Consensus on best pianos in PT??? - new and overwhelmed (Page 1 of 2)

i would be very surprised if there is a consensus

i spent a lot of time with the demo before purchasing.  like months.  i even did a lot of recordings using it to thoroughly check it out.  eventually i narrowed it down and got something.  but then ultimately i got studio so no help here ...

Consensus unlikely.

The Steinway B is possibly sweeter than the D but with less authority in the sound and far less presets - and only one model (not that that will be any kind of limitation on music making).
If you want the authority and dark rich bass in the lower octaves then D will probably best the B for you.

Quality and quantity- I would probably get the Petrof pack & D pack (both packs come with two pianos each).
Today if I was buying fresh personally I would get at least the D pack and the electric pianos regardless of the other choices; you already get at least two modern-ish sounding extra pianos in Kivir.

You can download the excellent Kivir free instruments  once you have Pianoteq. From that collection the Pleyel, Errard and CP80 can also be used with modern music.

All the modern grands sound great. There isn't a single dud.

Edit

When you have Pianoteq (not demo version) you can download files from the fxp section. A number of people have had a go at recreating the Bosen 290 type sound from the existing piano models.
https://forum.modartt.com/fxpcorner/index.php

This is very much a personal opinion and experience, just one data point to consider.

I play mostly for my own pleasure. I listen through a pair of Sennheisser HD-600 headphones.

I’ve accumulated several piano models over time, but the one I use by far the most is the Steinway B Prelude. I find it is the most free of strangeness in my particular setup. It sounds like I’m actually sitting at a piano and playing it.

The few times I’ve made recordings to use in something for YouTube or my web site, I have used other pianos. I think some of them “mix better” (not that I know much about mixing). Now and then I’ll change up the preset, just for fun or because I want to try out a different tonality. But for ordinary playing without any sense of artificiality, I prefer the Steinway B Prelude.

I'm guessing eventually Modartt will get around to recreating the (surely most requested?) Bos 290.
Like I have said before probably what gets in the way of this is that they have now gone down the root of official licensing of brands for the packs, rather than just alluding to brand products like they used to do. Would it look like a backwards step if they didn't have the brand approval?
I think were they to release it they would be best releasing it at the same time as another officially modeled piano. Maybe a model of the best Yamaha too.

Yamaha which also owns Bosendorfer does their own thing with modelling pianos. Maybe it's just too expensive to be worthwhile?

I don't know what the legal position would be were they to model the 290 - how closely they could name it before having to pay for licensing. The Emperor? The 290? Imperial 29?
Of course there are plenty of sampled pianos based on them so it's not as if there isn't a way.

Maybe they're holding off to eventually offer it when the engine models another aspect of the sound to make it more accurate to the 290s specific tone?

This is good advice.

Just to avoid open another topic...

I'm surprised we saw no reviews about the new pianotea feature that allow use pianoteq to generate harmonic & sympathetic ressonance effects with sampled piano libraries.

I'm curious about which piano libraries get a complete new life and which ones get just some few boosting in final quality.
We can presume the libraries with poor sympathetic ressonace emulation got vastly improved response when associated with pianoteq sympathetic ressonance effects, while the advanced libraries get more discreet results when comparing before/after.

   Modartt probably created it to bring some piano sampler costumers to try/use modelling more often.
    Why not also create a feature to generate quality intermediate velocities between sampled note sounds?

some great advice in here, and I agree, just spent a few weeks with the demo piano's to try them out. Eventually you will know which ones you like the most.

My three personal favorites are:
1: C. Bechstein DG
2: Grand Steingreaber
3: Grand Steinway D

I use the Bechstein the most of those three favorites, I also have the bluthner, grotrian, petrov and YC5, but most of the time I use one of the three above here.

If you mean what I think you do there @Beto, I totally agree.

There've been a lot of modelled instruments (incl. synth-like things, which don't try to be a specific instrument - some interesting, some still kind of sour sounging). Because of Modartt's focus on realism, their tech would be ideal as basis for some kind modelled 'anything' engine. That focus on piano though has I think been important in various ways - but indeed, many more products are coming along, using various kinds of modelled live audio engines (with strikes/plucks/bows and various different takes on mashing up choosable 'basis' tones.. like wood/metal/plastic/glass etc. - some mash up FM synthesis and old-school oscillators or other synth layers along with FX with that engine stuff.. the future is full of weird and wonderful tools - but some like Modartt have gone a long way to really make particular things vividly realistic as well as being able to be used like those syths too.).

Which best? For Steinway lovers, they'll lean toward Steinway. Some prefer Germany. Other variables, such as music genre, also contribute to the consensus.

After owning Pianoteq since version 6, playing and listening to all Pianoteq sound models, I have come to the conclusion that all Pianoteq sounds have been great since the 8.2 version. However, there's only one that the Modartt team probably needs to address in the future update:

The Reverb setting.

Sample piano has advantages over piano modeling because it captures the reverb and other nuanced aspects of the room. The only downside is that not everybody likes the sounds because they are fixed. Also, they don't have the same full dynamic as Pianoteq and even more of the real acoustic piano.

Pianoteq, however, came so dry, raw, and pure and has a wider dynamic. The engine has so many flexible tools that need to be adjusted accordingly to meet our needs. The only downside is that not everybody has good ears and the right tools to make all the adjustments to our needs that might represent the general consensus.

I listened to a few YouTubers that use Valhalla reverb, and they sounds lovely.

If Modartt can make a great reverb like the Valhalla reverb, then all the favoritism towards one particular piano brand would be minimized. It's just my opinion, though.

I can back up my claim by comparing Ableton 10 vs. Ableton 11/12 Reverb. The difference is jaw-dropping. You all can hear the differences in your machine. For the piano sounds, the Valhalla still won my ears.

If Modartt can upgrade the reverb close to the Valhalla level, our need to fix mic settings and other necessary adjustments would be greatly minimized.

It is. That's the reason Ableton 11 and 12 are unusable on my 2014 MacBook Pro 15-inch. I use their trial versions just to enjoy the reverb sounds for playback file and any editing.

Yes. Valhalla reverb sounds amazing. I still wish Modartt would add this beautiful reverb (on par) for future updates. To my knowledge, I have never seen any reverb updates since Pianoteq 6 (I might be wrong). It'll be interesting to enjoy it once it's updated to the next Pianoteq 8.3, or maybe Pianoteq 9. Reverb is the main ingredient (secret sauce) in all sounds.

That may be so FOR YOU. But for many, including myself, it's a huge pain in the neck!

First, you have to purchase Reaper. Besides the expense, it's another piece of software to mange, update, keep track of, have an account, etc. Even just that alone would be huge pain for me (too many accounts, too many things to track already). Then rinse and repeat with Valhalla or other reverbs, yet another account, uptdate, etc. Even assuming you have a compatible OS, which some people don't (since none are available on Linux AFAIK).

And this is even assuming everything else you said is right, which may be FOR YOU, but definitely not FOR people like ME. I tried the 30-day trial of Reaper and I did not buy it because it's DEFINITELY not made for someone like me who comes from an acoustic piano background. It has so many options and things that even to simply start up took me an unreasonable amount of time. Not because it's slow, but because it's incomprehensible. Totally unintuitive interface for musicians, even to just getting the sound out you need to consult the manual. In my opinion Reaper is made for sound engineers (or maybe "electronic musicians")

Then what if one wants their pianoteq to be headless? Alone it works beautifully as many have demonstrated. Not so much in the situation you describe, too many moving parts even with a display.... So no, even the "simple" Reaper DAW does not cut it. If pianoteq were to sell reverbs and other effects like they do with instruments, and made them work seamlessly in pianoteq/organteq I would definitely buy those from them rather than messing up with third parties (which as you may have guessed, I don't do).

There are a few important reasons why it's good to have a new additional reverb for future updates as opposed to using Reaper or other favorite DAWs:

1. Pianoteq on iPad users can not use those third-party plug-ins at all.

2. No Reapers on the iPad.

3. Not everyone has Reapers on desktop, even though it's affordable.

4. User friendly.

I have had Reapers on my Mac since 2016, but I never use it. As for me, the GUI is very important. Loading Pianoteq in Reapers is not as easy as in Ableton. Probably because I am not a technical guy.

For me, Pianoteq is the Apple version of Piano DAW since I got it in version 6 for two reasons:

1. I fell in love at first sight of the website page and GUI. The Modartt team did a very good job with that, hands down.

2. It's a small file, but powerful.

3. Sounds.

I know it's cliche, but since I'm also a marketing guy, people look at their outside appearance first before buying. For some reason, Reapers needs to work in that department to be more interesting. Again, this is just my personal opinion.

I do hate Ableton 10 sounds and also 11/12 (even though they improved the engine sounds, as mentioned in their website description), where both resources hoag. The sound editing in Ableton is also not as good as in other DAWs. But since Ableton is super simple, has an interesting GUI, and also has a beautiful, friendly website, I am still hooked and keep going back to it even though I have Logic and Cubase. Speaking of logic on the iPad, I think I will use it a lot in the future because of the Drum A.I. that could replace my Arranger Keyboard. Let's move on to the original topic.

Pianoteq has a few weaknesses compared to other piano VSTs. But those few don't bother me at all because those great elements (love at first sight) already get into my head and muscle memory. We're not talking about the other great benefits yet, such as the new update and top-notch customer support.

So far, I don't have any complaints about the pianoteq sounds, even though they're not perfect. The only one that I can think of is finding the perfect solution, which is the new updated reverb that is on par with the Valhalla reverb.

SamTheBeardGuy uses Valhalla reverb, and it sounds lovely. I knew it after reading the comment sections.

I really hope Modartt gives a new amazing Reverb update in the future. I guarantee it will make pianoteq sound way better than before.

The "guaranteed" word is probably overstated. However, for years, I believed my ears and saw all the improvements in Pianoteq. That's never failed me yet.

Best regards.

REAPER is indeed very feature rich. I recommend instead software that’s designed for live performing musicians.

Some options:

https://www.steinberg.net/vst-live/

https://www.cantabilesoftware.com/

https://gigperformer.com/

https://www.apple.com/uk/mainstage/ If you have a Mac

For DAWs that are simple (and free) 

https://www.apple.com/uk/mac/garageband/

https://www.uaudio.com/luna.html

Fair enough, sorry.

I actually said Linux someone else said iPad. Hard to tell for sure what would work for "the vast percentage" of people

Okay, thanks for clarifying. I evidently may have confused that part with something else which I tried and disliked.

No, that also was also someone else. As I said, I *hate* the complexity of DAWs, even "simple" ones like Reaper. So I'd hate if Pianoteq became a DAW. I said that I would finance with my purchase if Modartt sold additional effects (with either better variety or better quality) as they sell other instruments today -- and with no/minimal change to the current interface.

To let you understand me better, besides the complexity of DAWs, I also *hate* the complexity of samplers such as Kontakt and Aria/Sforzando! For me, the major appeal of Pianoteq is the intuitive interface, laid out for a pianist, rather than for computer geeks like all the others stuff mentioned in this thread (or not). Pianoteq may also be more playable than other things, but I am such a poor player that I can't tell the difference (maybe one day I will, but not now). Sound wise, I like it a lot, but I think there are better sounding virtual instruments. As such, once I set up to run Pianoteq into a DAWs (if I succeed, which with Reaper took a long time), it takes away that simplicity and at that point I'd rather use Garritan, or even something more annoying like Ivory or the Vienna monsters....

????

Not sure what you mean by "FX plugin" game. I said that I don't want Pianoteq to become a DAW, so there must be no "plugin" to load or ability to use those effects somewhere else. In the same way in which today you can try demo or buy additional pianos in the Pianoteq interface, I think there could be options to buy (additional) effects for people who want. If you don't want, you keep the default which I am not advocating to remove. If Modartt spends time and money to develop it, why they should not get the revenue?

Mmmm, if it's so good, then why some people are suggesting to use Reaper and Valhalla and the likes?

Vibrato and tremolo might be useful for electric pianos, but they are useless for acoustic, at least as far as I am able to use them (they might help to simulate prepared or worn pianos, but neither is something that appeals me)

That's correct, thanks for your patience with it.

Okay, I think this now clearly explain our different views to ourselves and everyone else.

Hopefully with this detour we did not scare too much the OP, and have instead helped him/her to decide what would work best for his/her circumstances/preferences.

It's doable. In a DAW like Reaper you can set them up to only scan for changes, so they open nearly instantaneously.
Otherwise you can clear a cache and rescan if something isn't scanning properly. Users would want that to only happen when they first scan or update drives or have a problem finding a plugin. Also sometimes you have to show your chosen daw to find the plugin folder/s.

These are levels of complexity probably best left to a DAW, but some might welcome the option.

I don't think it would be great to be also troubleshooting users who don't have their new third party plug-in appearing in Pianoteq.  This happens all the time on daw forums - help and advice to make a given plugin appear.

Then again uses aren't going to want just one plug-in FX. Therefore we are talking an FX channel strip.

As we can now have three instruments that's three strips. Then you would have Pianoteq loading say 12 FX plugins (this could be more per instrument though with delays,reverb, EQ, compressor, chorus, phaser and more) all of which could potentially have compatibility issues - though most of the time they all play ball happily.

That's an excellent point. I suspect they feel it being unnecessary, since there is already the demo, but obviously the demo has some (albeit small) limitations so it's not the same.

And as you said, it'd be better to take money now (allowing change for 30 days), than somebody trying to make their mind just with the demo and not paying.

I could speculate that perhaps they don't offer that to prevent abuse, since their licenses work on three computers and even offline, somebody could buy Standard with the 3 included "free" instruments, activate them on one offline machine, then change the 3 instruments to something else, activate them on another offline machine, rinse and repeat on the third and end with 9 instruments for the price of none. Since the machines are all offline, there would be no way for them to know that something has changed in the license, unless the user explicitly brings it there.

So I think this is a small price to pay to have the flexibility of Pianoteq working as nicely as it does on any machine, online or offline, without hardware tokens etc.

I don't think that should factor in any decisions as ALL the pianos will be new to a new user like the OP.

If you waited for the latest thing these days you would never buy anything!

Just in case anyone's glitching on a loop waiting for the new piano to drop, I should point out the following..

If a new user changes their mind about one of the pianos they initially chose to begin with, Modartt have a reasonable policy about 'swapping' it out. Kind of can't lose if a new fav emerges..

For example, within like a month or something give support an email to explain that you've changed your mind, and now genuinely prefer piano Y instead of piano X for the starting choice.

They have to draw a line somewhere and I wouldn't suggest doing this more than once in the first month-ish out of absolute fairness to them - but they take good care of recent purchasers who, I think often have that first-time buyer's regret. Hope that helps.

Then again, if you get through that perfectly natural phase of thinking things like "maybe I should have got that other one", you could end up happily collecting more anyway over time.

I think some kettles are simmering. OP had asked about something earlier...

Pete, have you seen the latest user manual?

For me - with the instrument packs I have - it goes...

Modified Steinway B  (just most convincing, feeling like it's really in front of me)

Bluthner  (lots said about this one)

Steinway D (Hamburg)   just more woody then the NY

The trickiest part is that it depends on Pianoteq version heavily.
I did not like Hamburg D before 8.3, but it is currently the best (or one of 3 best) IMO.
But nobody knows what will happen with 8.4 or 9.0 - Modartt adjusts models all the time, and it is quite possible that some other piano will sound the best for me when the next version is released.

These are my go-to pianos I use with the Bechstein being the one I use the most also. I have them all but I always fall back on these. The Petroff has been used off and on recently along with the Blüthner but I find I'm most comfortable with these three. My least favorite is the Grotrian. To me, this is the plainest of all the pianos. Being very plain, it's a good starting point for modeling other pianos if you want to customize them.