Topic: Anyone else missing more nice 'synth-like' features in Pianoteq? Ideas

Someone in the forum has recently pointed out the fact that Pianoteq's synth engine is also suitable for creating cowbell-like percussive sounds, and so that more 'inusual' instrument packs could be designed as well. Regardless of what specific sound one might be looking for, I think this software is generally underrated in terms of 'synth-like' classic sound parameters exploration.
But, at the same time, everybody can see how Modartt has been doing incredible stuff to improve things exactly towards multiple directions. I'm talking about new panels / sections like "External Audio Input", "Morphing", "Note Effects", etc.
In the latter, interestingly, the user can spot the 'classic' stuff. For example, the "Attack Envelope" parameter is a 'synth-like' one if you will, potentially leading to unrecognizable timbres (and fun). For all intents and purposes, I'm not necessarily looking at ASDR subtractive-synthesis parameters when dealing with physical modelling either. However, it turns out that this new "Note Effects" section is inspiring nonetheless. Here are two or three related ideas.

1) I wonder if the "Modulation" wave shape (in "Note Effects") could be fed by external audio input or by Pianoteq instrument audio signal itself. I mean, any way that we maybe 'escape' the classic synth-like features, so that we are not tied to elementary wave shapes (sine, pulse, ramp, etc).

2) On a similar take, I would like to see a monophonic / polyphonic portamento feature added. This way, the user is not stuck with just notes and "Note Effects" thereof but is enabled to explore the tonal continuum regardless of the sound palette (not to mention that this multiple pitch-shifting would also gladly fit altogether with all the microtonal and MTS-ESP options that Modartt got us used to).

3) Another meaningful aspect as a sound design tool would then be, if ever possible, a 'morphable' rather than 'static' Spectrum Profile, strictly regarding the partial amplitudes in the per note view. By 'morphable' I simply mean that the change might also occur not just at new note only, but continuously if chosen so, like it is available already in the section named "External tuning (MIDI, MTS-ESP)".
This may or may note require some new way to dynamically modulate the partial amplitudes per note, which can be another whole different topic. For the time being, I believe that Modartt is technically able to provide spectral morphing without the need to morph entire instrument-presets and therefore with more cpu-friendly involvement. This is all based on speculations though, and I hope we see all sorts of improvement not only in the Pro version.

I usually drive the overall "Spectrum Profile" through the "Harmonic" or "Comb" drawing modes by clearing all the notes and by editing just the lowest note [by the way: mode always resets to "Simple" if exiting the section, which, is a bit uncomfortable - hopefully gets fixed to last one selected]. Like I said, the change of the 'timbre' can't be continuous but takes place at new notes only, as of yet. I know that a real piano doesn't act in any of this way I'm imagining and that's the point. Pianoteq is a virtual piano software, right?

Any more ideas? Do you think you would enjoy this kind of features or is too much to ask for? Feel free to share your thoughts in any form and according to the online community rules. Thanks

Re: Anyone else missing more nice 'synth-like' features in Pianoteq? Ideas

The ways we can edit Pianoteq are amazing. For pure non-piano synths, there have been some new products just making modelled sound possible without a piano focus. Having seen many, I'm still of the strong opinion that Pianoteq has an edge - even if it may mean that someone serious about sound design may have to dig into a piano to get to the syth sounds.. but I'm underwhelmed so far by other modelled synthesis products and will I guess remain hopeful that Pianoteq continues to do what they find is fun, as much as continue bringing beautiful pianos to their wonderful library.

Thinking through these fine ideas.. makes me feel like I've been playing piano normally-ish for so long that I've lost track of a bunch of tricky things I used to do with MIDI setup... maybe others who've been under the hood doing creative MIDI setups might know for sure for some of the below.. but just now here's some thoughts thanks to your post;

Regarding #1
Each note press begins a wave (unlock so modulation is per note).. or it can be set to just one synchronous sine pulse - but it can be really organic if set it's mix to just 1 or 2% for vibrato and/or tremolo.. I like also that we can un-hitch vib from trem (relative phase adjustment).. also in case some users missed the feature, click and drag on the sine wave to make its shape change in all kinds of ways to square, triangle etc.

but I love the idea of adding something like 'velocity' based 'depth' assignment or other things using other elements.. note-off (I haven't checked if that's already possible.. to hook up 'note-off' to begin a new pulse point or maybe for it to reverse vibrato 'offset'.. stuff like that would be interesting to try, even if just reversing offset for vibrato.. just the idea of being able to play a note, have it begin an upward then downward progression, and for letting go to decide to re-trigger either way etc.. maybe niche and maybe it's not something I'd end up doing a lot with though).

Re #2
Not sure if I'm thinking of the same kind of thing... but using layers, I like the idea of allowing pressure (or velocity) to alter pitch (micro or more) for any instrument in the stack. (something like above middle velocity, pitch progressively moves layer 2 up, layer 3 down by set amounts.. limited or unlatched)

Re #3
I've speculated at times about what could be possible with the ability to snap-shot spectral data and morph it in real time (somewhere else on the forum).. but never really dug much more into that since.. I think this is an area with a lot of potential - but.. perhaps it's something the engine does, which could be applicable to other preset makers for example, to license for creating vivid real-time morphing spectral resonances or reverbs/room/spatial etc. tools.. but I do know Pianoteq aims most resources at pianos (which is good) - but, I've often really loved taking Pianoteq output into other spectral editing tools to create sound designs with pretty vast differences.. there IS something really good (and unique is the killer feature with this) to work from, with Pianoteq as a source for 'synthing' up pad-like and other-worldly worlds of sound. There are a lot of synths on the market, incl. some re-makes of classics and all kinds of variants of wavetable plus FM etc.. but this is just one old person's take on it.. but as much as I love the early synths I grew into, and I love some remakes of their actual behaviours etc... still nothing makes me 'naturally' lean in to wonder "What IS that sound" when I encounter something I made with Pianoteq and a series of processes (secret sauces!).

martinoduma wrote:

I know that a real piano doesn't act in any of this way I'm imagining and that's the point.

this is a thing which makes Pianoteq so impressive to me really. The way Philippe began working on it from the beginning, was with that exact thing in mind (some of the early Youtubes exist where he talks through his reasoning and so on). But for sure do like that creative force, the idea that, not only can it aim to be a wonderful digital piano solution, but to also allow parameters to break with normative physics too, allowing creativity like no other piano plugin imho. (some other piano software give nice tools, some nice features etc.. but Pianoteq allows sound design beyond what is piano).


As for more new ideas, I've expressed a lot of ideas, given examples etc over the years and encourage others to do so also.. but for sure Modartt have a lot of work going on - and I do know that, over time, they're seriously delivering advances to make 'realistic piano' improved - probably worth stating that, as I know some can be annoyed if focus goes to things outside of realism for too long (and vice versa too.. not that there's an ideal balance or something - but just adding that I believe Modartt does what they can to make sure all users get the maximum from their work, and am pretty satisfied that working on one thing will usually have positive impacts on the work needed on other aspects - from the start the solid engineering makes it possible imho).

Good post - I'm always interested in interesting ideas

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: Anyone else missing more nice 'synth-like' features in Pianoteq? Ideas

Qexl, thank you for your constant support and spot-on response. For all that I don't always find time to get back, I always appreciate and I'm grateful for the time you take to do such a service to this community. You might consider yourself as an old person but let me say, it doesn't look so. Your reasoning is refreshing. Yes, it is crystal clear by now that any sound coming from Pianoteq has some kind of magic which can't be denied. I totally agree and you did good at stating what has to be stated.

The piano can make you cry out of joy. Sometimes, I cannot believe the level of perfection that has been reached. On the other side, there is another reality that I find interesting as well. You will always find a bunch of people concerned with this and that, about how 'the piano' doesn't sound realistic (the highs are piercing, the mids are muddy, the touch feels bla bla bla). Or even more, which speakers do justice to Pianoteq, and all the rest. Ok, I get it, all this must be true to some extent, right? But, at the end of the day, it is simply impossible to please every single listener (I also doubt they would say what they say if hearing Pianoteq in a mix or in blind test conditions). The company has a lot to do - let's not forget they also launched an iPad version - and yet I'm confident they will do the impossible to satisfy every single customer no matter what.

I'm still learning 1%. A simple piano preset in Pianoteq can change dramatically its own quality even with the slightest tweak of microphone / binaural configurations, with parameters like stereo width and sound speed. So whenever I say 'sound design', beware! Because I don't know what I'm saying. All I know is, if the sound source already sounds good and comes directly from one device only as well, then adding more audio processing literally makes no sense. Most of the time, the operation will destroy the magic and compose 'noise'. Same goes with putting reverb like salt. There is no ultimate solution. Even adding another valuable sound material, a new voice or whatever, is often enough to ruin a moment of magic... and that moment in music should remind the listener of eternity, not clichés.

Now I don't want to go off-topic with philosophy, let alone personal taste, and I also live by the hope, as you aptly said, that "Pianoteq continues to do what they find is fun, as much as continue bringing beautiful pianos to their wonderful library". So what I had in mind with the classic 'synth-like' question basically reduces itself to the paradox of not embracing 'synth-like' trends and rebuking 'new-age spectralism' such as modal synthesis at the same time (as there are many plug-ins trending in this field).

I don't know if I'm explaining it correctly, it's nothing revolutionary really. I just expect little ideas (such as hooking some behavior of the Note Effects to 'note-offs' as you suggested) to continue to be hidden gems, so to say. In short, details which could make the difference rather than details onto which whole instrument packs get designed. Then anyone can design anything with and without 'morphing'. That's it. I'm no audio technician either, I like noises, feedbacks and the freedom in art. Only I feel like I belong to a niche that secretly refuses to comply to loudness war standards. You know, modal synthesis can become just as loud and standard and I don't care a brass farting. People decide if what's on air today is noise or something else. Sure thing is making music by digital means has actually become so funny and easily accessible, that apparently only people with a certain experience (old?) understand all the possibilities behind the technology...  you name it, 'secret sauces', and to each their own ;)

So yeah, this Modartt product is so impressive that I think other paid softwares are not worth to be mentioned in the discussion. Different would be if we were speaking about free formulas for physical modelling or open-source projects like Csound (see the outstanding physical modelling developed by Iain McCurdy), but this is also not the case. Back to Pianoteq, you provided an excellent description regarding the current "Note Effects" possibilities and the hypothetical future ones. That was a fundamental piece of information I forgot to give to the readers (to be honest I even forgot that the wave shapes could be changed before making the post).

Regarding #2, maybe I used a wrong expression instead of 'glissati' or 'glissandi'?
By monophonic / polyphonic portamento, I intend that the note(s) glide(s) within a certain time span and depending on some curve (otherwise linearly). The monophonic version is so well-known, that is found on most monophonic synths (analog or digital) and step sequencers, but the polyphonic is not so common. I own a couple of hardware synths that have implemented the latter, Waldorf Kyra and Korg Prologue. It sounds different when those two are layered, but the overall effect of their respective polyphonic portamento is very exciting (especially when you add, on top of it, the fact that both synths support 1 cent precision scale modifications).

Anyway, the velocity or rather 'pressure' on the key altering the pitch like you said is also a good idea! It happens to a certain degree with real pipe organs (I'm ignoring if Organteq simulates this). This is used as a compositional technique in the Harmonies etudes of Ligeti. But 'polyphonic portamento' is not necessarily so subtle and hard to control as each note can glide independently huge distances as well, from the lowest to the highest register (or the other way around).

So monophonic glide I would say expresses itself as a classic 'synth-like' function but polyphonic portamento is not that avant-garde really (since there are examples of modern synths exhibiting it already, like I said, in slightly different fashions). It resembles to 'pitch-shifting' - only it's not global, but per note. It also resembles to 'dynamic microtuning' in the perceptual sense - but the scale doesn't change. Definitions are always tricky, sorry. However, any polyphonic portamento/glide is 'a posteriori' to any temperament application, and, by definition, it must tend to - and eventually arrive at - the same scale, because polyphonic portamento doesn't change the scale steps at all. All it does is filling the voids between the same scale step frequencies.

If the time span during which the voids are filled is not too short nor too long, the result then will be a bit like what 'meend' is to Indian music. The complexity brought by the fact that there are not just two notes of a single melodic line but potentially different chords and voicings, can be faced in many ways by setting some 'note priority' (a story which Modartt can figure out in the blink of an eye).

To be fair and to conclude, I'm aware that polyphony, and polyphonic gliding voices thereof, are a complete heresy with respects to Indian classical music, and I can't hide the fact that 'progressions' can sound messy when they are not pretty handled. I just think that, at least from a theoretical point of view, different new proposals are to be shared also as far as the "Spectrum Profile" per-note exploration can go with Pianoteq.

Will we be the only two persons in the world to drop a few lines thinking about it once again? Bizarre!

Re: Anyone else missing more nice 'synth-like' features in Pianoteq? Ideas

Heh.. Knock knock.. Oh hey.. Come on in old horse Glad you're here!

Ah, yeah I get what you mean now (Glissandi) - absolutely a screamer of an idea imho

I guess since the 'note fx' section can distinguish between per note values, or block form so to speak, it could be a firm possibility that fleshing out that section in some way could lead to being able to set for glissando ?? .. I'm giving this idea a +++++ out of +++++

For the past, when I felt the desire I would go into MIDI settings, and set pedals to trigger up/down transpose values. (with 3 pedals, the left one for up, middle for down, right one left for default sust). That's a kind of useful but block-head-level kind of tweak - but nice to play and occasion a shift in key that way.. the amounts can be small or large jumps in pitch - but indeed, adding a gliss feature into Note FX section gets interesting.

[There have been some plugins to do poly gliss for a long time - one kind of recent escapes my mind - and I genuinely failed to find it so it could sadly no longer be around.. I'll try to remember to post back with it if I ever do find it... in case it works with Pianoteq.. I guess some of those things will due to its inherent support of MPE etc. ?? - oh, some tools allow custom coding simple MPE functions.. I used to love using Max for Abletone Live for some basic stuff altering some behaviours to event triggered things..

Mostly just as a style or aesthetic thing, I will tend to focus more on processing many niche FX things in post (audio), rather than putting as much focus on the playing of the tweaked 'events' necessarily - but the best of both worlds is always the most glorious way.

If I were beginning in music again (and not so kind of focussing in my own take with piano playing after earlier synths/guitar) I would have jumped on something like Roly Seaboard (iirc that's the spelling? - I think I don't have time to check online - but look below.. my time is taken up by typing - I am unable to stop.. help me SOS blink blink blink... blinkblinkblink... blink blink blink


btw - Thank you sincerely, and I do mean it when I say that, for enjoying thinking out loud (in text) - and likewise - I absolutely respect and enjoy your writing - and look forward to more - and hope for anyone who likes talking ideas through can feel happy joining in too. I'm pretty idea focussed - but genuinely love a lot of the many people around here too - and there are so many here who've been such a joy to have met and tossed ideas around like being in some kind of textual.. musical karate salad bar or something heh. Not pushing it to say, hardly a day passes where I don't fondly remember a bunch of friends here, the many extraordinary ideas in abundance and the pretty awesome way Modartt does things

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors