Topic by ds

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  • ds
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  • Registered: 08-05-2009
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Topic: Feature Request: Better control over pedal noise

I know the pedal sound has been improved recently but it still sticks out as an 'unnatural' aspect of Pianoteq (to my ears, at least) - this is all the more noticeable as the rest of the modelling is absolutely fantastic now.

It seems as if the Pedal Noise parameter in the Action settings controls a number of things at once, in a not particularly intuitive fashion.

1. The sound of the pedal itself being depressed (the 'thud')
2. The energy imparted into the instrument by the pedal ('shimmer' of the strings)
3. The interaction of the strings with the damper, regardless of the pedal position

3. is especially surprising, and is easy to notice with the value turned all the way up - there is a metallic 'shuffling' sound with every key press (particularly noticeable in the Bechstein model).  Bizarrely, this is present even with damper noise turned completely off. (Perhaps this is the entire pedal assembly being modeled, including the dampers?  It's surprising regardless)

2. Seems to be (at a guess) just the interaction of the dampers lifting off the strings - the resonances are all in very high partials, whereas (at least in uprights), the pedal thunk itself excites the strings and produces resonance across the range.  It just reinforces the weird 'overlaid sample' sense I get from the pedal thunk.

I'd love to be able to control some of these aspects separately, since I don't think I ever want noisy dampers, or for the thunk to show up in recordings, but definitely value the ability to 'ride' the pedal imparting extra energy into the tail end of held notes.

I don't mean this to seem like too much of a complaint, but rather some thoughts on things that could be even better - overall I'm delighted with Pianoteq (and the continual improvements that are made)

Reply by dickiefunk

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Re: Feature Request: Better control over pedal noise

I would also like separate controls of the different aspects of the pedal noise. NI Noire has this.

Reply by NathanShirley

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  • NathanShirley
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Re: Feature Request: Better control over pedal noise

#3 is an issue that was caught recently and looks like there will be a fix soon: https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=11250

Personally I hear a decent amount of bass in #2, but I might be misunderstanding. Each piano responds in a unique way when you "stomp" the damper pedal. Have you tried the upright U4 to compare?

I've found that a significant pedal response curve can help a lot with getting a more natural response from MIDI pedals (even the best seem to have a limited MIDI "resolution").

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Reply by brundlefly

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Re: Feature Request: Better control over pedal noise

NathanShirley wrote:

I've found that a significant pedal response curve can help a lot with getting a more natural response from MIDI pedals (even the best seem to have a limited MIDI "resolution").

A couple of thoughts related to this:

I discovered some time ago that my Roland continuous pedal already has "lash" built into it at both ends of the travel (i.e. some movement before a 1 is sent and after 127). So I removed the redundant flat spots that the default Pianoteq curve has so it's linear from 0 to 127 and just passes what the pedal sends.

I also discovered the my RD-700NX will generate at most one message very 8 miliseconds. So in typical usage it will only generate 10-12 messages from full up to full down over a period of 70-80 milliseconds. If I pedal slowly enough to generate no more than one new value every 8ms, the resolution is there, but it's not realistically achievable in normal playing (at 125bpm, 8ms x 127 messages is longer than a half note). I'd be curious to know if other controllers generate sustain messages at a higher rate.

Regarding the feature reques more generally,I wouldn't mind having an independent "thunk" control, but I don't find the current implementation that objectionable or even noticeable.

I did some testing with different densities and rates of sustain controller messages being sent to the VSTi in Cakewalk and found the effect to be so subtle with the default (0dB) Pedal Noise level at nominal monitoring levels with "typical" pedal usage as to be virtually inaudible in most real-world playing contexts. You have to really crank the setting and pedal unusually fast/aggressively to pick out the pedal "thunk" and/or the "loom of strings" sound in the context of more than one low-velocity note being played.

Using the NY Steinway Classical preset at the default settings with the pedal technique and behavior described above, the peak level of the pedal noise alone was around -40dB, roughly equivalent to playing Middle C by itself with velocity = 2. Pedaling a little slower - 100ms to full down - dropped the pedal noise to -48dB

It seems to me the only case in which the default pedal noise is going to be really objectionable is if you use a standard on/off-style sustain pedal; instantaneously switching from CC64=0 to 127 definitely generates an obnoxiously loud "thunk" and "loom" sound

Last edited by brundlefly (25-02-2024 00:45)