Topic: The Werckmeister III preset Vs The scala file “werck3.scl”

First I would like to thank DavidJones for this post of the thread Well vs. Equal Temperament.


Here is a question for _DJ_ and all others with a good knowledge of Historical Temperaments.

I have compared two CLEARLY different temperaments,

I have the 4.5.5 version of Pianoteq and I tried the werckmeister III that comes available as a tuning preset, and I also loaded the file “werck3.scl” and clearly shows a general shift in pitch when playing the piece: F.Couperin "Les baricades misterieuses" Midi file of the piece available here:

http://www.kunstderfuge.com/couperin.htm

http://www.kunstderfuge.com/-/midi.asp?...rchive.mid

couperin_6_5_les_baricades.


What is really strange is that I understand both to be the same Werckmeister III temperament with a=415.

On Pianoteq within Grimaldi A, I have selected the a=415 and compared it to a=440 to ensure that the a=415 is indeed selected and Pianoteq is playin in a=415, and then played the same piece with the scala file “werck3.scl” but they clearly produce obviously different results, with a clear general shift in pitch, not just slight modifications of some intervals. What is REALLY incredible is that these two Werckmeister III, (the built-in tuning preset) and the “werck3.scl scala file correspond, to my ears, very closely (although not exactly as I have explaned in more detail in this other thread: Tempest great tool for estimating the temperament from recording to these two temperaments available on youtube:

The the built-in tuning preset matches very closely the tuning on

Claudio di Veroli (Tuning: ordinaire (Rousseau) temperament)


Claudio di Veroli (Tuning: ordinaire (Rousseau) temperament)




and the scala file “werck3.scl” copied below:

! werck3.scl
!
Andreas Werckmeister's temperament III (the most famous one, 1681)
 12
!
 256/243
 192.18000
 32/27
 390.22500
 4/3
 1024/729
 696.09000
 128/81
 888.26999
 16/9
 1092.18000
 2/1

which can be downloaded here

http://www.huygens-fokker.org/docs/scales.zip

werck3.scl “Andreas Werckmeister's temperament III (the most famous one, 1681)”

The latter one: werck3.scl file (copied above) matches very closely the temperament featured on this YouTube video. As you will notice when compared with the original Claudio di Veroli (Tuning: ordinaire (Rousseau) temperament) (see youtube link above) the pitches are higher:

Elena Zhukova Video here:

Elena Zhukova

Last edited by JohnSchenker (18-02-2016 12:48)

Re: The Werckmeister III preset Vs The scala file “werck3.scl”

You have the same youtube video linked 3 times. You had me listening in frustrated confusion thinking I can't hear any difference at all. Well dah, I'm listening to the same track!!

3/2 = 5

Re: The Werckmeister III preset Vs The scala file “werck3.scl”

There can be subtleties. WKM-III is not a mathematically uniquely defined system of tuning. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werckmeister_temperament :

"Werckmeister was not explicit about whether the syntonic comma or Pythagorean comma was meant: the difference between them, the so-called schisma, is almost inaudible and he stated that it could be divided up among the fifths."

While it may be true that the difference comparing fifths (built on the same root note) is virtually indistinguishable, the cumulative effect of stacking fifths and playing in keys several fifths away from the central key around which the tuning is based will shift the overall pitch of that key enough to be clearly audible.

I am no expert in tunings so take my remarks with a grain of salt - as a possible explanation. It's just a thought based on the maths behind the different tunings.

(Also see my comment about video formats in your other thread.)

Last edited by SteveLy (17-02-2016 19:44)
3/2 = 5