Another "can you identify" posts, but this time it should be easier (or will it?), as there are three snippets of the first movement of Beethoven's Pathetique Sonata. All three snippets are in one file (it's a wave file not an mp3).
Played by concert pianists, so the interpretations are different.
One of the three snippets is from a recording on a concert grand.
The letters "R", "H" and "Sm" won't provide any clues. I guess you might call them pseudonyms.
I'm going to stick my neck out here and be the first one to reply to this.
The first and third pianos both sound pretty authentic to me, but if I have to choose one, I'll say that the first piano is the real grand. Maybe it's the sense of space or a slightly imperfect tuning of unisons, or something else that's intangible, but it feels/sounds more real to me.
The second snippet sounds bright, tinny and somewhat artificial to me.
I'm going to stick my neck out here and be the first one to reply to this.
The first and third pianos both sound pretty authentic to me, but if I have to choose one, I'll say that the first piano is the real grand. Maybe it's the sense of space or a slightly imperfect tuning of unisons, or something else that's intangible, but it feels/sounds more real to me.
The second snippet sounds bright, tinny and somewhat artificial to me.
Michael:
I commend you on having the courage to voice an opinion.
The file has been DL'd seven times, and the thread looked at going on twenty times.
I will say this, you've eliminated the second snippet - correct, but I won't divulge anymore until someone else takes a crack at it.
The purpose of this exercise of course is to demonstrate how really good Pianoteq can be.
Glenn
__________________________ Procrastination Week has been postponed. Again.
my suspicious mind is telling me this is probably a trick and all 3 are PTQ with different reverb and hammer settings, but if not, then out of the three #1 sounded best, although I personally prefer a more springy type of sound with metallic richness.
I agree with michael on #2, but it could be just the lack of reverb compared to the first,hard to tell but as it is I would say that is the worst.
#3 was the most muffled so I would guess that one is PTQ
According to what I can ascertain, he mostly plays Bosendorfers. To me the sound doesn't seem to be a Steinway, but I may well be wrong - if anyone thinks it sounds like a Steinway, I'll listen.
The second snippet is Pianoteq K1, with the mics placed above and below the piano. Mic one: 0.660, 0.860, 0.300 Mic two: 0.840, 0.880, 1.440.
All other parameters are stock, except I increased the reverb a bit.
The third snippet is interesting because when I compared the Schiff recording and the second recording, I though that they were strikingly similar - except that the high notes seemed to ring too much in PT.
So for the third snippet, I reduced the Impedance as follows: At C1, 0.00, At C4, 0.74, from C5 and higher, 0.48.
I never really played around to get optimum values, so these Imp values could probably be improved.
I also softened the hammers for the third snippet (0.20, 0.54, and 1.00). This is very soft.
Interestingly the friend I often refer to on this forum (he rebuilds pianos and presently has seven grand in his place from a 4'-11" Yamaha to a C7 Yamaha), chose the third snippet as the real piano. He's played just about everything there is including concert Steinways, Baldwins, Kawais, and Bosendorfers.
This wasn't a test to see how smart or knowledgeable anyone was, but to show how really good Pianoteq can be.
What are everybody's thoughts and opinions?
I think we are in good hands.
Glenn
EDIT - Graham, I'd guess that the very soft hammers had something to do with the muffled sound.
Last edited by Glenn NK (28-03-2010 04:31)
__________________________ Procrastination Week has been postponed. Again.
The background hiss in #1 is a bit of a giveaway, so perhaps for future tests some background hiss could be added to the Pianoteq recordings. (in fact, I wondered whether this may have been a trick, and I had to force myself to block out the hiss when making the judgement)
It is easy for me to believe that many might pick #3, because of the very nice reverb.
Yes. The background hiss is the giveaway. Next time maybe do a longer piece recording with mics on the grand and with some nice studio monitors and a subwoofer with pianoteq.
Otherwise I could not tell if 1 or 3 was acoustic. But if you put a piece with a lot of lower notes in there I think I would be able to tell because of release noise and string ring on the acoustic base notes.
Anyway, each update gets closer to perfection. The K1 grand is a great instrument in its own right. Pianoteq treble is great. The bass is getting closer. Get a Hamburg Steinway in your studio and nail that bass sound down, release modeling and all!
Well I came late, but for me it's clear that the first recording was the most natural if listened carefully, without exterior sound noises.
But I need to say that the comparison clear shows that pianoteq it's in constant evolution, improving and improving after each version. In earlier pianoteq versions would be much easier to say what is the real grand piano.
I wish I'd listened before I saw the answers! I think I'd have got it right though.
To me the second does sound too thin and metallic and in the third the reverb doesn't sound convincing so I think I'd have gone for number one. The third piano tone is excellent though and played with a good convolution reverb I think you'd be hard pressed to tell it wasn't a real piano.
Glenn could you post your fxp? In the standard version we can't make the impedance changes you made - ta!
I've just been playing with your K1 mod, I left the impedance setting at default (1.0) and turned off limiter and reverb and it sounds great! Thanks for posting. The limiter and built in reverb always add a certain artificial quality to me, maybe it's my equipment - I don't have the best phones in the world!
If I try it in Garageband with a better reverb I think it could sound superb!
I've listened a few times. They all sounded good to me. The 1st and 3rd sound like you could hear the atmosphere of the room, especially in number 3, while the 2nd sounded much cleaner and more detailed, as if its recorded straight from the strings. Maybe you could try adding the room effect in the 'Reverberation Drop-down' menu and slow down the 'Sound Speed.' Maybe a couple more mics to beef up the sound. Otherwise there's not much in it.
I've noticed this same thing when listening different recordings of real grand pianos playing the same piece. It's almost like something has been added or lost during the recording session.
I agree with BazC that with a good convolution reverb the third piano may very well have been just as convincing as the first, it's very close already.
Nice to compare :-) I don't believe, that all three snippets are recorder by concert pianists. In the last two there is a mistake in the rest. C minor chord before the scale is released too early, Beethoven wrote one eight there. Also the scale is not steady. Anyway the third snippet is very close to the acoustic grand, I like this sound very much.
Some replies to everyone's interesting and usefule comments:
1) The Pathetique fxp is available in Files.
2) I never use the limiter - even to my poor ears, it seems to have a major effect (which I don't like).
3) The sound I like is the "direct" sound a pianist hears, not the "recording" sound normally heard by others. I seem to get this sound with the two microphones (above and below the piano). Because of this, the reverb won't sound "normal" to many listeners. I find, if I play a grand in a very live and large room (empty church), the reverb is annoying.
4) One statement last night was in error; I first raised the general Impedance to 1.0, then lowered the Impedance in the upper register to eliminate the ringing.
She's not likely at the same level of Andras Schiff, but looking at the Event List of the MIDI file, it appears to have been recorded live, and not sequenced.
6) Number 2 and number 3 were recorded with the K1; I didn't use the C3 or the M3 at all.
Glenn
EDIT: The fxp posted was used for number 3 snippet.
EDIT 2: I could have used the latest K1 as the starting point, which would have likely resulted in the same sound, but I so much liked the RC2 that it's hard to change. But to quote Red Green, "I can change if I have to".
Last edited by Glenn NK (28-03-2010 17:10)
__________________________ Procrastination Week has been postponed. Again.
I hope it's not to late to comment - only just seen this.
No. 1 for me was by far the best (i won't claim I would have said that was the acoustic though). No. 3 for me had far too much reverb which I always tame. Having said that, I was playing my acoustic today - pedalled high notes - and I noted of course that is what a real piano does. Somehow though given the option I prefer without.
So by elimination I guess no. 2 was best for me. Isn't this the whole issue though: we are all hearing something different, especially me as I am nearer 60 than 50!!!
