Topic by groovy

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Topic: Who defines the preset sound at MIDI velocity 64? ...

... a person or an algorithm?

A piano preset sound at MIDI velocity 64 is in the "middle" of a scale of 128 possible values. Who decides, which sound of a recorded piano represents this velocity 64 in an instrument preset?

Is it a person, who says: This recorded sound represents the medium character of that instrument the best to my ears, let's define it as vel 64!

Or is it an algorithm, that divides the "loudness" range in 128 steps from the quietest to the loudest playable sound of a note?

If there is no systematic in this process, it probably makes sense to customize the velocity curve for each instrument preset. Maybe even after a revoicing update.

Reply by daniel_r328

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Re: Who defines the preset sound at MIDI velocity 64? ...

Velocity is guided by mechanics rather than tone. In Pianoteq, this would be the momentum with which the hammer hits the simulated strings. In sampled VIs, this would be the strength with which a key is hit (VSL use a "robot finger" to make it repeatable).

So, if different instruments sound different at the same velocity, that would be a fair reflection of the playing experience on different instruments: variable outcomes for the same input.

The editorial choice that a human would make would be to define the maximum force for vel=127 (as well as the minimal for vel=0, as I imagine we wouldn't start from nothing). I would speculate in pianoteq this choice is consistent within instrument groups (ie. obviously a different choice between the steinway and a steel drum).

So vel=64 falls out of the wash.

Reply by Pianistically

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Re: Who defines the preset sound at MIDI velocity 64? ...

daniel_r328 wrote:

Velocity is guided by mechanics rather than tone. In Pianoteq, this would be the momentum with which the hammer hits the simulated strings. In sampled VIs, this would be the strength with which a key is hit (VSL use a "robot finger" to make it repeatable).

So, if different instruments sound different at the same velocity, that would be a fair reflection of the playing experience on different instruments: variable outcomes for the same input.

The editorial choice that a human would make would be to define the maximum force for vel=127 (as well as the minimal for vel=0, as I imagine we wouldn't start from nothing). I would speculate in pianoteq this choice is consistent within instrument groups (ie. obviously a different choice between the steinway and a steel drum).

So vel=64 falls out of the wash.

for the record velocity = 0 is not the minimum in midi 1.0 as per protocol standard , it is not interpreted as a note -on midi event but as a note -off event  so the minimum is 1 but vel =1 is interpreted as a silent note-on which is different from vel=o as silent notes allow for sympathetic resonance when the key is hold . So vel =2 is the non null minimal volume  audible .

Last edited by Pianistically (05-04-2026 19:30)

Reply by groovy

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Re: Who defines the preset sound at MIDI velocity 64? ...

daniel_r328 wrote:

(VSL use a "robot finger" to make it repeatable).

Is Pianoteq using a "robot finger" too since day one?
With 127 fixed mechanical velocities to sample the original pianos and then design a physical model of the same loudness and sound dynamics?

If so, the mechanical velocity 64 is fixed since the beginning and the physical model would not make a difference if two original pianos have a different dynamic response.

Reply by delt

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Re: Who defines the preset sound at MIDI velocity 64? ...

groovy wrote:
daniel_r328 wrote:

(VSL use a "robot finger" to make it repeatable).

Is Pianoteq using a "robot finger" too since day one?

Pianoteq doesn't sample from real pianos - and therefore doesn't use a "robot finger" to strike notes on a real piano - so it's really how they tune each aspect of the sound generation - brightness, volume, sustain/envelope vs pitch, etc.

This is also the reason why most piano VI's have a "velocity curve" and most MIDI controllers provide at least a choice of "soft" to "hard" curves. That being said, 127 levels of velocity (which was invented in 1983) is still way more precise than any human could reproduce with his/her hands (:

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Reply by groovy

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Re: Who defines the preset sound at MIDI velocity 64? ...

I know that Pianoteq is not a sampler. But don't they use samples for orientation that the physical model is similar to the original piano?

Not important for this thread, but my opinion is, that 127 levels are good-enough, yes, ... but only if the distribution/mapping to mechanical levels is well done. Where many controllers fail. Who or what determines, how a pianoteq piano preset should sound at vel 64, if not a (algorithmic) "robot finger"?

Reply by Pianistically

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Re: Who defines the preset sound at MIDI velocity 64? ...

groovy wrote:

I know that Pianoteq is not a sampler. But don't they use samples for orientation that the physical model is similar to the original piano?

Not important for this thread, but my opinion is, that 127 levels are good-enough, yes, ... but only if the distribution/mapping to mechanical levels is well done. Where many controllers fail. Who or what determines, how a pianoteq piano preset should sound at vel 64, if not a (algorithmic) "robot finger"?

I wonder why you are focusing on velocity 64 . This is nothing  but a particular value in rhe total midi range. It’s nowhere near half the volume of the difference in decibels between the highest volume at velocity and velocity 2 . That difference is defined by the dynamics parameter D .The  volume at velocity 64 is equal to D  x ([log (64) / log(127))  = D x 0.858
Regarding your question about specific velocity curves by preset , indeed the ideal is to have a velocity curve by for each presets , as many factors influence the beat curve depending on your keyboard midi output own curve , the style of music you play ( classical / rock-pop/jazz) , the dynamics for that preset ( for instance warm presets have a reduced dynamic value) and also for a particular piece the particular response you want and the region where the melodic line is) for reference Horowitz tuned specifically his own acoustic depending on the recital he was playing.

Last edited by Pianistically (Yesterday 14:50)

Reply by groovy

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Re: Who defines the preset sound at MIDI velocity 64? ...

So you vote for algorithm? ->
Quietest note of the original piano is defined as velocity 2 and loudest as velocity 127. The other volumes are generated by a term similar to D  x ([log (velocity) / log(127))

Reply by jmanrique

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Re: Who defines the preset sound at MIDI velocity 64? ...

I think that dilemma between the human and the algorithm is false. Surely, the Modartt engineers make use of their knowledge and techniques to create those response curves for the simulated action of the piano hammers; plus, they contrast them by ear against the results in real pianos, and then fine-tune the response curve again and re-compare, and so on. That is how physics and science in general work, I believe, with constant feedback, readjustments, and corrections. I do remember a video of Modartt recording Petrof pianos with robotic fingers in an anechoic chamber to, indeed, adjust the generic physical model to the specific sound of the Petrofs, and they likely do the same with the others.

Last edited by jmanrique (Yesterday 18:30)