Topic by PTQfan

  • Avatar
  • PTQfan
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 13-10-2024
  • Posts: 2

Topic: Organteq and phase correlation

A question to Modartt team: there’s an “issue” in Organteq: in many presets “out of the box” many stops (e.g UM8, NQ2 2/3, etc) or at least some notes of them (e.g E3) are out of phase (some of them are even in antiphase) which is noticed both by ear and by correlometer. It seems like the phase can be adjusted by experimenting with Stereo Width and C/C# Separation parameters and this can be really tricky (maybe because I’m doing it without any particular system/rule/formula, just by ear and checking myself with correlometer). For example in “Baroque Cathedral I” phase of E3 of Z2 (pedal) and a combination of NQ2 2/3 plus WF2 (Schwellwerk) can be adjusted by setting C/C# Separation to 1.0 and Stereo Width to 0.68, still E3 of UM8 (Ruckpositiv) remains out of phase, so making all of those three E3 in phase requires Stereo Width set to 0.52 and C/C# Separation set to 0.43 (and I’m sure there are lots of other Width/Separation combinations for doing this). I’m 1000% sure this “issue” is not a bug or error but somehow connected to organ’s physics/pipes location (that’s why I’ve put an “issue” in quotation marks), i.e it’s a simulation of organ in real world which is absolutely great, still quite tricky to solve. So my question is: what’s the RIGHT and PROPER way to make everything in phase and at the same time to get nice stereo organ? Am I right at all trying to solve it by experimenting with Stereo Width and C/C# parameters? And if yes, is there any particular rule/formula/”easy way” to get it without spending too much time on checking every stop/note after every change in Width/Separation values? And last but not least – can this be solve for 100% at all? Or there will be still some limitations like “try to avoid combination of stop/note X and stop/note Y because the only way to get everything in phase is to set both Width/Separation to 0”?

Last edited by PTQfan (30-08-2026 08:37)

Reply by Klangpost

  • Avatar
  • Klangpost
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 01-04-2025
  • Posts: 27

Re: Organteq and phase correlation

When you say that a particular note or stop is “out of phase”, what exactly do you mean by that?

Do you mean that the left and right channels show a low or negative correlation in the correlometer, and that you therefore consider this undesirable? Or do you mean that two different pipes/stops playing together are cancelling each other acoustically because you believe their waveforms should ideally be phase-aligned?

I’m asking because, in a real pipe organ, two pipes or two stops are not necessarily expected to be “in phase” with each other. Their physical positions, propagation times, spectra and radiation patterns naturally produce frequency-dependent phase differences. In particular, an 8′ stop and a 2 2/3′ stop playing the same key are not simply two copies of the same waveform that should be phase-aligned.

So I’m curious: what is your reference for deciding that the phase relationship is “correct” or “incorrect”? Is your goal to reproduce the physical/acoustic behaviour of a real organ, or is your goal to maximize stereo correlation/mono compatibility?

Klangpost's Website

Reply by PTQfan

  • Avatar
  • PTQfan
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 13-10-2024
  • Posts: 2

Re: Organteq and phase correlation

Yes, channels show negative correlation (which I guess is natural for organ) and the goal is to maximize stereo correlation/mono compatibility. I’m not looking for a sound of "cinematic organ", nor am I trying to achieve the widest possible stereo image. I’m aiming for a balance between the natural stereo sound of a pipe organ and excellent mono compatibility.

So my question is: how can I achieve this in an acoustically correct way directly in Organteq, rather than mangling the organ by cutting frequencies, collapsing parts of it to mono (except for very low end of course), etc.?

It seems that one possible approach is to adjust the relationship between Stereo Width and C/C♯ Separation, since there is a interaction between these two parameters and this does help to some point. The problem is that I don’t know how to approach this systematically and acoustically correctly. There may also be other factors involved besides these two parameters, such as the parameters of the individual pipes themselves.

What I need are some basic rules or algorithms, even at a conceptual level—for example, "the higher you set parameter X, the lower parameter Y should be" or "the higher is parameter X for one stop/pipe, the lower it should be for another stop/pipe".

Reply by TimB3

  • Avatar
  • TimB3
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Switzerland
  • Registered: 22-10-2024
  • Posts: 8

Re: Organteq and phase correlation

Google AI says:

Phase cancellation when using Modartt Organteq 2 over high-precision studio monitors such as the Genelec 8030 frequently occur, because the interaction of the virtual organ pipes re-mimicates physical reality extremely precisely. Since the Genelec 8030 delivers an analytical, phase-linear sound image, you hear these extinctions unadorned.Why does this happen with Organteq 2?Unlike sample-based organs, Organteq uses Physical Modeling. If several registers (e.g. an 8′-principal and a 2 2/3′-quinte) or separate C/C# charges produce the same tone or overtones at the same time, their sound waves interact in the virtual space.Desired physics: In a real church, pipes stand side by side. The duration differences naturally lead to frequency-dependent phase shifts. This ensures the lively, spatial sound.The problem with the monitor: If the stereo width is set extremely far or the room is not acoustically optimized, frequencies (especially in the bass and the lower mids) at the listening station can cancel each other out. The sound then suddenly appears thin, hollow or "wanders" unpleasantly in the stereo field.

I experienced the same problems with my Genelec speakers. The sound of the presets was very muddy.

I am running now the 8 track template provided in this forum in my DAW to individually gain more control over the sound in each track. You already have named the key components:
C/C# separation not too much, same for stereo field. Maximum 2.8 sec reverb, room size 28..mix of reverb around 0 to +3.

However I would think that this doesn’t help you much.

I think it’s more about room size, monitor quality and proper setup and sitting (listening) position. Just subtle changes in my listening position gives me big differences.

My room is 12 sqm and after lots of experimenting I finally found the best settings for my situation. I don’t have a subwoofer but it’s definitely okay for now. If I could afford one I would buy one.

With some adjustments I could make organteq sound fantastic in my specific acoustic environment. My teacher, a professional organist verified that.

The greatest fun still is the real thing. Saying that I noticed that it’s important for me to play at home almost in the same loudness as in the church. I remember my first playing on a real organ. I was totally impressed by the volume.

Unfortunately the manual for organteq doesn’t properly state what the values in the settings represent. So I can only guess what that means.

I only started organ playing 1 1/2 years ago. It’s Bach BWV639 I am studying now and my wrong setup and settings made the phase cancellation clearly audible.

The piece did help me to correct the issue by listening and adjusting the settings mentioned above

Last edited by TimB3 (03-09-2026 08:36)

Reply by PTQfan

  • Avatar
  • PTQfan
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 13-10-2024
  • Posts: 2

Re: Organteq and phase correlation

It would be absolutely wonderful if Modartt could create a "magic" phase slider, which would allow the user to adjust the stereo/phase relationship to their own taste simply by moving it.

It would also be great if moving this slider automatically adjusted the Width and C/C# sliders accordingly, so that the user could visually see exactly what was happening. The "magic slider" itself could be placed right alongside the existing Width and C/C# controls. And, of course, such a slider should take the stops currently used in the organ preset into account (and maybe some other relevant parameters). That would probably be the best solution. Who knows, maybe Modartt are already working on something like this.

By the way, I’m sure that Organteq has not been abandoned, even though it has been a very long time since the last update. Apparently, the Organteq team is simply busy working on Airteq, and I think that once it is released, we can expect some Organteq updates as well.

Of course, I can’t presume to give advice to the professionals at Modartt, but it seems to me that, at this point, Organteq needs two major updates above all: first, full Scala support, and second, this "magic slider" — essentially, a kind of mixing assistant for the natural, not "cinematic" organ sound.

Of course, the most obvious direction would be to expand the German and French organs with Spanish, English, and American organs. But in my opinion, Modartt should focus precisely on the area where Hauptwerk cannot compete with Organteq by default. If the development path is primarily focused on adding Spanish, English, and American traditions (which of course is also great, but not "a must"), I don’t think it would attract that many new users. Hauptwerk already has more than 150 organs, so there is little point in trying to compete with them on that ground. The physical modeling of an organ should beat a sample-based organ — and attract new users — precisely in the area where a sampler simply cannot offer anything.

Last edited by PTQfan (Yesterday 19:29)