Topic: Who defines the preset sound at MIDI velocity 64? ...

... a person or an algorithm?

A piano preset sound at MIDI velocity 64 is in the "middle" of a scale of 128 possible values. Who decides, which sound of a recorded piano represents this velocity 64 in an instrument preset?

Is it a person, who says: This recorded sound represents the medium character of that instrument the best to my ears, let's define it as vel 64!

Or is it an algorithm, that divides the "loudness" range in 128 steps from the quietest to the loudest playable sound of a note?

If there is no systematic in this process, it probably makes sense to customize the velocity curve for each instrument preset. Maybe even after a revoicing update.

Re: Who defines the preset sound at MIDI velocity 64? ...

Velocity is guided by mechanics rather than tone. In Pianoteq, this would be the momentum with which the hammer hits the simulated strings. In sampled VIs, this would be the strength with which a key is hit (VSL use a "robot finger" to make it repeatable).

So, if different instruments sound different at the same velocity, that would be a fair reflection of the playing experience on different instruments: variable outcomes for the same input.

The editorial choice that a human would make would be to define the maximum force for vel=127 (as well as the minimal for vel=0, as I imagine we wouldn't start from nothing). I would speculate in pianoteq this choice is consistent within instrument groups (ie. obviously a different choice between the steinway and a steel drum).

So vel=64 falls out of the wash.

Re: Who defines the preset sound at MIDI velocity 64? ...

daniel_r328 wrote:

Velocity is guided by mechanics rather than tone. In Pianoteq, this would be the momentum with which the hammer hits the simulated strings. In sampled VIs, this would be the strength with which a key is hit (VSL use a "robot finger" to make it repeatable).

So, if different instruments sound different at the same velocity, that would be a fair reflection of the playing experience on different instruments: variable outcomes for the same input.

The editorial choice that a human would make would be to define the maximum force for vel=127 (as well as the minimal for vel=0, as I imagine we wouldn't start from nothing). I would speculate in pianoteq this choice is consistent within instrument groups (ie. obviously a different choice between the steinway and a steel drum).

So vel=64 falls out of the wash.

for the record velocity = 0 is not the minimum in midi 1.0 as per protocol standard , it is not interpreted as a note -on midi event but as a note -off event  so the minimum is 1 but vel =1 is interpreted as a silent note-on which is different from vel=o as silent notes allow for sympathetic resonance when the key is hold . So vel =2 is the non null minimal volume  audible .

Last edited by Pianistically (05-04-2026 19:30)

Re: Who defines the preset sound at MIDI velocity 64? ...

daniel_r328 wrote:

(VSL use a "robot finger" to make it repeatable).

Is Pianoteq using a "robot finger" too since day one?
With 127 fixed mechanical velocities to sample the original pianos and then design a physical model of the same loudness and sound dynamics?

If so, the mechanical velocity 64 is fixed since the beginning and the physical model would not make a difference if two original pianos have a different dynamic response.

Re: Who defines the preset sound at MIDI velocity 64? ...

groovy wrote:
daniel_r328 wrote:

(VSL use a "robot finger" to make it repeatable).

Is Pianoteq using a "robot finger" too since day one?

Pianoteq doesn't sample from real pianos - and therefore doesn't use a "robot finger" to strike notes on a real piano - so it's really how they tune each aspect of the sound generation - brightness, volume, sustain/envelope vs pitch, etc.

This is also the reason why most piano VI's have a "velocity curve" and most MIDI controllers provide at least a choice of "soft" to "hard" curves. That being said, 127 levels of velocity (which was invented in 1983) is still way more precise than any human could reproduce with his/her hands (:

Re: Who defines the preset sound at MIDI velocity 64? ...

I know that Pianoteq is not a sampler. But don't they use samples for orientation that the physical model is similar to the original piano?

Not important for this thread, but my opinion is, that 127 levels are good-enough, yes, ... but only if the distribution/mapping to mechanical levels is well done. Where many controllers fail. Who or what determines, how a pianoteq piano preset should sound at vel 64, if not a (algorithmic) "robot finger"?

Re: Who defines the preset sound at MIDI velocity 64? ...

groovy wrote:

I know that Pianoteq is not a sampler. But don't they use samples for orientation that the physical model is similar to the original piano?

Not important for this thread, but my opinion is, that 127 levels are good-enough, yes, ... but only if the distribution/mapping to mechanical levels is well done. Where many controllers fail. Who or what determines, how a pianoteq piano preset should sound at vel 64, if not a (algorithmic) "robot finger"?

I wonder why you are focusing on velocity 64 . This is nothing  but a particular value in rhe total midi range. It’s nowhere near half the volume of the difference in decibels between the highest volume at velocity and velocity 2 . That difference is defined by the dynamics parameter D .The  volume at velocity 64 is equal to D  x ([log (64) / log(127))  = D x 0.858
Regarding your question about specific velocity curves by preset , indeed the ideal is to have a velocity curve by for each presets , as many factors influence the beat curve depending on your keyboard midi output own curve , the style of music you play ( classical / rock-pop/jazz) , the dynamics for that preset ( for instance warm presets have a reduced dynamic value) and also for a particular piece the particular response you want and the region where the melodic line is) for reference Horowitz tuned specifically his own acoustic depending on the recital he was playing.

Last edited by Pianistically (06-04-2026 14:50)

Re: Who defines the preset sound at MIDI velocity 64? ...

So you vote for algorithm? ->
Quietest note of the original piano is defined as velocity 2 and loudest as velocity 127. The other volumes are generated by a term similar to D  x ([log (velocity) / log(127))

Re: Who defines the preset sound at MIDI velocity 64? ...

I think that dilemma between the human and the algorithm is false. Surely, the Modartt engineers make use of their knowledge and techniques to create those response curves for the simulated action of the piano hammers; plus, they contrast them by ear against the results in real pianos, and then fine-tune the response curve again and re-compare, and so on. That is how physics and science in general work, I believe, with constant feedback, readjustments, and corrections. I do remember a video of Modartt recording Petrof pianos with robotic fingers in an anechoic chamber to, indeed, adjust the generic physical model to the specific sound of the Petrofs, and they likely do the same with the others.

Last edited by jmanrique (06-04-2026 18:30)

Re: Who defines the preset sound at MIDI velocity 64? ...

An iterative process is possible, which means there is a human factor /arbitrariness  in the velocity response of each instrument preset. Then it is unlikely, that a one-fits-all, global velocity curve for an individual midi controller exists.

Isn't it human to assume that the middle velocity level is associated with the medium / standard / basic response of a virtual instrument? It wouldn't be rationale to think, that the medium response per design is chosen at low vel 32 or  high vel 96 for example. But if humans are iterating it can happen, that one designer balances the medium response of a preset at 61 and the other at 66. Change your preferred velocity curve at mezzo-forte in this magnitude and a preset feels and sounds significantly different.

I have a steep hypothesis at the moment, that a physical background determines the mezzo-forte range of a midi controller:

It is at the point, where the key accelerates with 1G (= 9.81 m/s²)

Why? Based on the graph that has been mentioned in a parallel thread recently:

https://i.postimg.cc/m2KrqCqQ/Korg-B2-plus-FP-90-X-velocity-weight-helplines.png

It seems that the muscle memory "feels" when the hand is accelerated with more than 1G (mf to fff) and slowed down with less than 1G (mp to ppp). From the graph I learned, that with a weight of >=500 g a key acceleration of 1G is reached with a common action. It might be more than a coincidence, that I had calibrated my velocity map just by ear and trial & error to vel 72 at mezzoforte (64) long before. Practically the same velocity ~70 that my midi controller outputs at 1G under factory-defaults.

With this hypothesis the mezzoforte point (64) in the velocity curve can be mapped to the midi velocity at 1G (in this example 70 -> 64). The pianoteq calibration assistant calls this center point "normal touch, neither light nor strong" / "intermediate velocity".

But this is just one fixpoint of five used by the calibration assistant. Would be nice to deduce the other four points of the curve similarly, they seem to be less determined. For the lowest (controllable) velocity, I have chosen the point, where the rubberdome contact collapses under a static weight (can be felt with the fingertip, a bit like fake-let-off). With 100 g the rubber dome holds the weight, with 125 g it collapses (I don't take smaller intervals than 25 g for efficiency).
So I define that calibration point with 125 g.

A higher grade of arbitrariness has the calibration point "low velocity" "light, piano, touch". Between 125 g and 500 g I have chosen 250 g for this calibration point. It is in between the former values (of course) and the half of 500 g. And 125 g is the half of 250 g. I hope for some hidden math, that it makes some sense ;-), at least it provides a very similar value like my old trial & error curve.

The fff mapping is relatively uncomplicated, because my controller seems to be limited somewhere at 105.

You may ask at this point, where is calibration point 4, the forte f mapping? I have no idea at the moment, how to map this point other than trial & error ...

Re: Who defines the preset sound at MIDI velocity 64? ...

Hey, I feel you're trying to answer two questions at the same time:

1. How does one calibrate a piano action for an optimal, expressive range of dynamics?, and
2. How does the MIDI velocity parameter get mapped to audio samples* to establish a realistic playing response?

One observation I'd like to offer is that these are two separate issues: Problem (1) is a hardware configuration issue independent of MIDI (acoustic instruments have to solve this as well), and for problem (2) the creators of the VI do not know which hardware they will be played on and how it is configured, so they can't make predictions like "aha, a 1G acceleration will produce vel=64 on every keyboard".

In other words there is no fixed relationship between what is done to a keyboard key vs the resulting hammer/sensor action (which informs the MIDI velocity) vs the "correct" sound to produce in this moment. (On a pedantic note, I might remark that there isn't a fixed relationship between the dynamic, which is a subject of musical interpretation, and strength of attack, either: an mf over here is different to an mf over there. But that's beside the point.)

Hence why velocity mapping is so essential.

Of course it makes sense to set up your VI so that vel=64 is "something in the middle" so that you have enough sensor resolution in both the softer and louder direction, but that doesn't suggest there's a (need or possibility for) vel=64 being calibrated to a particular attack strength, or dynamic.


*in a sampled VI

Re: Who defines the preset sound at MIDI velocity 64? ...

daniel_r328 wrote:

Of course it makes sense to set up your VI so that vel=64 is "something in the middle" so that you have enough sensor resolution in both the softer and louder direction, [...]

... this is where the dependency chain starts, at the designer/creator of the VI preset (not influenced by the user). Then comes a velocity mapper (user domain), then the midi controller hardware (user domain). If there is more or less arbitrariness in the start definition of "something in the middle", it has impact on the rest of the chain. Therefore my initial question, who or what defines that initial "in the middle" and whether it is done systematically inside PTQ.   

[...] but that doesn't suggest there's a (need or possibility for) vel=64 being calibrated to a particular attack strength, or dynamic.

Yes, all that we know is, that the designer "wants" a velocity mapper output of 64 as input for his center response . How it translates to the rest of the chain, is free ... but maybe not as free as we think. If the (earth) acceleration of 1G of a hammer action is the mechanical analogon to a heard "something in the middle", it makes calibration easier. With ~500 g we get a good approximation of 1G. Together with the circumstance, that all digital hammer actions have more in common than what divides them, the chain can be linked via the velocity mapper. In my example a keyboard note outputs vel 70 at 1G and is velocity-mapped to 64 which is what Pianoteq "wants" for a  normal touch, neither light nor strong.

BTW, wonder if this concept works on the moon ;-). Let's call the lower acceleration on the moon 1M instead of 1G. I suppose, the midi output of a drop weight, that accelerates the key with 1M on the moon, should be mapped to the "something in the middle" response (64) in Pianoteq.

Of course individual finetuning of this medium response +/-2 levels remains a good idea and it has to be counterchecked on other midi controllers than just mine.