do with this psycho acoustic phenomenon, anyway its food for thought.
Must say that with the last upgrades the whole Pianoteq engine is coming close to perfection and the given options to tweak ar endless and very precise. Yesterday if have done some A/B with Garitan and EZ and when set parameters set equal to each other its all coming very close together to the same kind of output.

(Off topic; A future which is very nice in Garitan is the possibility to regulate the stereo widht for close and ambient, in the studio section)

Want to finish with this wish; I am looking forward for any next piano model to come.

Best regards
Dick

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Interesting point about pyschoacoustics!  I've never haad someone comment that a real piano sounded fake, they will say a real piano sounds bad, but not fake.  While a virtual instrument (whenever you mention it was a virtual instrument), is discussed in terms of real or fake rather than good or bad.  Perhaps in 20-50 years, the perception that it's not "real" will go away.  I think the Steingraber transducer project is a great step in that direction!

A few other thoughts on some external factors that change how metallic sounds a piano sounds (and these are just thoughts).  Certainly, there could be many internal differences which exist between what PTQ emulates and how a physical instrument sounds, but I suspect that the reasons for differences in how metallic the sound becomes as volume increases that we're discussing are less related to the PTQ engine but more in the microphone placement and other factors.

1. Microphones and microphone placement
This is a huge consideration that is often overlooked with emulated instruments, sampled instruments, and physical instruments.  How near and far a microphone is, how many microphones, what array/configuration of microphones is used, how much delay compensation there is, what pickup pattern and design of microphone is used, and what fx a microphone is processed through (eq, delay, filtering) are tremendous factors in how a piano will sound in a recording.  I love the fact that PTQ offers 5 microphones (but I'd love 6-10 even more for HQ rendering), which emulates--with quite acceptable accuracy--how changing microphone positions can drastically change sound.  As microphones are closer to the hammers or the reflected sound from the lid, the more "harsh" or "metallic" the sound tends to be, and as microphones are placed further away, more room sound and "mellowness" are picked up rather than just the attack.  This is one of the great challenges of good recording is to place microphones around a piano in a way that improves the sound the performer wants, and the same challenge exists with a virtual instrument.  Sample libraries vary greatly in what microphones were used and in what configuration, and while many of the high-end libraries are sampled with excellent microphones in good positions and stereo patterns, it's nearly impossible to "move" the microphone in the mixing stage--just as it's nearly impossible to do after any recording.  Different configurations like Decca trees vs XY stereo pairs totally change both how the piano is "picked up" by the microphones and also how it will play back in the sound-stage later.  Decca trees (which are rarely used for solo recording but can be frequently used for piano and orchestra) are a traditional soundtrack choice for films, because directionality of the sound from a stereo pair gives an even "wall of sound" which is more dramatic, nebulous, or ethereal.  Pop recordings use condenser mics close to the strings, harp, and hammers to give the sound "immediacy" and fit the piano more easily into the larger mix.  Classical recordings usually use coincident or AB stereo pairs along with extra room mics, to give as much of a "you are seated in the hall" feeling to the recording as possible.  You can try some of these differences out in all versions of PTQ by comparing the different "Recording" and "Player" and "Intimate" in each instrument pack, tend to extensively vary mic placement between them.

2. Recording equipment
To keep this from being as long as #1, tape delay will naturally increase metallic and "warm" sounds in any recording.  Whenever recording anything with metal strings (guitar, violin, piano, etc.), magnetic tape--as it's redubbed or transferred in the 1960s through 1980s recording processes--will add a light, scratchy warmth to the recording, which is usually considered desirable for most genres.  This is caused by surface of the tape being complex--like photography film--and resulting in slight increases and decreases in the speed at which the sound material is physically recorded to the tape: since there is nothing to physically, globally synchronize the recording at a microscopic level, you get slight artifacts that are perceived as a "warmer" sound.  The Horowitz video was recorded with tape mechanisms of the time, which will change the sound--even if slightly.  Add to that, video compression and encoding (and transfer from whatever media it was originally on before upload), and the sound we hear (not even including our different speakers, headphones, DACs, etc.) will have been modified significantly from what it would have sounded like to Horowitz on the stage or the audience in the hall.

3. The player
The soloist, and by extension the physical keyboard that is mechanically or digitally transferring the player's motion into data or hammer strikes, makes the greatest difference of all in how something sounds--both at the piano and in the hall.  Horowitz was without doubt an incredible pianist, but his technique deserves special attention in this discussion.  The "flat finger" technique he is using, is a hallmark of the Old Russian School, where the pad of the finger is used to strike the key and the finger rotates using the metacarpophalangeal joints, allowing for a softer sound and easier legato effect, whereas most Western European schools (especially the German School) favored bending the flexers of interphalangeal joints nearly vertical which gives a faster and more biting attack to the sound.  (Though there are many other differences too.)  To build power into the sound--to project music into the concert hall--Old Russian School players like him lift their arms and wrists more and use the support of the shoulders and back muscles to bring the entire hand down as a harder/heavier unit, while still striking the key with the pad of the finger (which definitely can make a metallic sound but not as metallic as when the fingers bent).  By keeping the fingers flat, the sound is mellower, while still powerful and audible, but also uses less energy than what's required to maintain a similar keystrike with the fingers bent.  In theory, this is much like a percussionist choosing a hard mallet or a soft mallet, which changes the attack of the sound and therefore the timbre.  Horowitz' energy and ability to keep his fingers that straight is its own essay of his remarkably unique skill, when you compare him to other pianists of the same school (e.g. Browning, Cliburn, or Lhévinne).  It's also important to note that how you play in a hall is very different from how you play in a practice room.  When Jeffery Brown interview Van Cliburn, he asked why the lid of his piano was closed, and Cliburn responded that all he did when practicing was rehearse the fingering positions and when you played in a hall, the real work started.  Why?  Because the acoustics of a hall add sufficient resonance that anything that sounds good at home will turn to indiscernible mush for the audience.  A good concertizing pianist will play far too loudly with notes far too far apart to compensate for that.  This is another reason for the metallic sound in Horowitz: truth to tell, I think they just the mics too close to the piano for the live recording and I've suspected that for years with that particular concert (a terribly common mistake which isn't limited to pianos--Heifetz sounded completely different in the hall than on record because he sounded perfectly even in the hall but stood closer than is generally recommended to the microphone which changed the timbre of his recordings).  It's also possible that they still used ribbon mics, which were put too close to the piano (which I believe was an old RCA radio trick that worked for that medium but was surpassed by better tech with small condenser omnis being the modern go-to for pianos).  This is another easy one to demonstrate by taking old piano rolls and listening to them using different reverbs and PTQ presets, because you can immediately tell when it's a roll by Godowsky, Rachmaninoff, Horowitz, or Lhévinne--since most of those rolls will sound equally good in a large hall or in small studio setting, while the less experienced people creating rolls will sound best only in small environments, where pianolas were typical.

I would be very curious to find out how if the degree of metallic sound is resolved by mic placement PTQ for those who either want more or less.

- An excellent article on the challenges of mic placement for pianos: https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/piano-recording
- An excellent resource on orchestra mic placement (though some of their links are broken like their decca tree article): https://www.dpamicrophones.com/mic-univ...-orchestra
- John Browning on the Old Russian School and Horowitz' technique: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eru9FDvUfz4
- Jeffrey Brown's interview of Cliburn which has some discussions of philosophy/technique near the end: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4Z1e6HWV3Y

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/2xHiPcCsm29R12HX4eXd4J
Pianoteq Studio & Organteq
Casio GP300 & Custom organ console

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Thank you guys I will have a look and research some more on the design side of Pianoteq. I tend not to do much with the design side.of things as my results are never really great, think Modartt should do some tutorials which would be a great help.

I agree Pianoteq is very, very close.

I think what I was meaning was that at Fortissimo especially mid range and bass notes Pianoteq doesn't sound quite as musical and can sound harsh and a little flat compared to the likes of the Keyscape C7 and the Ravenscroft 275. At softer levels Pianoteq is untouchable and I constantly get lost in playing, in fact it has even improved my playing and that is what you want and need.

Last edited by Deyvidpetro (09-01-2020 16:53)

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

Beto-Music wrote:

https://davidandersenpianos.com/hamburg...fferences/

Let’s start with the glaring differences:

Thank you, Beto-Music.  I now see the light; was blind, but now I see!  At this start of a new year, let an American make a difference, kindly, among the choices available to end users.  It too is historic!

Incidentally, I often consider myself a fan of Sinatra, and Dean as well.  His recordings and Dean’s were in my own mother’s record collection when I was just a youngster growing (up).  So, I listened to them, intently.

Of course, my Watts junior high and high school band and orchestra teacher was an Italian, so also of an Italian heritage.  Many highly accomplished and popularly recognized musicians today were some of his young pupils.  (Scores of music today do come anyway with Italian notation!)

I suppose I’m saying in a nutshell, let no modern American contribution to musics and instrumentations (workmanship wrought from and brought by blood, sweat, and tears) become acknowledged and made relevant only as one’s mere afterthought or from just an over-site  —because of it lacking the often more favored appeal of the quaint anywhere. 

This is no time for a backlash of ignoble overseers (when one human expression, itself viewed as either art or music, is now inarguably universal).

Time to get a grand American modeled and made an add-on.  Markedly, let it begin to become distinguishable, worthwhile rightfully amongst the others.

So in conclusion, Beto-Music, I like to make an announcement; one (post) of my statements (above) I want to retract, willingly:

Following the release of Pianoteq v6.5.0 and now subsequently v6.5.2, probably American Steinways are completely unnecessary!

This is no reaction to a delete.  Although, some remarks of mine got deletions untimely anyway.

Last edited by Amen Ptah Ra (11-01-2020 13:47)
Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

How about modeling the 1816 Fritz fortepiano copy made by Yoris Potvlieghe. It is owned by Wim Winters of Belgium (see it on YouTube's "Authentic Sound" channel).

This is a fantastic new piano that was laser-measured from an 1816 original instrument and recreated by the famous organ/piano/clavichord builder Yoris Potvlieghe. It is straight-strung and has a beautiful tone.

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

- Bösendorfer Imperial
- Yamaha CFX
- a Fazioli

Re: Pianos you want Modartt to model?

There are three main areas that I would really love to see Modartt address:

1) Felting. The current suggestions for using the existing parameters get nowhere even close to the sound of a felted upright. If it takes a whole separate instrument pack I'd be fine with that, but ideally I'd like to be able to choose material/thickness for all models.

2) Una Corda pianos. I'm surprised it isn't already possible to select between 1 and 3 (or even more?) strings per key, but a separate model of the Klavins type instruments would also be cool.

3) The sympathetic resonance of the low strings. If you silently hold a handful of the lowest notes on even a modest grand piano, the sympathetic reverberation you get is another world from the existing effect in PTQ6.

Last edited by Ben Crosland (13-02-2020 18:17)