Topic: Is the expression pedal necessary?

Hi all,

I just purchased Organteq 2 and also ordered a MIDI pedalboard for my pipe organ journey but not sure what else I'll need to be able to play this instrument properly (I'm an intermediate piano player but haven't played pipe organ before).

Of course I have a MIDI keyboard and I have a good electric standing desk so I'll be able to adjust the keyboard height when the pedalboard arrives. I've also found a solution for my organ bench too; it's a combo of electric standing desk legs plus a wide MDF benchtop.

Now I see many organ has an expression pedal (I think it's also called a swell pedal?) and the only thing I know is it controls volumn. Is it necessary? If I need different volumes for different stop combinations, why can't I use Organteq 2 to pre-set them?

Or maybe the expression pedal can be used to change combinations, like the one in the Organteq 2 console? Is it useful? But I assume it'll be easier to do so with a product like the Behringer FCB1010 MIDI Foot Controller?

https://www.amazon.com.au/BEHRINGER-MID...B000CZ0RK6

Please educate me if I said anything stupid. As I said, I'm pretty new to pipe organ playing.

Any input is appreciated.

Re: Is the expression pedal necessary?

Acon wrote:

Hi all,

I just purchased Organteq 2 and also ordered a MIDI pedalboard for my pipe organ journey but not sure what else I'll need to be able to play this instrument properly (I'm an intermediate piano player but haven't played pipe organ before).

Of course I have a MIDI keyboard and I have a good electric standing desk so I'll be able to adjust the keyboard height when the pedalboard arrives. I've also found a solution for my organ bench too; it's a combo of electric standing desk legs plus a wide MDF benchtop.

Now I see many organ has an expression pedal (I think it's also called a swell pedal?) and the only thing I know is it controls volumn. Is it necessary? If I need different volumes for different stop combinations, why can't I use Organteq 2 to pre-set them?

Or maybe the expression pedal can be used to change combinations, like the one in the Organteq 2 console? Is it useful? But I assume it'll be easier to do so with a product like the Behringer FCB1010 MIDI Foot Controller?

https://www.amazon.com.au/BEHRINGER-MID...B000CZ0RK6

Please educate me if I said anything stupid. As I said, I'm pretty new to pipe organ playing.

Any input is appreciated.


Hello Acon and welcome to this forum,

I don’t have a pedalboard yet but I’m using Organteq 2 (and Orgtq 1 sometimes). First to say . Everything in Organteq can be tweaked.
Regarding your questions I say look at manual:

3.8. Expression pedal
Pipes are enclosed in keyboard divisions. The expression pedals allow to open the wooden blinds of one or several divisions, yielding a much louder and richer sound.
Stops can be individually added to or removed from any expression pedal from the Expression pedal settings panel.

3.9. Crescendo pedal
The crescendo pedal gradually activates stops in addition to the manual registration.
The crescendo pedal is divided into 24 steps. For each step, a stop can be On or Off. Set the stop individually from the Crescendo settings panel.
In the same way as the stops, couplers and tremulants can also be switched on or off by the crescendo pedal.

And,

On Modartt yt site there are at least 10 Organteq 2 tutorials. It takes a lot of time to learn but testing and working, it is really worth it. I have about over 300 pieces in forum/ YouTube and I love Organteq.

Good Luck!

Best wishes,

Stig

Re: Is the expression pedal necessary?

Thanks Stig,

I guess I need to really watch the tutorials and play around with the software before buying any expression pedal. The pedalboard maker also suggests me not use an expression pedal at the moment since I'll only play Baroque music.

Re: Is the expression pedal necessary?

You're correct that for Baroque playing (if you're after the period style and sound) the expression pedal is almost non-existent.  The first Swell boxes and mechanisms are from the 1710s and 1720s and primarily in England (hence the name is in English and the German name "Schwellwerk" is translated from English--rather than the more usual other-way-round, indicating how long it took for the idea to catch on throughout the Continent).   Cavaillé-Coll improved the mechanism, so it sees the most use in Romantic literature and onward.

I confess that I hardly ever use the Swell pedal: mostly when I do, it's in church settings where you want the organ to be as quiet/muffled as possible (for example, you're supporting a congregation on a very "reverent" hymn and the congregation consists of less 50 people of which 3 are actually singing--so anything other than an 8' Bourdon or at most Principal behind the fully closed swell shutters will drown them).  Otherwise, the organ has to be very large (dozens to hundreds of stops) for it to make a practical difference in the sound of the instrument for most of the literature I play.  (Perfect if you want hyper-precise control of the dynamics of a Widor symphony but as I'm usually too busy trying to play the right notes in something like that to care about granular crescendos I don't bother because "skill issue," and they're indispensable for theater organ work and--again--the largest pipe organs where you want full stereophonic control of divisions--think organs with 3-12K pipes potentially across multiple organ lofts.)  In fairness, the smallest organs sometimes can really use a good swell box as well in certain situations (you'll see them in a lot of choir organs--sometimes being entirely a swell box--termed "under expression"--for the entire instrument), because--when the sound of the organ is limited to less than ten stops or worse even less than six--smooth transitions of volume are impossible and very distracting, such that a swell box can readily smooth that out.  It also helps give pitch support to a choir without competing with them as much as with the swell box fully open.

I wouldn't worry too much about acquiring one immediately.  I don't have one at the moment: I just use a slider on one of my midi controllers for the once-in-a-while time I need it in Organteq.  A crescendo pedal (or shoe) is more useful for me personally, as it's a very nice shorthand for doing lazy registrations.  Though again, all of these functions can be easily achieved with any knob or slider on a MIDI controller.  After all, in the Baroque era, you had to open and close stops yourself (which could be terribly slow on the larger organs) or have an assistant on hand to do it for you--so I generally avoid any such "modern conveniences" in my playing/registration.  The videos of Karl Richter performing are very instructive in that regard, like the film of his Bach Toccata and Fugue.

You'll only need a "true" pedal/shoe if you're hands aren't free enough to make adjustments or press buttons in what you're playing or you're trying have as accurate a console as possible for specific rehearsal purposes.  Generally, you're more likely to have a foot free to use crescendo and swell "shoes" or toe pistons than you will to have a free hand or thumb for a registration change, hence why they exist.  (Though if memory serves, many early swell-boxes were hand cranked and the foot operation was invented later but I could easily be wrong on that point.)

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/2xHiPcCsm29R12HX4eXd4J
Pianoteq Studio & Organteq
Casio GP300 & Custom organ console

Re: Is the expression pedal necessary?

Thanks tmyoung! That was really professional and educational info.

I'm thinking about using this Behringer FCB1010 to do the job:
https://www.behringer.com/product.html?...e=0715-AAA

It has two pedals so maybe I can use one as the expression pedal and one as the crescendo pedal? Most importantly it has 10 foot buttons so I might be able to use them to change the combinations of stops/couplers, etc during the playing?

I did see a guy using it with his Hauptwerk organ somewhere on Facebook but couldn't find the link anymore.

Is that a good choice, or anything better to suit the needs? I know it's not pretty compared to a real organ with built-in pedals and buttons.

Re: Is the expression pedal necessary?

You're very kind!  Thank you.

I've talked myself in-and-out of buying that very pedalboard accessory for years.  It's the best budget option by far, but it's a little buggy.  Most issues revolve around situations where the device loses power and manages to wipe its entire internal memory/programming.  While that's not a huge deal for many OTQ use cases, there are some i/o reliability issues caused by that.

Also, it's not a USB device, so it's exclusive to MIDI connectivity only, which (while by no means a deal-breaker) can create something of headache in how to route it.  (Somewhere in the back of mind, I'm recalling a long thread over a decade ago another forum where they talked about the challenges of setting channels with this device when paired with certain MIDI keyboards.)  Any basic USB MIDI converter for under $50 will solve the problem, but it's another expense to keep in mind (and in my case, I already have multiple budget MIDI adapters and keeping track of "Generic USB MIDI device (1)" is as difficult as keeping track of multiple keyboards of the same brand and all it takes is a power fluctuation and you're starting your MIDI configuration from scratch).

Being that it was more designed for guitar pedal work, it can be a little "clunky" when used for organ stuff.  That said, you can't beat it for the price.  Some single expression pedals (even on the more budget-friendly side of things) are closer to more a more "authentic" organ experience--as their action is designed to used as at angle far forward of the musician unlike guitar pedals which are almost beneath the player (as that would be where the organ pedals are), but often those run multiple times more than the entire Behringer unit--and they still (often) need some proprietary connection or at least an additional connection/connector to talk to OTQ.  It's nice to have two pedals (crescendo and swell) plus ten toe pistons, but it's somewhat awkward to add it to setups with pedalboards (especially large AGO units).  Also, the higher-end units have better actuators and mechanism that will last a lot longer and are designed with organ consoles more in mind.  Good consoles parts should last decades of use, this...not so much...

For you, I think you'd just need to decide if you're comfortable with the price and with the fact that it won't be a lifelong/scalable solution to the problem--go for it, as it will certainly last you on the order of many months to a few years.  The more you build your VPO, the more the device will "fight with you" in your setup, but until you reach a level where it's more headache than help, you're not going to find a better solution in that price range (especially if you're lucky enough to score a decent condition used unit at a sensible price).  If $100-200 now buys you a better experience than $500-800 or more will buy you some undetermined-number-of-years down the road, you'll find it has sufficient value to you.

For my part, I still haven't bought one, because every time I'm about to, I decided that I'd rather wait for a more complete solution to my console needs than continuing to buy little-by-little as my office studio is extremely space-limited.  So piecemealing and cobbling a solution doesn't win me much anymore.

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/2xHiPcCsm29R12HX4eXd4J
Pianoteq Studio & Organteq
Casio GP300 & Custom organ console

Re: Is the expression pedal necessary?

Thanks again tmyoung for the insightful thoughts about the Behringer FCB1010. These are not something you can easily find on the internet because most of the users, as you said, are not virtual pipe organ players. So your post is truly valuable for new Organteq/Hauptwerk users like me.

Alessandro from PedaMidiKit sent me an email yesterday and told me my pedalboard is ready for shipping. Some pics of my pedalboard (PMK STS 27):

https://prnt.sc/9IR1CJelLhVV
https://prnt.sc/2Va0iODiqmou
https://prnt.sc/q4ojvrY3gD3R

Isn't that beautiful? For someone who has always dreamed of playing pipe organ, that will be the best gift of the year. I'll see how it goes before I decide if I really need an (or two) extra pedal (s).

Re: Is the expression pedal necessary?

Acon wrote:

Thanks again tmyoung for the insightful thoughts about the Behringer FCB1010. These are not something you can easily find on the internet because most of the users, as you said, are not virtual pipe organ players. So your post is truly valuable for new Organteq/Hauptwerk users like me.

Alessandro from PedaMidiKit sent me an email yesterday and told me my pedalboard is ready for shipping. Some pics of my pedalboard (PMK STS 27):

https://prnt.sc/9IR1CJelLhVV
https://prnt.sc/2Va0iODiqmou
https://prnt.sc/q4ojvrY3gD3R

Isn't that beautiful? For someone who has always dreamed of playing pipe organ, that will be the best gift of the year. I'll see how it goes before I decide if I really need an (or two) extra pedal (s).

Okay...you're truly committed to going for the "real thing" in which case, I'd definitely put the FCB1010 money towards something that will pair better with your pedalboard.  (Which looks really nice!!! I've been impressed with how his stuff looks and is priced and I'm glad to know it translates in the final product.  I'm suitably and appropriately envious... )

If you're still wanting a pedal, I'd look at "organ style" expression pedals or "long throw" expression pedals.  Basically avoid the M-Audio one and the Behringer FCB1010 and others targeting the guitar pedal market (I have nothing against the guitar pedal market, they're just not the right thing for the job).  There are under $100 options like the Behringer FCV100 V2, Studio Logic VP-27 and Nektar Universal.  Over $100, you've got the Behringer Heavy Duty, Crumar EXP-10 and other long-throw models (which often are designed to be installed recessed in the console), various Hammond pedals, and the double Viscount Expression Pedal--to name a few.  I'd probably opt for one of the budget options or the Viscount (as it's designed for mounting onto wood or metal but not knowing exactly what your final console design will be, a recessed pedal like a Crumar might be better).  Nearly any of these will work more-or-less as well as another, and I can't speak to one being better than another in most cases.  I'd go for one you can easily mount above and behind your new pedalboard, again if you choose to add that to your setup.

You're wise to get your pedalboard settled in before you worry about what you're missing: the pedalboard will give you ten times close to what you want out of your VPO than the swell pedal could.  Be sure you're truly missing it before investing.

Happy playing!

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/2xHiPcCsm29R12HX4eXd4J
Pianoteq Studio & Organteq
Casio GP300 & Custom organ console

Re: Is the expression pedal necessary?

Thanks heaps again tmyoung for your valuable info, including these brands and model names. That will save me tons of time. Now I can narrow down the list and focus on these products as a starting point for my research.

Yes I think I'll just play my pedalboard for a while before I really invest in an extra pedal.

BTW I just ordered a pair of organ shoes today haha.