Topic by dklein

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Topic: New Bosendorfer and microphone settings for "Player" headphone soundst

The new Bosendorfer sounds fantastic.

While I have put my piano soundboard transducer project on hold for some time, I have gone back to using my Beyerdynamic DT880 partially open headphones. 

I am looking for guidance on how to make the Player piano preset sound even more as if the music is eminating from just a few feet in front of me, and not from the center of my skull, as is oft the case when listening to music via headphones.

Philippe and the crew have done a great job with adding the two ambient microphones to the keyboard region microphones for the Player preset, yet I am looking for other techniques to make the piano sound as if it is playing in front of me.

Any directional sound psychoacoustic professionals out there to lead us further along this path?

- David

Reply by Pianoteqenthusiast

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Re: New Bosendorfer and microphone settings for "Player" headphone soundst

dklein wrote:

The new Bosendorfer sounds fantastic.

While I have put my piano soundboard transducer project on hold for some time, I have gone back to using my Beyerdynamic DT880 partially open headphones. 

I am looking for guidance on how to make the Player piano preset sound even more as if the music is eminating from just a few feet in front of me, and not from the center of my skull, as is oft the case when listening to music via headphones.

Philippe and the crew have done a great job with adding the two ambient microphones to the keyboard region microphones for the Player preset, yet I am looking for other techniques to make the piano sound as if it is playing in front of me.

Any directional sound psychoacoustic professionals out there to lead us further along this path?

Hello dklein,

As you know I am not a psychoacoustic professional that can lead you further along your path…    but  ever since 2013 I have been an experimenter and now I wanted to try again. I think now the sound is not coming from the center of my skull. Attaching a link to ”the other side”:

Preset player with a little change, (the music is eminating from just a few feet, or a bit more, in front of me)

https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=11612

BTW, over the years I have started to change less and less on all presets because when I then compare, a preset is often better,  possibly can I do a small change.
And, your problem is a big problem. Different people like different headphones. How many have you tried? I wonder, why is it so hard to find right headphones? I think I have my seventh headphones now. Hearing a difference is not necessarily same as one being better. It might be very difficult to get a sound with headphones as listening to a real piano, and to get it exactly as you want.  And then we have this difference:
With headphones the sound is in our head, and headphones gives left sound channel sound only to left ear, and right sound channel sound only to right ear(unlike standing beside a real piano where the sound come to both ears, maybe not at the same time, and with  that rooms acustics, not at same time to both ears ). And people have different shape of heads and so on…
Headphones also can sound different in different ear canals, earflaps, and the size and shape of the head have effect on how headphones reproduce the sound(also interesting, in Ptq binaural mode you can increase the the size of the head).
Maybe in binaural recording, in the future, is the way to come closest to a sound like the one you want……
Maybe I got a bit off topic now but was thinking about these things and how they might help you. I just try to help. Listen to my ”try”  It is much about the way the sound goes before it is in the brain.

And, anyway, I dedicate this improvisation  to you dklein.

All the best,

Stig

Last edited by Pianoteqenthusiast (23-06-2024 21:14)

Reply by dklein

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Re: New Bosendorfer and microphone settings for "Player" headphone soundst

ha ha ha ha ha! Yes, indeed, the sound is in my head. Thank you for the thoughtful reply.

One thing that amazes me is the presentation of "spatial audio" as Apple does even with just simple earbuds. During demonstration sound effects, I can point in space to see things in front of me, above me, to the left of me, behind me, etc. as I understand, it has to do with really subtle changes to the equalization curve, as well as timing from left to right, but it's more than just timing.

- David

Reply by YvesTh

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Re: New Bosendorfer and microphone settings for "Player" headphone soundst

I think it's essentially the micro-movements of the head that create spacialization in normal listening, so the problem with headphones is that the whole piano moves with your head. Without a head tracker system, headphone spacialisation is very difficult.

https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=9602

Last edited by YvesTh (24-06-2024 07:02)

Reply by dklein

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Re: New Bosendorfer and microphone settings for "Player" headphone soundst

Interesting - yes, that's why virtual reality vision likely tempts me to sway left and right to experience the visual changes with micromovements.

Apple describes their "Spatial Audio" as applying "Directional Audio Filters" - this sounds to me like they might be the small equalization changes that clue our brains into things coming from above or below.

- David

Reply by sharpnine

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Re: New Bosendorfer and microphone settings for "Player" headphone soundst

Pianoteqenthusiast wrote:
dklein wrote:

The new Bosendorfer sounds fantastic.

While I have put my piano soundboard transducer project on hold for some time, I have gone back to using my Beyerdynamic DT880 partially open headphones. 

I am looking for guidance on how to make the Player piano preset sound even more as if the music is eminating from just a few feet in front of me, and not from the center of my skull, as is oft the case when listening to music via headphones.

Philippe and the crew have done a great job with adding the two ambient microphones to the keyboard region microphones for the Player preset, yet I am looking for other techniques to make the piano sound as if it is playing in front of me.

Any directional sound psychoacoustic professionals out there to lead us further along this path?

Hello dklein,

As you know I am not a psychoacoustic professional that can lead you further along your path…    but  ever since 2013 I have been an experimenter and now I wanted to try again. I think now the sound is not coming from the center of my skull. Attaching a link to ”the other side”:

Preset player with a little change, (the music is eminating from just a few feet, or a bit more, in front of me)

https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=11612

BTW, over the years I have started to change less and less on all presets because when I then compare, a preset is often better,  possibly can I do a small change.
And, your problem is a big problem. Different people like different headphones. How many have you tried? I wonder, why is it so hard to find right headphones? I think I have my seventh headphones now. Hearing a difference is not necessarily same as one being better. It might be very difficult to get a sound with headphones as listening to a real piano, and to get it exactly as you want.  And then we have this difference:
With headphones the sound is in our head, and headphones gives left sound channel sound only to left ear, and right sound channel sound only to right ear(unlike standing beside a real piano where the sound come to both ears, maybe not at the same time, and with  that rooms acustics, not at same time to both ears ). And people have different shape of heads and so on…
Headphones also can sound different in different ear canals, earflaps, and the size and shape of the head have effect on how headphones reproduce the sound(also interesting, in Ptq binaural mode you can increase the the size of the head).
Maybe in binaural recording, in the future, is the way to come closest to a sound like the one you want……
Maybe I got a bit off topic now but was thinking about these things and how they might help you. I just try to help. Listen to my ”try”  It is much about the way the sound goes before it is in the brain.

And, anyway, I dedicate this improvisation  to you dklein.

All the best,

Stig

Very good observations, Stig. I'd like to add that we "hear" with our whole bodies, as well. All our bones vibrate with the music. This is one reason headphones will never have quite the same effect as a real physical system, or a good system with speakers and natural room resonance. I once had occasion to play in a band performance, in which the audience were all deaf. They danced like crazy! They could feel the music.

Reply by Pianoteqenthusiast

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Re: New Bosendorfer and microphone settings for "Player" headphone soundst

sharpnine wrote:
Pianoteqenthusiast wrote:
dklein wrote:

The new Bosendorfer sounds fantastic.

While I have put my piano soundboard transducer project on hold for some time, I have gone back to using my Beyerdynamic DT880 partially open headphones. 

I am looking for guidance on how to make the Player piano preset sound even more as if the music is eminating from just a few feet in front of me, and not from the center of my skull, as is oft the case when listening to music via headphones.

Philippe and the crew have done a great job with adding the two ambient microphones to the keyboard region microphones for the Player preset, yet I am looking for other techniques to make the piano sound as if it is playing in front of me.

Any directional sound psychoacoustic professionals out there to lead us further along this path?

Hello dklein,

As you know I am not a psychoacoustic professional that can lead you further along your path…    but  ever since 2013 I have been an experimenter and now I wanted to try again. I think now the sound is not coming from the center of my skull. Attaching a link to ”the other side”:

Preset player with a little change, (the music is eminating from just a few feet, or a bit more, in front of me)

https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=11612

BTW, over the years I have started to change less and less on all presets because when I then compare, a preset is often better,  possibly can I do a small change.
And, your problem is a big problem. Different people like different headphones. How many have you tried? I wonder, why is it so hard to find right headphones? I think I have my seventh headphones now. Hearing a difference is not necessarily same as one being better. It might be very difficult to get a sound with headphones as listening to a real piano, and to get it exactly as you want.  And then we have this difference:
With headphones the sound is in our head, and headphones gives left sound channel sound only to left ear, and right sound channel sound only to right ear(unlike standing beside a real piano where the sound come to both ears, maybe not at the same time, and with  that rooms acustics, not at same time to both ears ). And people have different shape of heads and so on…
Headphones also can sound different in different ear canals, earflaps, and the size and shape of the head have effect on how headphones reproduce the sound(also interesting, in Ptq binaural mode you can increase the the size of the head).
Maybe in binaural recording, in the future, is the way to come closest to a sound like the one you want……
Maybe I got a bit off topic now but was thinking about these things and how they might help you. I just try to help. Listen to my ”try”  It is much about the way the sound goes before it is in the brain.

And, anyway, I dedicate this improvisation  to you dklein.

All the best,

Stig

Very good observations, Stig. I'd like to add that we "hear" with our whole bodies, as well. All our bones vibrate with the music. This is one reason headphones will never have quite the same effect as a real physical system, or a good system with speakers and natural room resonance. I once had occasion to play in a band performance, in which the audience were all deaf. They danced like crazy! They could feel the music.


Thank you so much sharpnine. I appreciate your comment.

I might add to all that have been said here, somewhat jokingly but half-seriously, that:
”It would be good if the headphones could adjust their sound settings individually according to the user's ears and head, so that even with headphones the sounds would sound coming from outside the head from a certain direction, and not from inside the head as usual.
If they still recognize the dimensions and shapes of the user's ears, based on which the headphones adjust the sound world to be unique for different ears”. Then we are already a little closer to what listening with headphones should be. 

All the best,

Stig

Reply by bm

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Re: New Bosendorfer and microphone settings for "Player" headphone soundst

Although I am a fan of using headphones with the new Bosendorfer model from Pianoteq (Kennerton Thror planar magnetic headphones on an audiovalve tube amp and a Topping E70 velvet dac), I also tried to obtain an effect psychoacoustics a little more realistic by adding to my audio channel on headphones a second channel dedicated exclusively to the vibrations of the instrument, which uses a second dac oriented towards a digital amplifier-equalizer of 630w rms (MiniDSP PWR-ICE250 with sigma dsp ADAU1445 processor ) which powers a 550 liter triple event bass reflex subwoofer with a 46cm diameter speaker (DAYTON AUDIO UM18-22 Ultimax Synchronization of the 2 DACs to headphones and sub-bass speakers is ensured by the free software). voicemeeter (vb audio), allowing you to refine the equalization on each of the headphone/hp channels), but which introduces a slight latency, which is acceptable in practice. To date, I have not yet obtained a completely satisfactory psycho-acoustic effect but I am still working on the settings.
To this day I wonder if, in the end, the material of the box (MDF 3.8 cm thick) was a good choice. I also have to manage the standing waves of a 35 m2 room sloping under a roof which can easily generate parasitic vibrations on certain frequencies with a high sound level... (to be continued)...
Bruno

Reply by dklein

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Re: New Bosendorfer and microphone settings for "Player" headphone soundst

Very cool, bm.

My setup has a bit of the built-in mechanical nature that helps with reality, since I am playing on a real piano with a MIDI strip and a stop-bar.  While I do get some mechanics just by playing the keyboard while wearing headphones, it's much more realistic when I am using my transducer soundboard setup, so the vibrations are felt through my fingers.

An additional note on Player headphone reality:  This morning I went back to my old favorite, the Steinway B, where its Player preset uses a variation of the Jazz Studio reverb settings.  This sounds quite 'present' to me.  The Bosendorfer Player preset uses Medium Hall for its reverb, which is less convincing while I'm sitting in my house.  I chose Jazz Studio for the Bosendorfer, which made things better, but still not as good.  I then realized that the Steinway B Player has some variations from the standard settings for Jazz Studio, including more pre-delay, a different Mix, and an altered Duration.  When I mirrored these changes into the Bosendorfer's Player preset, its psychoacoustics got much better, indeed!  Until today I hadn't realized that the reverb settings are such an important ingredient in the "Magic Sauce" that has made the Steinway B Player preset such a favorite of mine for all of these years.

- David

Reply by Pianoteqenthusiast

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Re: New Bosendorfer and microphone settings for "Player" headphone soundst

dklein wrote:

Very cool, bm.

My setup has a bit of the built-in mechanical nature that helps with reality, since I am playing on a real piano with a MIDI strip and a stop-bar.  While I do get some mechanics just by playing the keyboard while wearing headphones, it's much more realistic when I am using my transducer soundboard setup, so the vibrations are felt through my fingers.

An additional note on Player headphone reality:  This morning I went back to my old favorite, the Steinway B, where its Player preset uses a variation of the Jazz Studio reverb settings.  This sounds quite 'present' to me.  The Bosendorfer Player preset uses Medium Hall for its reverb, which is less convincing while I'm sitting in my house.  I chose Jazz Studio for the Bosendorfer, which made things better, but still not as good.  I then realized that the Steinway B Player has some variations from the standard settings for Jazz Studio, including more pre-delay, a different Mix, and an altered Duration.  When I mirrored these changes into the Bosendorfer's Player preset, its psychoacoustics got much better, indeed!  Until today I hadn't realized that the reverb settings are such an important ingredient in the "Magic Sauce" that has made the Steinway B Player preset such a favorite of mine for all of these years.


Bravo dklein!  In my example here   https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=11612   I too changed the reverb and now when listening with Beyerdynamic DT 990 PRO (Which I don't like because of the treble, there is too much of it, terrible) BUT, there is an area where the DT 990 really shines. The soundstage is simply fantastic; very open and spacious. The imaging on the DT 990 is also great, and very precise. So listening with them to preset Player. with change of reverb, sounds great. Listening with my Grado Lab, which I love, don’t give the same good feeling in that area listening to Player.

You are right dklein, ”…….the reverb settings are such an important ingredient in the "Magic Sauce”……..” and I add: one have there to  to listen with headphones that have fantastic, open and spacious soundstage, and great imaging

Best wishes,

Stig

Reply by LTECpiano

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Re: New Bosendorfer and microphone settings for "Player" headphone soundst

dklein wrote:

The new Bosendorfer sounds fantastic.

While I have put my piano soundboard transducer project on hold for some time, I have gone back to using my Beyerdynamic DT880 partially open headphones. 

I am looking for guidance on how to make the Player piano preset sound even more as if the music is eminating from just a few feet in front of me, and not from the center of my skull, as is oft the case when listening to music via headphones.

Philippe and the crew have done a great job with adding the two ambient microphones to the keyboard region microphones for the Player preset, yet I am looking for other techniques to make the piano sound as if it is playing in front of me.

Any directional sound psychoacoustic professionals out there to lead us further along this path?

Ah! Of course.  Anything else and you would be hearing in the dark.  I have had mine since 1987. Got them when working with Kurzweil, Waltham, MA.  They finally physically wore out.  I contacted the official Beyerdynamic repair facility in MA.  They sold me a reconditioned pair for $110.  They are beautiful and sound great.  They also sold me a new pair of transducers to install in my old pair. I had a local upholstery shop make a really nice leather headband for them.  The Beyerdyamic people are great.

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