Topic by aWc

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Topic: Shigeru Kawai model...revisited

I re-evaluated the new kid on the block...I played it from a better weighted controller and tweaked its velocity curve (the keyboard, not Pianoteq). Plus I matched the volume more closely to my other favorites and turned off the limiter. I also reduced the Unison width quite a bit (it was 1.6 on the Ryuyo preset!).  Surprise, surprise (?)...it sounded way better. So much so that I promptly purchased it. Now I get almost as much dynamics with the Shigeru as the Bösendorfer. Qexl was right (I really value his opinion...he is the Mary Poppins of audio, really

Lesson learned, again. I cannot stress enough how crucial the velocity curve settings AND the final volume are for a proper experience (for any piano recreation, but somehow particularly with Pianoteq). And as the question inevitably arises from newcomers to Pianoteq: "which models should I get", I concur with whoever said on the Forum "get the latest". Indeed, the Bösendorfer and Shigeru Kawai are both outstanding. They both get the closest ever to playing a great acoustic grand.

Last edited by aWc (29-11-2024 22:57)
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Reply by Beto-Music

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Re: Shigeru Kawai model...revisited

I said many times, we MUST always set the  MIDI controller velocity to heavy, in order to get the best possible dynamics and to avoid that FFF be reach too easilly. Only after that we can start to set pianoteq velocity curves to our taste.
This ensure the best possible quality for good dynamic playing.


It may be wise to add a warning about such things, to display right after pianoteq instalation is finished.

Last edited by Beto-Music (30-11-2024 00:14)

Reply by vorpal

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Re: Shigeru Kawai model...revisited

Beto-Music wrote:

I said many times, we MUST always set the  MIDI controller velocity to heavy, in order to get the best possible dynamics and to avoid that FFF be reach too easilly. Only after that we can start to set pianoteq velocity curves to our taste.
This ensure the best possible quality for good dynamic playing.


It may be wise to add a warning about such things, to display right after pianoteq instalation is finished.

Absolutely second this advice. I've only been running Pianoteq for the last couple of weeks but found I was always banging up against the  limiter on ff playing, regardless of how I set the velocity and note volumes. It was getting frustrating that I couldn't get a normal dynamic response from the program regardless of which piano I selected. After reading the above post this morning, I came home and set the MIDI response in my ProRecord sensor rail to the heaviest setting (it was default set to the middle of 8 settings between light and heavy). Went back into Pianoteq and now I can build f - ff  - fff without clipping out. I spent the last hour rejigging the velocity curves and note volumes in my modified preset pianos... what a difference!

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Reply by bernard

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Re: Shigeru Kawai model...revisited

to stay in this perspective of optimizing the settings between ppp and fff, what can we say about the "dynamics" setting which is most of the time initially set to 40 db, would it not be wise to increase it to widen the possibility of nuance the game?

Last edited by bernard (30-11-2024 06:52)

Reply by dikrek

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Re: Shigeru Kawai model...revisited

bernard wrote:

to stay in this perspective of optimizing the settings between ppp and fff, what can we say about the "dynamics" setting which is most of the time initially set to 40 db, would it not be wise to increase it to widen the possibility of nuance the game?

Try:

Turning off limiter
Increasing dynamics to 45
Lowering volume

Reply by Gadaga31@gmail.com

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Re: Shigeru Kawai model...revisited

Hi,

I've tried what you suggested. I use a Roland FP10 and one can set the 'key touch' parameter, which I understand as being the velocity setting. It goes from 0 to 100 (very slow). When I go over 50, I can't get more than 95 (decimal) as midi output  (I see that in MIDI-OX program) when hitting a key as hard as I can. So what should I do?? By the way, if I set this to 30 the max midi output is 127 when hitting the hardest I can, so that's OK. When I set it below 30, I reach 127 much easier so I'm clipping I suppose.  So does this mean 30 is the right setting for me? Or higher?

Thanks


Beto-Music wrote:

I said many times, we MUST always set the  MIDI controller velocity to heavy, in order to get the best possible dynamics and to avoid that FFF be reach too easilly. Only after that we can start to set pianoteq velocity curves to our taste.
This ensure the best possible quality for good dynamic playing.


It may be wise to add a warning about such things, to display right after pianoteq instalation is finished.

Reply by Luc Henrion

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Re: Shigeru Kawai model...revisited

I'm not sure about this mandatory "heavy" setting... I happen to play on 4 (very) different keyboards (Kurzweil K2500, Alesis Fusion 8HD, Casio PX350 and Yamaha MX88) and while this is true for the Yamaha, it isn't for the Casio, e.g. And if a FP10 can't reach 127 when adjusted too heavy, it's a problem, don't you think so ? The velocity curve settings are more important IMHO. Just my 2 cents, of course...

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Reply by Beto-Music

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Re: Shigeru Kawai model...revisited

Well, good point.
Most digital controllers/digital pianos probably don't have a so wide dynamic as yours, which means they can reach FFF easier than FP10 even if adjust key touch is set to heavy.

In this case you must find the FP10 key touch setting that is best for you, in this case the setting that allows your hardest playing to reach FFF, and then perform fine setting in pianoteq velocity curves.

Of coarse, in a real piano if someone can't reach FFF, that is what it is, unless trainning muscles to get stronger is considered . In digital world we make things more possible.
So, if your intention is to use digital piano for practice, and a real grand piano for performance, like a piano student, it may be wise to do not let digital tools making things so easy, but leave some gap to stimulate you gradually built/improve yourself.

I'm now wondering if Roland FP10's plastic keys can endure FFF playing if the key sensibility is set to 100 (heaviest).

Gadaga31@gmail.com wrote:

Hi,

I've tried what you suggested. I use a Roland FP10 and one can set the 'key touch' parameter, which I understand as being the velocity setting. It goes from 0 to 100 (very slow). When I go over 50, I can't get more than 95 (decimal) as midi output  (I see that in MIDI-OX program) when hitting a key as hard as I can. So what should I do?? By the way, if I set this to 30 the max midi output is 127 when hitting the hardest I can, so that's OK. When I set it below 30, I reach 127 much easier so I'm clipping I suppose.  So does this mean 30 is the right setting for me? Or higher?

Thanks


Beto-Music wrote:

I said many times, we MUST always set the  MIDI controller velocity to heavy, in order to get the best possible dynamics and to avoid that FFF be reach too easilly. Only after that we can start to set pianoteq velocity curves to our taste.
This ensure the best possible quality for good dynamic playing.


It may be wise to add a warning about such things, to display right after pianoteq instalation is finished.

Last edited by Beto-Music (30-11-2024 12:13)

Reply by Beto-Music

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Re: Shigeru Kawai model...revisited

Pianoteq's dynamic slider is about volume and not key velocity strike. If should not be set before the digital controller key touch and pianoteq velocity curves adjusts.

Some few people find pianoteq's tone less natural at very high velocities and prefer to limit the key velocity in velocity curves graphic adjust, and try to compensate the reduced dynamic feeling of sound by increasing the dynamic slider (volume dynamics).
But after the latest welcome upgrades in pianoteq's sound quality, with more natural sound tone, it's less likely that people will do that.

bernard wrote:

to stay in this perspective of optimizing the settings between ppp and fff, what can we say about the "dynamics" setting which is most of the time initially set to 40 db, would it not be wise to increase it to widen the possibility of nuance the game?

Last edited by Beto-Music (30-11-2024 12:24)

Reply by Beto-Music

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Re: Shigeru Kawai model...revisited

Yes, it's a interesting point.

Most controllers reach FFF, when set go heaviest touch, by most performers when they try the hardest playing they can.
But in case it don't, like with Roland FP10, the key touch limit for FFF must be set closer to the performer's strengh.

It's important to look the MIDI velocity (1 to 127 in pianoteq 's velocity curves graphic) while setting the digital piano/controller key touch.
Once you find the key touch that reach 127 for your heaviest possible playing, that is probably the key touch to choose and, only then, start to do fine adjust in pianoteq velocity curves.


But like I said to Gadaga31, we must be carefull about allow digital world make things so easier, cause real world is not easy, so it may wise to still allow some few gap to stimulate us to get better and better.

And also do not to "try built Rome in one single day", as it can leads to tendinites.
:-)

Luc Henrion wrote:

I'm not sure about this mandatory "heavy" setting... I happen to play on 4 (very) different keyboards (Kurzweil K2500, Alesis Fusion 8HD, Casio PX350 and Yamaha MX88) and while this is true for the Yamaha, it isn't for the Casio, e.g. And if a FP10 can't reach 127 when adjusted too heavy, it's a problem, don't you think so ? The velocity curve settings are more important IMHO. Just my 2 cents, of course...

Last edited by Beto-Music (30-11-2024 12:46)

Reply by Coises

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Re: Shigeru Kawai model...revisited

Gadaga31@gmail.com wrote:

I use a Roland FP10 and one can set the 'key touch' parameter, which I understand as being the velocity setting. It goes from 0 to 100 (very slow). When I go over 50, I can't get more than 95 (decimal) as midi output  (I see that in MIDI-OX program) when hitting a key as hard as I can. So what should I do?? By the way, if I set this to 30 the max midi output is 127 when hitting the hardest I can, so that's OK. When I set it below 30, I reach 127 much easier so I'm clipping I suppose.  So does this mean 30 is the right setting for me? Or higher?

I would say that’s the way. You want to set it at the highest possible value such that the hardest you would ever conceivably play (not necessarily the hardest you can possibly bang it... but pretty close to that!) gives 127.

The hardware setting is about communicating with the computer effectively, without either losing the “meaning” of striking as hard as you can (if the setting is too low) or being unable to use all 127 steps of resolution (if the setting is too high). You can’t compensate for setting it too low; when you pound like Thor’s hammer, the information just won’t get through to the software. You can compensate for setting it too high by changing the velocity curves in software, but then you’re losing detail — you can’t map 95 steps onto 127 steps without there being some of those 127 steps that will never be used. So what you suggest is indeed optimal — do it by the numbers, not by the “feel.”

Then you can see if you need to make changes to the velocity curves in Pianoteq. Just my personal opinion: I set the hardware keyboard and leave the Pianoteq curves alone. With an acoustic piano, you can’t set the touch; you adapt your playing to the touch the piano has.

I do notice differences in touch with the pianos I have in Pianoteq. I don’t try to adjust them away; I think that’s part of the difference in character. They play differently, which is as it should be.

Last edited by Coises (30-11-2024 18:48)

Reply by aWc

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Re: Shigeru Kawai model...revisited

Funny, it's the Alesis Fusion 8HD that I tweaked and used to re-evaluate the Shigeru Kawai model ( I sold the Roland FP-80 that I used before when I acquired a MIDI-equiped grand piano)! On est certainement peu nombreux à posséder ce synth. Formidable instrument (surtout en rajoutant les banques de sons "third party"), et le clavier est pas mal du tout.

Luc Henrion wrote:

I'm not sure about this mandatory "heavy" setting... I happen to play on 4 (very) different keyboards (Kurzweil K2500, Alesis Fusion 8HD, Casio PX350 and Yamaha MX88) and while this is true for the Yamaha, it isn't for the Casio, e.g. And if a FP10 can't reach 127 when adjusted too heavy, it's a problem, don't you think so ? The velocity curve settings are more important IMHO. Just my 2 cents, of course...

Last edited by aWc (30-11-2024 20:14)
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Reply by aWc

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Re: Shigeru Kawai model...revisited

Yes, I would say that from version 7 or 8 now, the basic velocity curve in Pianoteq is spot on most of the time (it wasn't the case in earlier versions, because the different models were not  really standardized).

Coises wrote:

Just my personal opinion: I set the hardware keyboard and leave the Pianoteq curves alone. With an acoustic piano, you can’t set the touch; you adapt your playing to the touch the piano has.
I do notice differences in touch with the pianos I have in Pianoteq. I don’t try to adjust them away; I think that’s part of the difference in character. They play differently, which is as it should be.

PT 7.3 with Steinway B and D, U4 upright, YC5, Bechstein DG, Steingraeber, Ant. Petrov, Kremsegg Collection #2, Electric Pianos and Hohner Collection. http://antoinewcaron.com

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Reply by Fleer

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Re: Shigeru Kawai model...revisited

aWc wrote:

I re-evaluated the new kid on the block...I played it from a better weighted controller and tweaked its velocity curve (the keyboard, not Pianoteq). Plus I matched the volume more closely to my other favorites and turned off the limiter. I also reduced the Unison width quite a bit (it was 1.6 on the Ryuyo preset!).  Surprise, surprise (?)...it sounded way better. So much so that I promptly purchased it. Now I get almost as much dynamics with the Shigeru as the Bösendorfer. Qexl was right (I really value his opinion...he is the Mary Poppins of audio, really

Lesson learned, again. I cannot stress enough how crucial the velocity curve settings AND the final volume are for a proper experience (for any piano recreation, but somehow particularly with Pianoteq). And as the question inevitably arises from newcomers to Pianoteq: "which models should I get", I concur with whoever said on the Forum "get the latest". Indeed, the Bösendorfer and Shigeru Kawai are both outstanding. They both get the closest ever to playing a great acoustic grand.

Now you got me rethinking as well…

Pianoteq Pro Studio with Bösendorfer, Shigeru Kawai and Organteq

Reply by Qexl

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Re: Shigeru Kawai model...revisited

@aWc - really so glad you found the new Shigeru Kawai a delight!

Antoine wrote:

he is the Mary Poppins of audio, really

Hehe - that gave me the nicest laugh I've had in a long time

The hiiills are aliiiiiive! with the soOouuuuuuund of muuuusiiic.. doh.. doh.. wrong movie! Not sure if I'm as floatable, even during the stormiest of weather with my 'brollie in hand but I'll take it hehe! BTW - before going on, you know I always have nothing but respect for you aWc - so am sincerely glad you found your styling with it

(Tap tap tap the conductor staff on the music stand.. pause for attention).

Seriously, the Modartt folks are the absolute GOAT imho!!

(Bangs the gavel).

And it is so.

(perhaps overly sufficient comedic pause)..

...

(and.. ... ... Fluoofff.. opens brollie and disappears into the sky).


To me, all the pianos are a joy - but for sure the Shigeru Kawai is a beautiful instrument. It could possibly be my fav, by dint of the way it impressively sits in vicinity of which ever direction you might wish to take it.

Hope you're making a new album - no matter which piano you choose - wishing you always the best Antoine!

Defo worth a rethink imho Fleer - but it is absolutely just a taste thing.. nothing stops me enjoying the older pianos too

You are all 'da best'!

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Reply by aWc

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Re: Shigeru Kawai model...revisited

Qexl wrote:

@aWc - really so glad you found the new Shigeru Kawai a delight!

Antoine wrote:

he is the Mary Poppins of audio, really

Hehe - that gave me the nicest laugh I've had in a long time

Hope you're making a new album - no matter which piano you choose - wishing you always the best Antoine!


Cheers Ben! I am glad I gave you a good laugh, boy do we need it these days...
A new album? A definite...maybe. Actively cleaning up a bunch of improvs and new tunes. Who knows.
Hail the power of Pianoteq!
All the best!

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Reply by Fleer

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Re: Shigeru Kawai model...revisited

Qexl wrote:

Defo worth a rethink imho Fleer - but it is absolutely just a taste thing.. nothing stops me enjoying the older pianos too

You got me, @Qexl.
Kawai in da house!
And it’s a beauty

Pianoteq Pro Studio with Bösendorfer, Shigeru Kawai and Organteq