Topic by Yoyo

  • Avatar
  • Yoyo
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 25-06-2024
  • Posts: 4

Topic: Pianoteq “keyclick” problem

Hi all pros…
Got the pianoteq 8 on my ipad.
Connected to ipad usbc, with a bar that has usb from midi out from my nord piano 5 88 piano, aux out to my mixer-headphones, ect.
All works fine and beautiful.
But…
Noticed (when with attention, with headphones, ), that each key, when pressed slow enough so no (piano) sound is triggered, creates a small “key click” audio sound as like a short click noise is present and amplified when the contact is made, no connection to the piano sound at all.
Furthermore, when pressing the sustain pedal, which is progressive, and yes, you can change if or how much of the “piano’s pedal sound and resonance” will be , but it has 4-5 contacts, each one makes the same “key click” , 4-5 of them, as you press the pedal more and more, not connected to the sound of the “real” pedal and resonance.
The other pedals, (which are only on-off, also makes 1 click pressing them. …again, these clicks are not the  part of the sound of the/a piano.
It’s something wrong…
Playing the nord itself, not connected to pianoteq/ipad, same keyboard and pedals, has no key click and all fine. As should be.
Those who are aware of the “Hammond” B3 organ key click issue which became desired…know what key click means….
But not on pianos…
Again, when playing loud and through monitors, the wrong key clicks are there.., but not very noticeable, until you hear it with headphones, and until you slowly press the sustain pedal.,.
Would appreciate to know if its on my setup?
Is it the nord ? (Not when on itself…)
Is it the connection and should i change something?
Is it a bug in the app?
Can someone patiently check as described?
Hope for a solution and help,,
Thank you very much,
With respect,
A.M.

Reply by brundlefly

  • Avatar
  • brundlefly
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 31-03-2022
  • Posts: 221

Re: Pianoteq “keyclick” problem

What platform is Pianoteq running on and what are using for an audio interface? I suspect these noises might be emanating from your graphics card made audible by RF interference with your audio interface and related to the animation of keys and pedal in the Pianoteq UI. One reason I suspect this is that the animation of the pedal in the UI has 5 positions (4 changes from top to bottom), corresponding to your description of the sounds.

On my system there is no noise at key down with a low-velocity/silent note, only the relase noise at key up, the loudness of which is related to Note Off velocity and the duration of the note (the release of stacatto notes is louder, decreasing progressively the longer the note is held). I don't know if your Nord sends variable release velocity, but I think the default in Pianoteq is to send the maximum release velocity = 127 regardless of input unless the 'curve' is deliberately made proportional. But, again, you'll only hear this at key up, and the sound is more complex than just a 'click'.

Pedal noises are proportional to how much and how fast the pedal position messages are changing. A truly continuous pedal output changing slowly is almost inaudible.

One way or another, I'm pretty sure you're hearing some artifact of the UI animation.

EDIT: I see you mentioned using an iPad; do you have another device you can try?

Last edited by brundlefly (25-06-2024 19:10)

Reply by Yoyo

  • Avatar
  • Yoyo
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 25-06-2024
  • Posts: 4

Re: Pianoteq “keyclick” problem

brundlefly wrote:

What platform is Pianoteq running on and what are using for an audio interface? I suspect these noises might be emanating from your graphics card made audible by RF interference with your audio interface and related to the animation of keys and pedal in the Pianoteq UI. One reason I suspect this is that the animation of the pedal in the UI has 5 positions (4 changes from top to bottom), corresponding to your description of the sounds.

On my system there is no noise at key down with a low-velocity/silent note, only the relase noise at key up, the loudness of which is related to Note Off velocity and the duration of the note (the release of stacatto notes is louder, decreasing progressively the longer the note is held). I don't know if your Nord sends variable release velocity, but I think the default in Pianoteq is to send the maximum release velocity = 127 regardless of input unless the 'curve' is deliberately made proportional. But, again, you'll only hear this at key up, and the sound is more complex than just a 'click'.

Pedal noises are proportional to how much and how fast the pedal position messages are changing. A truly continuous pedal output changing slowly is almost inaudible.

One way or another, I'm pretty sure you're hearing some artifact of the UI animation.

EDIT: I see you mentioned using an iPad; do you have another device you can try?

Thank you so much for your answer.
I use the pianoteq app. On ipad pro and ipad mini, What i described happens with both, the same.
A little box gets the midi out from the nord by a midi (5 pin) cable, to midi in on it.
From this box, a usb cable to a small “Splitter” which is connected to the ipad’s (only) connection- it’s usb c socket, and gets that usb for the midi input from the nord, has a regular “aux” little stereo socket from which i go out to my analog mixer left and right pl plugs, for monitoring/headphones.
As long as this stereo channel’s  input volume on the mixer is at “half”, “middle”, (the “normal” volume usually needed for my setup to be in the fine range for my ears, room, monitors ( nord and yamaha), everything is fine.
Because the volume output from the pianoteq ipad app is not  very high, i dialed  some more gain volume on this mixer channel. And then i Have it….
I am sure these clicks are “unwanted”, meaning not ment to be heard, and are for sure the clicks that are “electronically/ electrically” audible “bug” of the contct of each key of the keyboard, the 4-5 contacts in the sustain pedal, and the one in each other pedals.
The clicks are not related to the musical sound, and not to velocity of key on or release, nor to speed on the pedal. They are just “there”, same click, when volume is high, all sounds the same, and all are present when the contacts are made, with no connection to any of the musical sound and effects, not from the playing keyboard, not from the pedals, but only when their contacts are “engaged” , or each one on the sustain pedal when pressed and reached.
But again, in “normal” volume, no problem, not heard.
As if from a certain point of volume gain on the mixer, these contact clicks are being “amplified” too much, or “accented” too much.

Reply by brundlefly

  • Avatar
  • brundlefly
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 31-03-2022
  • Posts: 221

Re: Pianoteq “keyclick” problem

Based on that description, I would say the two most likely suspects are a ground loop between the Nord and the powered mixer (and maybe also involving the iPad if it's always plugged in), or the MIDI-USB cable. Those inexpensive cables typically don't have the buffering or opto-isolation you would find in a full-fledged MIDI interface. Others might better comment on what they are using to get MIDI into an iPad with good results.

If the issue persists with headphone plugged directly into the iPad, taking the mixer out of the equation, then I would recommend you try getting your hands on a "real" MIDI interface.

Reply by Yoyo

  • Avatar
  • Yoyo
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 25-06-2024
  • Posts: 4

Re: Pianoteq “keyclick” problem

brundlefly wrote:

Based on that description, I would say the two most likely suspects are a ground loop between the Nord and the powered mixer (and maybe also involving the iPad if it's always plugged in), or the MIDI-USB cable. Those inexpensive cables typically don't have the buffering or opto-isolation you would find in a full-fledged MIDI interface. Others might better comment on what they are using to get MIDI into an iPad with good results.

If the issue persists with headphone plugged directly into the iPad, taking the mixer out of the equation, then I would recommend you try getting your hands on a "real" MIDI interface.

Reply by Yoyo

  • Avatar
  • Yoyo
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 25-06-2024
  • Posts: 4

Re: Pianoteq “keyclick” problem

Yoyo wrote:
brundlefly wrote:

Based on that description, I would say the two most likely suspects are a ground loop between the Nord and the powered mixer (and maybe also involving the iPad if it's always plugged in), or the MIDI-USB cable. Those inexpensive cables typically don't have the buffering or opto-isolation you would find in a full-fledged MIDI interface. Others might better comment on what they are using to get MIDI into an iPad with good results.

If the issue persists with headphone plugged directly into the iPad, taking the mixer out of the equation, then I would recommend you try getting your hands on a "real" MIDI interface.

Thank you !
I replaced all cables connecting the nord-ipad-mixer, midi and audio,  and all is good !!!!
So the cause must have been as you advised!
Sound is perfect, clean and no clicks at all. in any volume, problem solved !
Really appreciate your attention, attitude and professional advice.