Feature request: More mic presets? A coincident stereo pair?

++ this - A few good mic pairs would be great in the menu. The Rode NT is also worth listing as a potential new mic IMO - good workhorse and for what, 3 decades now. Deserves some love.

I've saved many pairs and arrays over time in my user settings, good and bad, but it's another thing to have some good solid real-world setups on the menu to begin from.

I love the mic system in Pianoteq and have posted a few times here about ways you can use real world mic arrays in Pianoteq - but having presets for an MS or Blumlein pair in the menu would be just fantastic!

Not so say I think the system needs changing - just a few good pairs would be a fast starting point to work from for many users getting into the mics.

Also a quick NOTE, re some other posts you made Jake, I am currently having no luck playing back any of the audio examples you're posting. I'll try the FXPs asap.

Actually, I would like to be able to choose from the PTQ brand rendered mics already available ... then fix any two of them in a coincident relationship ... now you could just move that pair anywhere around in the sound field of the PTQ image.  This can already be done but it requires each of the two chosen mics to be reset.  But think of a preset coincident stereo pair such that the angle between the mics can be whatever one likes and the closeness be whatever one likes and they could also not be the same brand mic.  A standard coincident stereo mic typically cannot have the closeness changed between the elements ... furthermore, the two elements are the same.   

In PTQ, for example, hold the shift key and click on two mics and now they both would move and rotate as though they were one.  This would be 'coincident stereo mics "on steroids" a la Philippe'

(had too much wine)

Lanny

Here's a revised fxp using the same setup as the wide dynamics version, but with the mics swapped and the volumes adjusted so that the bass is more on the left and thr treble is more on the right of the player:

https://www.forum-pianoteq.com/file/bozf1fv6

It is recommended that the user make adjustments to dynamics, volume, and other features in the quest for greater realism and pleasure.

I'm thinking that Philippe may be watching these posts and his "wheels are turning".  (wink wink)

Lanny

Inspired by Jake's X-Y settings, I've just attempted an alternative Player setting for Steinway B using that X-Y array (uploaded to fxp corner). I like it, but I'm not expert enough to do the fine adjustments. Can it be improved?
A big thank you to Jake for that link to the Doug McKenzie site. Superb!

Aha, yes, this is the sort of problem that I tend to run into when I'm trying to do mic placements. I can go so far, then the finer points elude me. Admittedly, I didn't spend much time on this one, it was a rough test of the X-Y array. But if the stereo image can be fixed, I think it's got great potential.

Note to Modartt team: it would make mouse refinements of mic positions easier if -
1) there was a more efficient way to zoom the mic window
2) there was a switchable grid reference (as you get in graphic design software).

The only panning issue I found was in the Model B wide preset (not played it recently to hear if this still exists). Headphones are always the best way to test, occasionally even some very good performances using real pianos (and mics) the balance or panning seems off, at least to me. I don't really have any suggestions other than use headphones to check. Just a thought, when making adjustment to mics etc it's best to do this while a midi file is playing, something like arpeggios that isn't too distracting, adjusting the mics whilst playing is not good, although I have been known to do this.

That is a good trick, thanks

Wondering whether to add an extra mic (or two) to my fxp, I had a play with what I call the 'secret' mics. These are the ones that lurk in the background of all presets with fewer than 5 mics, just sitting there waiting to be activated. Some of them are in interesting positions, and it's instructive to switch them on and off to hear their effect.
Thanks, Gilles, for the tip about left-click mic movement! And yes, copy and paste are extremely useful - I have used the function to grab one or two mic positions from other presets. It's a slightly fiddly process (copy mic 1 from A, switch to B, paste mic 1, switch to A, copy mic 2...) but worth it.

Some refer to figure eight (8) microphones as stereo.

Some sort of balance control parameter options for Pianoteq figure eight (8) microphones could make each of them behave as though they were true stereo, if the control was implemented.  Controls might allow you to stress one end of the microphone over its opposite‘s gain.

I have software which mimics such behavior in paired mics right now!

If you want to mike a room, as Qexl’s video demonstrates, but for virtual instruments, you may like to demo the software I use: VirtualSoundStage 2.0.  It includes stereo microphone setups (below) that you position freely in various virtual environments:

Mixed Stereophony

EBS
Stereophony:Mixed
Width:0.25m
Angle:90 deg
Capsules:2 x Cardioid

NOS
Stereophony:Mixed
Width:0.3m
Angle:90 deg
Capsules:2 x Cardioid

ORTF
Stereophony:Mixed
Width:0.17m
Angle:110 deg
Capsules:2 x Cardioid

GHS
Stereophony:Mixed
Width:0.6m
Angle:90 deg
Capsules:2 x Subcardioid

Runtime Stereophony

AB30
Stereophony:Runtime
Width:0.3m
Angle:0 deg
Capsules:2 x Omnidirectional

AB60
Stereophony:Runtime
Width:0.6m
Angle:0 deg
Capsules:2 x Omnidirectional

AB90
Stereophony:Runtime
Width:0.9m
Angle:0 deg
Capsules:2 x Omnidirectional

AB120
Stereophony:Runtime
Width:1.2m
Angle:0 deg
Capsules:2 x Omnidirectional

AB200
Stereophony:Runtime
Width:2.0m
Angle:0 deg
Capsules:2 x Omnidirectional

Intensity Stereophony

XY60
Stereophony:Intensity
Width:0.0m
Angle:60 deg
Capsules:2 x Cardioid

XY90
Stereophony:Intensity
Width:0.0m
Angle:90 deg
Capsules:2 x Cardioid

XY120
Stereophony:Intensity
Width:0.0m
Angle:120 deg
Capsules:2 x Cardioid

Blumlein
Stereophony:Intensity
Width:0.0m
Angle:90 deg
Capsules:2 x Figure-Eight

Other

Decca Tree
Width:2.0m
Depth:1.2m
Capsules:3 x Omnidirectional

Each setup (above) is useful in conjunction with the Pianoteq modeled SF-12 and SF-24, if you choose to use either in VirtualSoundStage 2.0.

You know you're always free to make your own mic mini presets out of the mic setups (above) whether or not MODARTT decides to make a larger variety of mic presets available.  Although, you'll have no way to save any mic descriptions to those setups, since a note pane intended specifically for mini presets such as microphone presets is as yet unsupported.

ARP that software looks interesting, thanks. Looks like the mics are a pretty sweet component.

Excellent dazric,

The stereo effect of these kinds of arrays is probably best enjoyed on speakers.  For headphones something like NX Virtual Mix Room by Waves adds real world cross-talk between L&R (and whatever other psycho-acoustic things they do with micro delays etc.) which helps the effect seem more real, more like you're not in headphones but in the room.

If you do like moar stereo which translates to earphones possibly more blatantly too (as I do too depending) try mixing some wide mics along with it (mic on left with mostly the left chan and right mostly right chan), like low in the mix (back or close but wide as you like and bring in to taste).  That way, if main volume levels remain with the Blumlein pair, with a lower mixed mid-bassy mic (equal L&R to start) for body, plus 2 low mixed wide, you can get some appreciative depth - but can be an adventure.  Swap mic types to put the shine on the tones you like to hear tailored for the piece or type of playing.

For recording, often mics are going to be for collecting absolutely the most detail and closest tonal range you want - then later things like all other mixing tools (DAW, EQ compression, desk emulation and so on) can really finalise 'the overall' sound, including stereo width.

But when the mics are good, positioned well in Pianoteq it's got so much going for it - I'm always stunned when taking time to re-jig or re-attempt something I tried a few years ago.  Just an SF-24 sounds better than some multi-mic things I used to do to get a hot bright sound without a DAW involved.

You might also like to turn off level & delay compensation? (can mean a sort of more maybe organic effect in headphones, but lower volume happens, but remember the "gain" control in effects, or adjust mics volumes of course individually too), maybe leave the figure 8 with no L&R delay (but also good with some, I like over 8ms, just taste but ~5 works well too - maybe try more see how it gels with the other mics), give the bass one something like 9secs left and 35sec right delay and the wide mics adjust to effect with diff values if close or far.. see what happens - I like this kind of setup - there's no correct thing to do but play with balances and position/angles, check balance by playing chords everywhere.

BTW though, if you have a piece which you want to close mic for, check the key range, aim mics appropriately - you may or may not need or want a mic down in the bass end if you're just wanting mid to trebles.

It's such a luxury having 5 virtual mics to click around - but that many can get quite thick. I really have a few 5 mic setups (all different angles overhead - but it needs adjusting for every piano - most arrays are going to be needing some movement between presets - less so for simple ones).

Maybe it's a nice project, to simplify all that too.

1+ for mic preamps. It would be great to have some old Neves and API's to call up. And to have more mics. I hadn't thought about them as being add-on packs, but that could work.

And of course I'm still hoping to see more mic setups, as we've been discussing. Maybe a dropdown list with all of the major setups and the mics already linked for moving? We can right-click to call mic presets now, but I'm not sure many people find that, or would find that.  I'm not sure how, but it would be nice to have a note pane for the mics page, too, where the developers could include notes about each mic array--its advantages and disadvantages, suggestions about how to vary it, etc.

A way to change measurements from meters to feet would admittedly be good, too. It may seem lazy to people outside the US, but when you grow up measuring and thinking in inches and feet, you naturally see things and think in terms of inches and feet. It's not just Hollywood and LA. Nashville and New York, the other big U.S. music cities with many, many studios and musicians can think in terms of meters, but can work more quickly if given measurements in inches and feet.

A better way to position mics more accurately would be good too, but I would imagine that creating a 3D image of the piano cabinet would be hard and take up resources.

Yes, I would also welcome a wider range of professionally-produced presets to demonstrate the effects of various configurations and different mics. I wonder if Modartt could persuade some music producers to contribute presets, as Waves have done with their Abbey Road plugins? And if extra mics and pre-amps were to be an add-on or Pro-only feature, I think that would be acceptable to the majority of users.

I've always felt a bit queasy each time I looked at and used Pianoteq figure eight (8) microphones.  They just appeared gimmicky!  By my being an amateur mixer er amateurish audio engineer, I've had no idea the mics were supposed to have two (2) outputs each.  Although, they sound a bit much; that's maybe that which was oftentimes unneeded. 

Now my question is: "Who knew, on an actual physical figure eight (8) mic you have to adjust gain levels for both ends of it, separately?"

No amount of end user zealotry is going to gloss over or cover up what a Pianoteq figure eight (8) mic mechanically obviously lacks  —true stereo adjustment!

Until MODARTT adequately addresses this issue, end users like you, dazric, and I are going to have to use some workarounds, like two (2) mics positioned opposite each other horizontally forming a makeshift stereo figure eight (8) input, as Qexl suggested, for us to creatively reinvent a figure eight (8) source that actually has stereo gain levels independently controllable.

You know, dazric, if when within a Top view or Front view, you control click on a mic, you got (on the yellow pane, in addition to coordinates) a mic balance cell you fill with zero, or negative, or positive amounts, you could choose the stereophony you would like on a figure eight (8) microphone for both its ends simultaneously.  An option click by itself on a mic might even reveal another slide selector for a much quicker selection.

Maybe all that is needed is a group of alternative images with enough detail to allow you to see your distance from hammers, dampeners, sides, strings, Etc., and a measurement means like the line between linked mics.  You already get a fullscreen mode without a loss in detail. 

No photorealistic image is absolutely necessary when a wire mesh will do.  Besides, dazric's idea of an assistant or even a separate application for professional users just to hone in on accurately measured mic placements when needed is genuinely worth some consideration.

I like to make the summation, some just want to see a graphical interface that is, well, one much more clearly graphic  —and without your having to grapple with its visually obscured artwork just to get it to work.

Have you got an idea there!  Perhaps they'll want to be sure to include all the existing preset mic variations that already accompany Pianoteq instrument presets, before any signature mic presets are even offered (just for thorough end users to make informed decisions in microphone placement).  I, for one, nay, all for one, and one for all, have much to learn!

People, though I feel we've had a little board meeting of our own, probably we'll just have to now wait and see whether or not members of MODARTT are willing to get on board with some of the ideas of us end users  —musicians!

Well guys, Jake and dazric, with regards to your XY90 (fxp) microphone setups, you each just got a 5 rating from me.  Although, my XY90 (fxp) setup gets no vote at all from people! 

Admittedly, it sounds somewhat like a toy piano in the comparison to the both of yours.  Perhaps it is that mine just stands out in its own league, far from a fellow struggling artist's endeavor  —but just as misunderstood.

Seriously, I am in awe by your attention to details to make the presets and what they ultimately might mean to others who downloaded your creations.  Certainly to me they impart a sense of intimacy for a discerning music listener such as myself to appreciate, quietly.

Man, Jake, I really have to sit myself down somewhere and intently listen to hear over and over the subtlety of nuances you captured from Mr. Doug McKenzie’s adagio performance, that of the song My Funny Valentine.  It to me is sublime. 

When I attended a Utah college  —let me say, before I dropped out— one of the college professors (who allegedly taught music appreciation) remarked er stipulated; music commonly called classical had been misnomered, but, actually is serious music.  Well, while he was referring to his abstraction to the majority of the students who wanted to receive high grades from him, I left his class and did some referring of my own within my soon smoke filled dorm room, if you get my meaning.  Understandably, I was an adolescent who failed to recognize inanimate objects as suddenly baring human characteristics and attitudes endowed in them or becoming newly fashioned high fangled false-god like in appearances  —from chiefly the traditions that now have long been established inside the state run western university institutions.  Remarkably, I fail to accept, personally, any animism from accusatory and universally hypocritical teachers indeed who verbally teach or instruct outside of sub Saharan locations, but, only to belittle the lives of fellow inhabitants from their apparent selfsame animistic beliefs.

I know I just got off on a tangent!

My point is; one is a serious human being musician indeed if he or she (whether a newbie to Pianoteq or not) gives an audience to your preset rendition, and appreciably and deservingly so.

Now I like to say at the end of this post, with the Age of Aquarius approaching (and with both new users and old timers alike needing to soak up as much information as possible about Pianoteq presets, in the imagined words from Maynard G. Krebs a jazz piano playin' sidekick inside Max Shulman's Dobie Gillis, if you will, "School us, Big Daddy."