Topic by moshuajusic

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Topic: Bluthner still bugged - high pitch buzzing

First I gotta say, FINALLY another model with Bluthner's fullness--Bosendorfer. While I don't mind spending money on you guys cuz you're great, the Bluthner should be fixed.

Quick, easy test: load a Bosendorfer preset, go to the EQ, make a broad and maximum boost around 8k, play middle register softly. Then load a Bluthner preset and do the same. The high pitched buzz should be apparent.

Sure, it's an extreme test, but the weird buzz is there and only in Bluthner.

UPDATE: after experimenting more with Bosendorfer, it's still Bluthner for me. They gotta fix this.

Last edited by moshuajusic (14-06-2024 01:57)

Reply by dikrek

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Re: Bluthner still bugged - high pitch buzzing

moshuajusic wrote:

First I gotta say, FINALLY another model with Bluthner's fullness--Bosendorfer. While I don't mind spending money on you guys cuz you're great, the Bluthner should be fixed.

Quick, easy test: load a Bosendorfer preset, go to the EQ, make a broad and maximum boost around 8k, play middle register softly. Then load a Bluthner preset and do the same. The high pitched buzz should be apparent.

Sure, it's an extreme test, but the weird buzz is there and only in Bluthner.

Did you ask their support?

Reply by moshuajusic

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Re: Bluthner still bugged - high pitch buzzing

dikrek wrote:

Did you ask their support?

Yes. Last October. They did confirm it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Reply by brundlefly

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Re: Bluthner still bugged - high pitch buzzing

moshuajusic wrote:

Quick, easy test: load a Bosendorfer preset, go to the EQ, make a broad and maximum boost around 8k, play middle register softly. Then load a Bluthner preset and do the same. The high pitched buzz should be apparent.

I only have demos of both available, but I'm not hearing anything especially bad in the Blüthner.

I'm using the VSTi, and used Cakewalk's Prochannel EQ to do the boost, +18dB with a variable Q.

Possbly you're causing clipping or too-aggressive limiting with the onboard EQ boost...?

Last edited by brundlefly (13-06-2024 18:46)

Reply by moshuajusic

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Re: Bluthner still bugged - high pitch buzzing

brundlefly wrote:

I only have demos of both available, but I'm not hearing anything especially bad in the Blüthner.

I'm using the VSTi, and used Cakewalk's Prochannel EQ to do the boost, +18dB with a variable Q.

Possbly you're causing clipping or too-aggressive limiting with the onboard EQ boost...?

Good points. That's why I posted it here this time. But I checked everything and it's not even close to clipping.

Maybe a better way to describe it is a brief metallic fizzy ping on attack. The sustain is pure. Best way to hear it is with PT's internal EQ, straight to interface, and over ear headphones. A dot on 2k, a dot on 8k, raise the 8k dot to max (+25dB), play middle register softly or medium. Freeze parameters and pick any other model. Then go back to Bluthner. Should be very apparent.

Reply by moshuajusic

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Re: Bluthner still bugged - high pitch buzzing

A visualization. The 2 EQ's after Pianoteq are just adding gain so you can clearly see what's going on in the spectrum analyzer. All plugin windows and faders are up to show there's no clipping anywhere. Quicktime doesn't seem to record sound. But you can easily replicate this and hear the difference.

In the real world? Headphones are the norm and It's not uncommon for listeners to raise the volume in ultra soft passages. That's how I discovered this flaw when listening back to my own recordings. It's important that this is fixed ASAP.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/10DdCvG...share_link

Reply by brundlefly

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Re: Bluthner still bugged - high pitch buzzing

moshuajusic wrote:

The 2 EQ's after Pianoteq are just adding gain so you can clearly see what's going on in the spectrum analyzer.

Ah, okay. I hadn't read this carefully and was wondering at first how you were getting such a high level from individual 'soft' notes. I also noticed Span is showing near 100% correlation so I'm thinking those EQs (or some other part of the signal path) are operating in mono...?

In any case, I can hear and see the issue with that setup in Cakewalk Sonar (now officially released!). Sounds a bit like the buzz of a weakly-fretted guitar string. It's hard to know whether this might actually be a feature of the real instrument that was captured in the model, but I have to commend your golden ears for detecting this in the first place without the extreme EQ and level boost. It's pretty subtle otherwise.

Last edited by brundlefly (15-06-2024 17:09)

Reply by bani223

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Re: Bluthner still bugged - high pitch buzzing

moshuajusic wrote:

but the weird buzz is there and only in Bluthner.

UPDATE: after experimenting more with Bosendorfer, it's still Bluthner for me. They gotta fix this.

Brundlefly's analysis is right. To me, this sound is noticable but not necessarily a flaw in the model as much as a sign of being true to the original

Independent of the fidelity, in terms of the end result of tone purity and clarity, to me a buzz won't usually seem to contribute directly. On the other hand, a buzz can add to brightness, loudness, fullness, percussion, and liveliness.

Last edited by bani223 (16-06-2024 18:34)
MOTU M2 using native ASIO driver, Windows 11, weird tweaks needed to make it work, but seems fine now.
I have posted several times about tweaking Pianoteq

Reply by moshuajusic

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Re: Bluthner still bugged - high pitch buzzing

bani223 wrote:

Brundlefly's analysis is right. To me, this sound is noticable but not necessarily a flaw in the model as much as a sign of being true to the original

Independent of the fidelity, in terms of the end result of tone purity and clarity, to me a buzz won't usually seem to contribute directly. On the other hand, a buzz can add to brightness, loudness, fullness, percussion, and liveliness.

Not when you're trying to play pianissimo and legato. Horowitz is probably king of bright percussive piano tone and there's no equivalent buzz on his recordings. Incredibly bright and clear, but clean. (I imported his Pathetique into Pro Tools to check.)

brundlefly wrote:

Ah, okay. I hadn't read this carefully and was wondering at first how you were getting such a high level from individual 'soft' notes. I also noticed Span is showing near 100% correlation so I'm thinking those EQs (or some other part of the signal path) are operating in mono...?

In any case, I can hear and see the issue with that setup in Cakewalk Sonar (now officially released!). Sounds a bit like the buzz of a weakly-fretted guitar string. It's hard to know whether this might actually be a feature of the real instrument that was captured in the model, but I have to commend your golden ears for detecting this in the first place without the extreme EQ and level boost. It's pretty subtle otherwise.

The mix did have a large and broad high shelf boost. Not uncommon and not usually a problem as there's typically very little going on up there, cymbals being an obvious exception.

The fact that it's only on attack, present in pianissimo, and 20-30dB higher than every other model makes me think it's flaw not feature. For now I apply broad boost with narrow cuts around 8k. It's workable but I'd be nice to know officially either way, "we'll fix that next update" or "yep, that's Bluthner!"

Reply by Stephen_Doonan

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Re: Bluthner still bugged - high pitch buzzing

moshuajusic wrote:

Sure, it's an extreme test, but the weird buzz is there and only in Bluthner.

Might this have anything to do with Bluthner's interesting innovation, aliquot strings, which exist not only in physical acoustic Bluthner pianos, but also in Modartt's Bluthner model?

https://www.pianostreet.com/blog/piano-...stem-4711/

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Reply by brundlefly

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Re: Bluthner still bugged - high pitch buzzing

Stephen_Doonan wrote:
moshuajusic wrote:

Sure, it's an extreme test, but the weird buzz is there and only in Bluthner.

Might this have anything to do with Bluthner's interesting innovation, aliquot strings, which exist not only in physical acoustic Bluthner pianos, but also in Modartt's Bluthner model?

I wondered about that and tried cranking the Aliquot control up and down but it didn't seem to affect the level or character of the "buzz" element.

Reply by Qexl

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Re: Bluthner still bugged - high pitch buzzing

Thank you @moshuajusic - it is something I'd support having a bit of a rework. Not to overlook that Bluthner lovers might feel concerns about losing out but I trust there'd be some improvements possible. So a recommended thing to explore.. +++++ from my perspective.

brundlefly wrote:

I wondered about that and tried cranking the Aliquot control up and down but it didn't seem to affect the level or character of the "buzz" element.

Yes indeed - same - all kinds of controls do not edit it.

My intuition is, indeed that it's likely an artefact from early times during measurement phase (perhaps a bit of 'aliquot' still within the attack model.. but to a degree it's seemingly supposed to be there.. maybe a revision of its tonal qualities might better suit the current model - or better, if possible transferring 'handling' of this phenom over to some other asepcts of the modelling, rather than it being somehow seeming so 'baked in'.?).

Various elements of the emanated acoustic behaviours are better separated over time under the auspices of the various controls I think - but certainly, consider the period instruments and how much 'room' is baked in to those. So, while I think everyone commenting here is correct, perhaps it is something which can be made better now. (I guess it inherently makes me mention the idea of a parallel model of 'space' - maybe based on reverse engineering 'anechoic' behaviours as they relate to the model.? Not so much as a replacement for reverb - but a quasi spatial 'wrapper' for the overall radiating model - logically perhaps like an algo to prime before IR behaviours are accounted for.)

It may seem counter-intuitive (to want to 'fix' the element well described by moshuajusic but, you could spend time 'baking' a nice mix, only for your mastering engineer to apply a broad air boost which reveals the very thing you've tried to attenuate.. I've 'worked' that Bluthner element, but that was for a very enhanced close mic effect.. and can definitely see how it might particularly inhibit the mix process, esp. for more distant pianos in an ensemble context. It's definitely not a huge problem for most use-cases but could be a nice focus for improvements to come.

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