Topic by phoenix

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Topic: Petrof Mistral Gentle – Enabling Partial Pedaling

The Petrof Mistral Gentle preset's pedaling configuration behaves in a binary on/off manner.

I'm not sure if this is intentional, but I couldn't find any documentation how to adjust the partial pedaling behavior in the user manual. I noticed that the "Damper Position" parameter is lower than the other Petrof Mistral presets (which do have functional partial pedaling), but raising that to match the other presets doesn't affect the binary pedaling behavior.

Is this something that I can adjust using the user UI, or is it something that would need to be addressed at a lower level?

Reply by brundlefly

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Re: Petrof Mistral Gentle – Enabling Partial Pedaling

phoenix wrote:

The Petrof Mistral Gentle preset's pedaling configuration behaves in a binary on/off manner.

Indeed, the Mistral - Gentle preset has a very unusual, non-default pedal curve, and also Note Off and Aftertouch curves. You might want to reset those and re-save to get the more expected behavior.

I'm also seeing a UI display anomaly with this particular preset where the Mic mode section shows "Mics 2021 Qexl..." (a mic preset?) intead of "Microphones". It displays correctly when I reselect Microphones.

Reply by Qexl

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Re: Petrof Mistral Gentle – Enabling Partial Pedaling

Heya phoenix - the Petrof Mistral 'Gentle' is a preset which is not a concert grand in style - it will reward very gentle playing.

The pedal and other variant things may have changed in operation (after some Pianoteq updates) - but I still see my pedal giving me quite a desired gradated effect.. definitely not binary. It still works as intended here. But I'd suggest that those things could be altered to something more ordinary in future. Thanks for pointing out that it might not work well for others. Personally I like variation - and not all presets should 'behave the same' imho.. but I see confusion about these things more often nowadays.. so happy if they go away.

Definitely excellent advice from brundlefly - if you copy/paste pedal or note-off data from other pianos with operation you prefer (use A/B to quickly go between 2 pianos).. many data panes will allow right-click and give a menu with things like copy/paste. Hope that helps.. and definitely do as brundlefly suggests.. "Save As" and begin making a library of your own custom versions of the pianos.

No idea how everyone uses every preset - but just sitting down to this Mistral Gentle made me waffle on in this way, for reference.. this is kind of result is to my liking for this kind of preset. I'd often do more to the sound within a DAW to any piano I record when making something more finished but it's kind of fine enough as it is for general purposes too imho. - but for sure edit anything you like how you like it - it certainly gets easier with time.

Improv waffle on Petrof Mistral Gentle preset

brundlefly wrote:

Mics 2021 Qexl..." (a mic preset?) intead of "Microphones

Re the mics.. I've contributed variously over the years (I don't ask for attribution). IIRC for those and others, I sometimes mimic things I did going back in the time machine, on real pianos in studio settings. They're not meant to be 'best evarr' or anything - and I never come here saying "hey look at my presets".. but for sure, lots of people here on the forum may contribute in various ways, beta etc. I'm just one of many - some of whom are more interested in very particular things which I'm highly appreciative of. My input since before the Mistral is a tiny fraction of what Modartt and others do in unison. Excellence which is always a joy to witness.

OMHO I think you'd be a welcome candidate for beta testing, brundlefly - I often see you asking/suggesting interesting things! and offering intelligent conversational advice.. good form - and not seemingly keen to be playing troll/ego games with others (just a note intended for Modartt - a little kind-of reference fwiw). Cheers!

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Reply by phoenix

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Re: Petrof Mistral Gentle – Enabling Partial Pedaling

Thank you for the replies!

After digging into it a bit more I found out the reason why it appeared binary on my hardware – my sustain pedal (a Nord Triple Pedal from ~10 years ago) only registers midi values corresponding to sustain values of [0.00, 0.17, 0.50, 0.67, 1.00], but almost all of the action in partial pedaling curve for the Petrof Mistral Gentle preset happens in the range of 0.84 – 1.00. So functionally my pedal isn't sensitive enough for anything other than binary pedaling.

I'll see if there're any changes I can make to make the preset more compatible with the hardware I have later

Reply by Qexl

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Re: Petrof Mistral Gentle – Enabling Partial Pedaling

Super! - well, kind of.. (good to know the isolation of the issue is found). I'm barracking for you in finding an adjustment for your pedal so you can shape it do more of what you prefer it to do.

If you get a good result, for sure feel welcome to post what you did to solve for it  - probaly a lot of Nord folk who'd stumble across the fix in future times. It's definitely one of the weakest links for electronic music makers - kind of always the case that some things won't translate for various users depending on equipment. My pedal is getting on in years too now - and almost comically goes from perfectly fine, to suddenly jittery every so often.

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Reply by brundlefly

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Re: Petrof Mistral Gentle – Enabling Partial Pedaling

Qexl wrote:

OMHO I think you'd be a welcome candidate for beta testing, brundlefly - I often see you asking/suggesting interesting things! and offering intelligent conversational advice.. good form - and not seemingly keen to be playing troll/ego games with others (just a note intended for Modartt - a little kind-of reference fwiw). Cheers!

Thank you; I appreciate the recognition and the recommendation. I spent good parts of my career doing various forms of technical support, and always strive to help without condescension and to be constructive in general. But I do have opinions, and have a low tolerance for "people being wrong on the Internet." ;^)

I also spent good parts of my career working in hardware/software devleopment, testing and troubleshooting. I would consider beta-testing for Modartt but already do that for another developer that keeps me pretty busy. Pianoteq is a very interesting and deep piece of software so I enjoy poking at it and analyzing its behavior as a tester would.

Reply by brundlefly

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Re: Petrof Mistral Gentle – Enabling Partial Pedaling

phoenix wrote:

After digging into it a bit more I found out the reason why it appeared binary on my hardware – my sustain pedal (a Nord Triple Pedal from ~10 years ago) only registers midi values corresponding to sustain values of [0.00, 0.17, 0.50, 0.67, 1.00], but almost all of the action in partial pedaling curve for the Petrof Mistral Gentle preset happens in the range of 0.84 – 1.00. So functionally my pedal isn't sensitive enough for anything other than binary pedaling.

Even for a pedal/keyboard that generates all possible continuous values, the Mistral - Gentle pedal curve is very steep in the region where a lot of the most noticeable "undamping" occurs, making it difficult to modulate.

Related to this, I've been meaning to mention for a while that I've removed the flat upper and lower segments of the default pedal curve because my Roland DP-10/RD-700NX pedal/keyboard combo already has "lash" built into both ends of the pedal movement so the "dead' zones in Pianoteq's pedal curve are not needed. And removing them reduces the overall slope of the curve, making it easier to modulate the damping in the "active" region of the pedal's physical travel. I would guess that a lot of manufacturers similarly have "lash" built into their pedal systems so other users could benefit from a one-to-one pedal curve as well.

Reply by dv

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Re: Petrof Mistral Gentle – Enabling Partial Pedaling

brundlefly wrote:
phoenix wrote:

the Petrof Mistral Gentle preset happens in the range of 0.84 – 1.00. So functionally my pedal isn't sensitive enough for anything other than binary pedaling.

Even for a pedal/keyboard that generates all possible continuous values, the Mistral - Gentle pedal curve is very steep in the region where a lot of the most noticeable "undamping" occurs, making it difficult to modulate.

Some acoustic grand pianos (including mine, which is otherwise a fantastic instrument) are indeed like that: in my case only in the tiniest beginning of the travel there is a damper movement causing  difference in sound -- once you reach 1/8 or so of the travel, the dampers are raised enough to not even nearly touching the strings anymore -- therefore the so called half-pedal, or 1/4 pedal or 7/8 pedal or any other fraction larger than about 1/8 is just identical to "full pedal".

Last edited by dv (21-05-2024 18:19)
Where do I find a list of all posts I upvoted? :(

Reply by brundlefly

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Re: Petrof Mistral Gentle – Enabling Partial Pedaling

dv wrote:

Some acoustic grand pianos (including mine, which is otherwise a fantastic instrument) are indeed like that: in my case only in the tiniest beginning of the travel there is a damper movement causing  difference in sound -- once you reach 1/8 or so of the travel, the dampers are raised enough to not even nearly touching the strings anymore -- therefore the so called half-pedal, or 1/4 pedal or 7/8 pedal or any other fraction larger than about 1/8 is just identical to "full pedal".

Hmmm.. not seeing the reply I attempted to post so re-submitting:

Yes, I would say my Yamaha G5 and most other pianos I've played behave similarly. But the Mistral Gentle pedal curve puts that "quick-release" behavior at the bottom of the pedal travel, which I expect would feel unnatural to most players.

Reply by Qexl

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Re: Petrof Mistral Gentle – Enabling Partial Pedaling

Yes, the Gentle preset is, at least to me, not meant for concert style.

I made the pedal that way, maybe ironically because my pedal really has a lot of input in the top depression action. For gentle playing (maybe cinematic or ambient waffling, more than classical pianistic or concert style) I tend to ride my foot higher onto the pedal, mostly 'rocking' subtly in that range. Kind of like softening the toe's leverage - using more of the mid foot and riding the zone where it counts. With the pedal in a normal state, that could definitely suit others though.

Sometimes diffs like that are what help people to check out "What's happening - it plays differently" and they may discover a new thing, like "Oh, I can edit the pedal curve? Cool" - and maybe then improve their own fav curve to save and re-use

brundlefly wrote:

Thank you; I appreciate the recognition and the recommendation.

That's what its all about. I do recognize and appreciate you and hoping there's a timeline etc. for you. I can't of course guarantee it - but will also write in. To be fair to everyone, there are many here who contribute such good ideas and help - and beta can be demanding etc.. so it's not everyone's idea of fun - and many do get to join in on beta sessions over time to give their input. There are also long term core people and to me you would be a very good fit. Here's hoping

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Reply by Jon S

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Re: Petrof Mistral Gentle – Enabling Partial Pedaling

Qexl wrote:

Yes, the Gentle preset is, at least to me, not meant for concert style.

I made the pedal that way, maybe ironically because my pedal really has a lot of input in the top depression action. For gentle playing (maybe cinematic or ambient waffling, more than classical pianistic or concert style) I tend to ride my foot higher onto the pedal, mostly 'rocking' subtly in that range. Kind of like softening the toe's leverage - using more of the mid foot and riding the zone where it counts. With the pedal in a normal state, that could definitely suit others though.

Sometimes diffs like that are what help people to check out "What's happening - it plays differently" and they may discover a new thing, like "Oh, I can edit the pedal curve? Cool" - and maybe then improve their own fav curve to save and re-use

brundlefly wrote:

Thank you; I appreciate the recognition and the recommendation.

That's what its all about. I do recognize and appreciate you and hoping there's a timeline etc. for you. I can't of course guarantee it - but will also write in. To be fair to everyone, there are many here who contribute such good ideas and help - and beta can be demanding etc.. so it's not everyone's idea of fun - and many do get to join in on beta sessions over time to give their input. There are also long term core people and to me you would be a very good fit. Here's hoping


Hi Qexl,

Really like your audio demo, could you please share your preset setting? Did you change any factor of it to achieve this gentle sound? Or you just switch to this preset and play then it sounds this gentle?

Reply by Qexl

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Re: Petrof Mistral Gentle – Enabling Partial Pedaling

Hi Jon S, thank you - so glad you enjoy it!

IIRC, the demo was not my music but from the Minnesota International Piano e-Competition (posted this Wikipedia link, as the main website link is at the bottom of the wiki page - it didn't load well for me, otherwise I would have linked to it directly).

I thought it went well with that sound - and still love the delicately emotional vulnerability expressed within the performance by Yinfei Wang (Scarlatti - Sonata in B minor - K. 87). I believe with each update, demos are also updated to reflect the piano/presets but I have not any role in that process.

I like how Pianoteq has some quite 'expected' preset types and 'unexpected' alike - and appreciate how versatile it can be. Great product allowing any kind of pianist of any level to really hone their own vision imho. Most of the music I make using Pianoteq is studio driven so as much as I like this preset by itself in stand-alone mode, I often go further (magnifying/mixing etc.) in my music - and these kinds of presets exceed - imparting things I like at least.

About playing Gentle presets gently to make good use of this kind of preset, I think it's just a mode really, or mindset to get into, explore etc. if unfamiliar. It's a pretty forgiving preset and can be played fairly normally - but at least to me, its qualities are best revealed in lower velo ranges.

I'd offer a goal of seeking to 'tend to range' most key strikes below 'midway-ish' (keeping a peeper on the 'velocity pane' on the main interface.. you'll see how along the bottom it lists MIDI velocity from 0 to 127.. it's up to every person, the piece, the goal etc.. but I feel the tones in this preset can work wonderfully when you see more 'mp' than 'mf' for example.. and for sure, that's not to say never a louder strike to be made.. but, generally the 'glue' for my tastes is when I'm seeing velocities under and around half way.. with emphasis/harmony etc. not much more than 75-ish - every piece/taste will differ on what's preferred though - and I've enjoyed some extremely gentler playing than that.. and some higher velo too.. the confluence of many factors seems where reality sits for any individual's pleasure.)

Pianoteq allows not only a good results with one piano sound (or a sub-selection of the few which come with any dpiano) but also quite a bustling library of absolutely terrific instruments, from times past to present day instruments. And to think, this can continue along into the future - really pleasing.. and for sure, Gentle in this piano, or even the guitar, are simply a kind of variant (not an exacting thing per instrument, a generalization really) which hopefully inspires others to find their own versions and visions for their own music - and get into the fabulous craft of producing their own hand-hewn piano sounds to make wonderful music, from classical to the modern

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