I love the layer feature in Pianoteq. Do you all think they would ever add a synth or pad model? Would be helpful to be able to layer a pad or strings underneath a piano or Rhodes. This would make the standalone app even greater for live performance.
Thoughts?
OK, here's a thought: if you could insert a VST plug-in (any kind) into the stand-alone version, it would open up a whole host of possibilities...
OK, here's a thought: if you could insert a VST plug-in (any kind) into the stand-alone version, it would open up a whole host of possibilities...
Well yes. I had that thought but doubt they would make the standalone app a VSTi host. But I guess they could shop their format like Native Instrument did with their NKS format.
I have Roland Galaxias and it does 4 sound layers at a time (similar to Jupiter X scenes). They just added better pianos (earth pianos) but they are not as good as Pianoteq's Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, and Petrof models. I'd love to layer the Zenology engine with Pianoteq. I do so in my DAW and it's fabulous. It's just that you have to then make midi settings across midi channels and surface control mode to get the workflow right. It's a bit of a hassle and doesn't always work exactly as you like. The standalone solution would be a touch better and lighter on the operating system.
If Pianoteq offered a synth, this would be phenomenal on iPad mini or iPhone for on the go music with a simple audio interface and controller.
“If Pianoteq offered a synth”, everyone would ask for another one, or with this or that, or...! ! ;-)
“If Pianoteq offered a synth”, everyone would ask for another one, or with this or that, or...! ! ;-)
Hah absolutely
For anyone reading through and not sure about this, it's absolutely possible to make our own synth/pad kinds of sounds. That's one of the reasons I continue to use and genuinely love Pianoteq.
Occasionally this kind of idea comes around - and I like the idea of some kind of pack maybe? (like an all synth pack?? No new piano would likely be involved - just a pack of a certain number of presets which are things from plucks/pads/bass/raz/rumble/scrambled oscillations with some wild cross panning weirdness - along with some nice simple chord support type synth sounds)?
But I always feel bad to not include some insight into a bit of 'how to' - for anyone interested in forging their own synth-like instruments with Pianoteq.
There's a recently added 'Envelope' tool in 'Note FX' (and others in there do cool things with per-note modulation etc.) - by adding 3 layers together (different instruments or same with different edits to things), you can variously change the attack parameter for any layered instrument.. from typical direct fast hammer attack through to long slow fades. Don't forget, you also get FX and reverbs for each layer too, so you can for example, put some kind of dry 'bell' sound in, but give that delay (try adding 3 delays together with different timings - using maths or feel).. then with other layers add a cathedral reverb with synth-like slow attack and extra things like heavy compressor so it flattens out (esp. in bass, like a nice rich meaty bass.. but mix it low % with all that reverb), and maybe the other layer could be like strings.
That's just one of infinite basic concepts - I make many synth-like sounds by just thinking "I'll do kind of that same type of thing again... but this time, I'll use the Toy Piano in the middle, with an extra shortened plucky Harp panned somewhat left (using its mics, just drop the right side level in the mic mixer per layer) with a Church Bell on the right maybe, each of these layers with a different set of FX - maybe chorus on the bell, flanger on the harp, why not a phaser on the toy piano too" - drenching in some way different reverbs for each, so they blend in a fascinating way).. apart from some of your layers being set narrower/wider (mic section's 'Stereo Width' slider.. each layer will have all mic choices per layer so you can really make interesting choices about where to place them - it's crazy how you will never run out of ideas once you pounce on this kind of stuff.
Here's a lazy person's guide to making a 'rando' 3 layer synth type of multi-instrument...
Place your choice of 3 instruments into 3 layers (some human input required).
Next, with layer 1 selected in the 'Layer' panel, on the main interface click the dice icon (it randomizes the whole instrument - you can of course edit further from there - iirc the FX aren't randomized - and you could 'freeze' certain things you don't want to be randomized, so you can keep something like hammer hardness, or 40 plus other things set in cement or whatever you find you like to do as you go).
Next, repeat for instruments on layers 2 and 3
There's really so much more possible with what's included just with Pianoteq and initial piano packs.. just a few clicks under the hood.
Making your own sounds doesn't have to take ages - and you can get pretty fast at getting closer to your initial goals as you learn what the sum of the parts are capable of.
I guess last thing I should add, is that in a DAW you could have multiple Pianoteq instances (all playing at the same time) each with layered stacks of synth-like presets loaded.. I run out of CPU and have to bounce some instrument parts to audio if I want to keep adding to that kind of thing. But always like travelling in a personal spacecraft across uncharted moons.
"in a DAW you could have multiple Pianoteq instances (all playing at the same time)" yes, but in a DAW, you have access to any virtual synthesizer... It's the stand-alone version that's important.
I brought this up a while ago and out came the pitchforks.
I know we can slap another track on when using with Daw, but having access to a simple synth/strx pad for live use or quick inspired composing would be most welcome. I use mostly hardware live, but when using my Mainstage rig (with PT8) the less additional plugins the better.
C
what about a global ADSR envelope?
so we could turn Pianoteq into a pad synth, for example?
But I always feel bad to not include some insight into a bit of 'how to' - for anyone interested in forging their own synth-like instruments with Pianoteq.
I've done things like that and they come out not bad, but with a missing thing: even with the most extreme editing of soundboard parameter, the decay is always there and one cannot make a sound which lasts for arbitrarily long. Do you have a workaround for that?
@dv - Good question btw re 'making notes more synth-like'.. (I hope this is enjoyable to cruise through - I know I post lots of text - but it's my way I suppose)..
(also @moontan - I agree a full envelope tool in addition to attack envelope would be something I'd like to support, if doable!)
Fun to return to this thread and idea.. I've been loving some Pianoteq piano lately, so have given time to thinking more about this today - hope to drop some easy to digest info to help anyone interested..
Personally speaking, the idea of making an early or even a 1980s synth sound (basic sine/saw waves etc.) is probably not the most happy way to use Pianoteq.. it's likely to get you to more 'overall sound design' type synth outcomes.. I guess more like Brian Eno and/or Vangelis than early Kraftwerk might be a good-ish way to express what I mean, hope that makes sense. Pianoteq allows me so much more freedom over larger soundscapes.
I'm posting here an example of a custom preset I've evolved for a while..
It's a pad-like sound with 3 layers - I like it as it is, and arguably I wouldn't desire to put all things through a DAW setup - in stand-alone mode, this sounds like this.. can go from sort of dry-ish to sort of wet-ish depending on how dynamic the key strikes are etc.. and of course holding down sustain pedal etc. accounts for a lot of nice treacle tones - and this preset is just one of an infinite set of possibilities. You can edit this kind of thing to be more like a typical lead synth or even softer and so on. The way the sounds meld together (and they way they don't at times) is part of the dynamic thing I like with expressive synths.. and you could lower the 'drone' amount (or its EQ), or raise the hot spice (Amped layers etc.)... maybe hook up a pedal input for things like "Wah" (via MIDI editor.. I like to make a pedal control amount of delay mixed in for example.. so play dry-ish, then foot down for a chorus type deal), edit any layer to be transposed for harmonies or octaves etc. - infinite really.
The same file, but via a DAW with various FX which juices it up, running it a bit hotter (a modelled echo machine of a lovely old piece of nice hardware, 2 chambers, 3 tape machines incl. a master tape type, and a limiter. It is louder, but not to say that makes it better.. it's just levelled at a higher level while in the DAW, it could be output quieter - but I thought, why not leave it with a hot setting.. so I guess I did [listens again] - indeeed.).
A synth-like preset example via DAW
That isn't to show 'the best thing yet' or anything.. just to give some context to the fact that, any instrument from pianos to synths or other, can go in a million new ways beyond the presets you make. In this case, it's just kind of given gloss of a sort, to make it set into a larger mix (if more instruments were to be added, if a complete piece were to be made from this.. or an edit of it). Likely if it was going into a complex mix, it might be tamed instead of heated up.. this is just one variant of infinite possibilities really - I'm including this to kind of encourage all who might be inclined to try out some DAWs. Stand-alone is excellent already.. and it's not an insult to suggest using a DAW.. there are more reasons for it than just this example - and again, just wanting to brush away any fears about that kind of thing.
Here's a second older example with more church bell (maybe if Pianoteq lacks an instrument.. it could be cow bell! heh!). This file has some 'noise' blanketed on it made whilst harming it digitally by mixing out to MP3, then importing it back into a DAW to be exported again IIRC. I don't recall any FX other than what's in Pianoteq when making it. Sometimes, the 'patina' of a recording style (esp. synths in ye olden days went onto tape - and other related topics like that can help make your synth sounds more, kind of authentic to an era. This wasn't an attempt really at an era but ended up like this because I guess I thought "done".. but it could have been cleaner, or more messed up with some extra 'dust' or other FX too. Just adding that to strengthen my usual case that a DAW is not to be feared, but instead thought of as a companion.. esp. in relation to creating synth 'recordings', which could mean anything from simple and clean output, to really complex FX and so on. It can be fun with any instruments to try "I wonder how this might sound if I send it through a chamber plugin, like the above file and so on. The number of things you could do to any track is what makes multi-tracking so fascinating, not just for traditional arrangements, but into the post modern too. No rules, lots of rules - but no rules.)
A synth-like preset example B with more church bell!
For sure if anyone is using Pianoteq to get some more kinds of early or 1980s synth type tones/sounds, I'd love to check that out It could be possible to get more elemental with this kind of thing I think.. but I do tend to end up making luscious pads more than old synth tones. I guess, to put more detail on this area, I'd consider it probably not too interesting to try to make Pianoteq generate 'very standard' waves.. Pianoteq is most interesting, because it's more complex than old synths, I feel.
Back to the interesting question about how to make Pianoteq respond more synth-like to the touch..
There are various ways to iron the dynamics and artificially prolong notes. Its probably best for most situations to utilize them in tandem, rather than hammering on one thing (like compressor).
To hook up a long note (like an envelope), among other things you can use some/all/a little of each of these tricks:
a\
"mallet bounce" (it has its own 'attack' filter.. so you can shave off transients there - so the hammers/transients may not be heard at all).
b\
You can alter "Impedance" so it is more 'pushed' (rather than tailing off normally in volume)..
c\
you can use 'delay!' (or 3 echos.. on 3 layers for a total of 9 echos! which can be made stereo left/right by editing the layer in the mic section). Don't forget that a nice echo will also extend the notes subtly or in a pronounced way.. also since it's echoing the already truncated attack (attack envelope in note FX), you can just do something pretty simple with it if you want.. or adjust the echo's timing, so it 'bounces' the echo at a certain time 'after' you play a note.. like 'filling in gaps'. Make each layer stereo panned.. so for example, layer 2 panned left somewhat will 'echo' on that side.. and layer 3 if panned the opposite way, with echo there timed to be on the off-beat.. congrats, you just made a nice basic ping-pong effect. (people can get very geeky with delay timings, maths and charts for 'beats per minute' match-ups have been online since the beginning of the web.. in essence, you can make some echos quarter notes, some eighth etc.. mix and match together things which give the piece a lift. Make the delays long-ish.. or try some very fast "tap" delay types.. a lot of early 1980s synth vibes are because of a kind of way of using 'widened' mono, or chorus/flange/phase with some micor tap delay etc.. kind of like a 1950s variation on 'slap echo', like I guess a lot of people will know what I mean by saying.. the famous Elvis vocal production effect. All kinds of things work with synth, because, it's not real!! - but Pianoteq gives a wonderful organic sense that.. maybe it is heh!)
d\
try 'direct duration'.. move that slider so it's not so dynamically fading out earlier than you want.
e\
Compression... don't be scared.. one of the things which may set piano and synths apart, is the way that synth sounds may work really well with lots of compression.. and the Pianoteq compressor is actually really sweet for squashing things.. balance things like 'threshold' and put the 'mix' up above 50% - be bold... with synths, it's not so much about being subtle and respectful of the realism involved in a nice piano sound.. in this case, more about cranking things so that there's enough dynamics to be a joy to play.. but flat enough to feel like, if you shut your eyes, you could be playing a synth rather than a piano (I know it seems dumb to say that.. but there's a lot of benefit from seeking reference audio.. getting used to it.. maybe playing some synths/plugins etc.. and try NOT to think about Pianoteq being a lovely piano software instrument heh.. I know, personally, I can something try to respect the piano in the process of 'breaking it'.. and you can kind of get beyond that.. a little thing maybe - but I found it worth some focus).
f\
about 20 other controls (or maybe 40) each could be altered a little for any kind of flavor or hint of some otherworldly sound - on any of the three layers.. remember you can get some good results using 'Amp' (try it on 1 layer.. not too grungy.. but mix at 4% to 50 or something.. get a feel for how it makes your sounds 'flatter' 'dull' or 'bright' but with a shade of harmonic distortion, it can make a more piano-like sound seem more artificial.. but it's a real-world recording thing.. and Pianoteq's 'Amp' is a thing I do like to use to get a kind of nice 'big old mixing desk' type of vibe.. subtle amounts of drive, not mixed up too much, a balance of its own bass/mid/treble tones... you can make it crunchy or like a nice old soft overdrive by pushing its bass slider up.. careful though... you really can get miles ouf it, or run ashore if going too heavy with this.. OR if you're not after a 'pad'.. you can get some zing like a lead sound with it.. I gues nothing is incorrect if you can use it in a track no matter if subtle or baked harder).
g\
make strings longer if you want less 'inharmonic' content.
h\
Don't forget.. playing synths can be vastly different to playing a piano in a refined way. You can play like a piano - but certainly, you could benefit from trying out just touching notes and letting off without worry over holding down notes... or the opposite. Things which could sound wrong for a professional pianist on a nice piano, might be how you need to play to make a synth do that thing you want it to do. (like holding fingers down.. a lot more than you might on a modern grand piano).
i\
Play 'Bloom' games with the energy sliders on the main interface... by altering how much bloom develops, played off against how much you cut off the transient attack (in note fx) you can gain some very synth-like note beginnings.
j\
Should add, after you have a pleasing result happening with a Pianoteq preset, for sure this may only be a starting point for mixing it in within a full piece of music (or even if you just enjoy loading in a drum part to play along with).. in a DAW you can take any measures beyond the instrument itself.. that may include countless other extra reverb tricks or ducking and weaving with other parts etc. and like editing presets, it just takes time doing these things after learning some basics.
k\
Should note.. you can turn down all piano noises (pedal, damper etc. in "Action" panel).. it can also be really delicious to overdo some noises, or just have some on some layers subtly in there making 'woosh' and other sounds... esp. drenched with reverb, they can create some rich atmosphere.
l\
A last note before zooming off.. about 'recording' synths etc.. it can be a good thing to make things tight, such as 'Condition slider' near zero.. but with layers.. try moving condition slider towards the middle... a lot of synth sounds are indeed about that kind of imperfection too.
There are more things I'm sure overlooked but..
Hope that's some enjoyable extra detail to inspire some cool preset experimentation. I do get it though, all this could seem frustrating particularly at first.. but with time, these things all become more part of your kit as a musician (I've been zooming through synth land for four plus long decades and it always inspires something new, musically - and if you love making your own synth-like sounds with Pianoteq, you can take to it like a duck to water too, yet even ducks have to take time on learning to swim.. and fly!) - I believe in you, you can do it!!
[again sorry for a long read!]
the decay is always there and one cannot make a sound which lasts for arbitrarily long. Do you have a workaround for that?
Try the Bowed preset for the Steinway D New York, it will hold the sound arbitrarily long
dv wrote:the decay is always there and one cannot make a sound which lasts for arbitrarily long. Do you have a workaround for that?
Try the Bowed preset for the Steinway D New York, it will hold the sound arbitrarily long
Wow, that's a fantastic "silent" (I mean not announced) change that happened in v8 (I don't think it existed in v7) and the perfect starting point for this sort of sound. Super excited to try it out, thanks for letting as know, Marc
Super excited to try it out, thanks for letting as know, Marc
My pleasure! I had planned on exploring it for a synth preset, but haven't gotten around to it yet. I'll be eager to see what you do with it!