Topic by prizmod

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Topic: Bad experiences with the Kawai VPC1. Looking for alternatives.

Hi everyone! First post here.

Pre-post edit: Oh boy, this has become a wall of text. Jump to the TL;DR if you're not willing to read through all of this.

About 7 Months ago, I upgraded from my trusty Kawai ES8 (RH3 is a nice keybed overall, but very light and annoyingly noisy) to a new Kawai VPC1.

So, here's my setup: The VPC1 feeds MIDI into Pianoteq 8, which outputs the audio through a Steinberg UR22C interface into Focal Alpha EVO 65 studio monitors. I even 3D-printed some custom brackets for the UR22C and my HP mini-PC to mount them to my K&M Omega 18810 stand. To me, that's a pretty decked out setup, at least for my purposes as a hobby pianist mostly focusing on classical music.

Everything could (and should) have been so great: I much prefer the highly customizable sound of PTQ to the engine in the ES8. The monitors do a great job and provide more than enough volume. And - most importantly - the VPC1's RM3-Grand II keybed feels very good, substantially better than the RH3.

But, sadly, my experience regarding the QC with the VPC1 is not very good.

The first issue

I quickly noticed that I had some obvious "hot" keys which delivered a drastically higher MIDI velocity than their direct neighbors. It was bad enough to really bother me, especially when the same few notes clearly stuck out in fast arpeggios. In my search for a possible fix, I came accross this thread which suggests that this was not an isolated case: https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=6886

At first, I simply measured the response of all my keys and calculated individual offsets to correct the issue using the VPCEditor. This helped, but now I couldn't reach high velocities on the keys with larger offsets anymore.

So, I contacted my dealer (Thomann.de) and arranged for the unit to be picked up and repaired. Almost four weeks went by before it finally arrived at my doorstep again. I went to test it and... I was pleasantly surprised seeing that my velocity issues were mostly resolved, I could now cover the full velocity range 0-127 on all keys and the response (while still not perfect) was much more even.

The second issue

Everything was good for the past three months. I really enjoyed playing on the VPC1. Until a few days ago, when all of a sudden the E1 key stopped working. Nothing happens when I press it. The only way to get it to sound is to fully press it down, let go just a little and then fully press it again. I suspect sensor 1 has died while sensors 2 and 3 still function.

Since E1 is on the far end of the keybed, it doesn't bother me during regular playing all that much. But still, this means I will have to once again contact my dealer and arrange for a pickup, leaving me without a piano for likely another month. I also have to carry the VPC1 down from the second floor, which is not so easy considering the weight.

TL;DR:

In the seven months that I've owned a (new!) VPC1, I now have to send it in for repairs for the second time due to keybed defects.

I'm really getting frustrated, and I'm entertaining the idea of selling the VPC1 once it has been repaired since I just can't trust it anymore. I've always planned that my next piano will be a decent acoustic upright (preferably with a silent-feature) and that the VPC1 could fullfill all my needs until then.

I'm not quite sure if I want to invest that kind of money (north of 9000 €) into something like the K300 ATX4 or Aures 2 just yet. I'm also not convinced that I want another digital in the slab form factor, as I'll have to move my piano setup into the living room at some point in the next 12-15 months, since we're planning to have kids and will need the room it's currently in. And my (soon-to-be) wife and I agree that we want an upright/console-style piano in the living room for the looks. No studio monitors or any other clutter.

Looking for alternatives

I guess I'll look into the current higher end console-style digitals (CLP785, CA901, LX708, GP510). These are all within a pice range of 3700€ (CA901) to 4600€ (CLP785) in germany, about half the price (or less) of a K300 ATX4. Does anyone mind sharing their experience with any of these models and how well they play with Pianoteq through their integrated speakers?

And does anyone know if the latest Kawai GF3 keybed has similar issues?

I'm really sorry for the sheer wall of text above, I just had to write it off my chest

Last edited by prizmod (12-02-2024 14:43)

Reply by hillcow

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Re: Bad experiences with the Kawai VPC1. Looking for alternatives.

Stay away from Kawai GF3. I tried one a couple days ago here in Munich, Germany. Keys still suffering from the clicky noise problem.

My advice would be to join the Casio GP-300 club, see: https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=11266

Action is exactly the same as GP-310 or GP-510.

Get one used from Kleinanzeigen. I paid 1.100€ last week for mine. Works beautifully with Pianoteq and the action plays fantastically imo.

Then, later, you can still get something really nice for your living room.

Casio GP-300

Reply by prizmod

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Re: Bad experiences with the Kawai VPC1. Looking for alternatives.

hillcow wrote:

Stay away from Kawai GF3. I tried one a couple days ago here in Munich, Germany. Keys still suffering from the clicky noise problem.

My advice would be to join the Casio GP-300 club, see: https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=11266

Action is exactly the same as GP-310 or GP-510.

Get one used from Kleinanzeigen. I paid 1.100€ last week for mine. Works beautifully with Pianoteq and the action plays fantastically imo.

Then, later, you can still get something really nice for your living room.

Thank you for the suggestion - looks like the GP-300/310 could also be an option. How are the speakers with Pianoteq? Do you have anything to compare them to?

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a reasonable offer within 50km of my location.

I haven't heard about a "clicking" noise issue in the GF3, that's definitely something I'll watch out for if I get the chance to play one in a store. However, my VPC1 had a key that produced a kind of "click" whenever it was pressed. I believe is was D4. It turned out that there was a small splinter of wood on the key which rubbed against the key next to it. The issue was resolved after I carefully removed it with a sharp knife. Maybe it's a similar issue with the wooden keys on the GF3?

Reply by hillcow

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Re: Bad experiences with the Kawai VPC1. Looking for alternatives.

Speakers are only okay. I got studio monitors on top of it I drove 300km for it.

Again, stay away from GF3. The issue occurs on every model after a while of playing according to Kawai support. And it is unfortunately not easy to fix. Read into if you like: https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads...ca701.html - lots of reports in this thread. this is what it sounds like: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/2RV9GG1P2jI

Last edited by hillcow (12-02-2024 17:25)
Casio GP-300

Reply by Pianistically

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Re: Bad experiences with the Kawai VPC1. Looking for alternatives.

prizmod wrote:

Hi everyone! First post here.

Pre-post edit: Oh boy, this has become a wall of text. Jump to the TL;DR if you're not willing to read through all of this.

About 7 Months ago, I upgraded from my trusty Kawai ES8 (RH3 is a nice keybed overall, but very light and annoyingly noisy) to a new Kawai VPC1.

So, here's my setup: The VPC1 feeds MIDI into Pianoteq 8, which outputs the audio through a Steinberg UR22C interface into Focal Alpha EVO 65 studio monitors. I even 3D-printed some custom brackets for the UR22C and my HP mini-PC to mount them to my K&M Omega 18810 stand. To me, that's a pretty decked out setup, at least for my purposes as a hobby pianist mostly focusing on classical music.

Everything could (and should) have been so great: I much prefer the highly customizable sound of PTQ to the engine in the ES8. The monitors do a great job and provide more than enough volume. And - most importantly - the VPC1's RM3-Grand II keybed feels very good, substantially better than the RH3.

But, sadly, my experience regarding the QC with the VPC1 is not very good.

The first issue

I quickly noticed that I had some obvious "hot" keys which delivered a drastically higher MIDI velocity than their direct neighbors. It was bad enough to really bother me, especially when the same few notes clearly stuck out in fast arpeggios. In my search for a possible fix, I came accross this thread which suggests that this was not an isolated case: https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=6886

At first, I simply measured the response of all my keys and calculated individual offsets to correct the issue using the VPCEditor. This helped, but now I couldn't reach high velocities on the keys with larger offsets anymore.

So, I contacted my dealer (Thomann.de) and arranged for the unit to be picked up and repaired. Almost four weeks went by before it finally arrived at my doorstep again. I went to test it and... I was pleasantly surprised seeing that my velocity issues were mostly resolved, I could now cover the full velocity range 0-127 on all keys and the response (while still not perfect) was much more even.

The second issue

Everything was good for the past three months. I really enjoyed playing on the VPC1. Until a few days ago, when all of a sudden the E1 key stopped working. Nothing happens when I press it. The only way to get it to sound is to fully press it down, let go just a little and then fully press it again. I suspect sensor 1 has died while sensors 2 and 3 still function.

Since E1 is on the far end of the keybed, it doesn't bother me during regular playing all that much. But still, this means I will have to once again contact my dealer and arrange for a pickup, leaving me without a piano for likely another month. I also have to carry the VPC1 down from the second floor, which is not so easy considering the weight.

TL;DR:

In the seven months that I've owned a (new!) VPC1, I now have to send it in for repairs for the second time due to keybed defects.

I'm really getting frustrated, and I'm entertaining the idea of selling the VPC1 once it has been repaired since I just can't trust it anymore. I've always planned that my next piano will be a decent acoustic upright (preferably with a silent-feature) and that the VPC1 could fullfill all my needs until then.

I'm not quite sure if I want to invest that kind of money (north of 9000 €) into something like the K300 ATX4 or Aures 2 just yet. I'm also not convinced that I want another digital in the slab form factor, as I'll have to move my piano setup into the living room at some point in the next 12-15 months, since we're planning to have kids and will need the room it's currently in. And my (soon-to-be) wife and I agree that we want an upright/console-style piano in the living room for the looks. No studio monitors or any other clutter.

Looking for alternatives

I guess I'll look into the current higher end console-style digitals (CLP785, CA901, LX708, GP510). These are all within a pice range of 3700€ (CA901) to 4600€ (CLP785) in germany, about half the price (or less) of a K300 ATX4. Does anyone mind sharing their experience with any of these models and how well they play with Pianoteq through their integrated speakers?

And does anyone know if the latest Kawai GF3 keybed has similar issues?

I'm really sorry for the sheer wall of text above, I just had to write it off my chest

in the list of pianos you mentioned both the Casio & Roland have the best accurate midi output in the market and cover the whole range with accuracy  . Both the Roland hybrid Grand and the Casio actions are just incredibly good. The Casio has a little edge for fast response . When it comes to speakers the Roland is the best by a long shot , it exceptional. The Clavinova is a top piano too but not necessarily as accurate with midi output .

Reply by dulistan heman

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Re: Bad experiences with the Kawai VPC1. Looking for alternatives.

I had almost the same issue with my Kawai VPC-1. It worked well after being serviced. It was definitely not a good experience.

YouTube page: Dulistan Heman

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Reply by prizmod

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Re: Bad experiences with the Kawai VPC1. Looking for alternatives.

dulistan heman wrote:

I had almost the same issue with my Kawai VPC-1. It worked well after being serviced. It was definitely not a good experience.

That's a shame. Especially because the action (really the whole concept) of the VPC1 is great.
The unreliable QC just makes it hard to trust that a replacement unit wont have similar or even worse problems.

Considering the VPC1 has been on the market for 10+ years, I'm really surprised Kawai didn't manage to refine their process in manufacturing and testing these actions to the point where such issues are resolved.

Last edited by prizmod (13-02-2024 10:53)

Reply by prizmod

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Re: Bad experiences with the Kawai VPC1. Looking for alternatives.

Pianistically wrote:

in the list of pianos you mentioned both the Casio & Roland have the best accurate midi output in the market and cover the whole range with accuracy  . Both the Roland hybrid Grand and the Casio actions are just incredibly good. The Casio has a little edge for fast response . When it comes to speakers the Roland is the best by a long shot , it exceptional. The Clavinova is a top piano too but not necessarily as accurate with midi output .

That's great to hear. I just saw that the Roland LX708 can be had for 2880€ new including shipping! I'm not likely to use the internal sound engine, so looks, good speakers, action and MIDI implementation are most important to me.
I'd love to avoid having my Focal monitors sitting on the cabinet (especially because the LX708 is quite tall), so I'll have to find a unit on display to see whether I like the speakers with Pianoteq.

The LX706 might also be an option at 2299€, although its sound system is less advanced. If I don't like the sound of the LX708 and need to use my Focals anyways, I could imagine going for the LX706 for its smaller cabinet.

Reply by sigasa

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Re: Bad experiences with the Kawai VPC1. Looking for alternatives.

Check out the new CELVIANO pianos by Casio,

AP-750
AP-550
AP-450

https://youtu.be/yCdH5G8cN9M?si=sD_0D4EhaL3PRV6l

I used to have a VPC1 but had quality control issues involving build and velocity inconsistencies.

I presently own a PX-S5000, a am eyeing up the new CELVIANO range.

Warmest regards,

Chris

https://music.casio.com/intl/electronic...lviano/ap/

Last edited by sigasa (13-02-2024 15:29)

Reply by miiindbullets

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Re: Bad experiences with the Kawai VPC1. Looking for alternatives.

prizmod wrote:
Pianistically wrote:

in the list of pianos you mentioned both the Casio & Roland have the best accurate midi output in the market and cover the whole range with accuracy  . Both the Roland hybrid Grand and the Casio actions are just incredibly good. The Casio has a little edge for fast response . When it comes to speakers the Roland is the best by a long shot , it exceptional. The Clavinova is a top piano too but not necessarily as accurate with midi output .

That's great to hear. I just saw that the Roland LX708 can be had for 2880€ new including shipping! I'm not likely to use the internal sound engine, so looks, good speakers, action and MIDI implementation are most important to me.
I'd love to avoid having my Focal monitors sitting on the cabinet (especially because the LX708 is quite tall), so I'll have to find a unit on display to see whether I like the speakers with Pianoteq.

The LX706 might also be an option at 2299€, although its sound system is less advanced. If I don't like the sound of the LX708 and need to use my Focals anyways, I could imagine going for the LX706 for its smaller cabinet.

Those prices are really low compared to what I'm seeing in the US -- that's wild! Where are you finding those?

I've been really curious about the Grand Hybrid Action on the 706/708.

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Reply by dulistan heman

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Re: Bad experiences with the Kawai VPC1. Looking for alternatives.

prizmod wrote:

That's a shame. Especially because the action (really the whole concept) of the VPC1 is great.
The unreliable QC just makes it hard to trust that a replacement unit wont have similar or even worse problems.

Considering the VPC1 has been on the market for 10+ years, I'm really surprised Kawai didn't manage to refine their process in manufacturing and testing these actions to the point where such issues are resolved.

That's very true. I believe they need to update the VPC-1 with the VPC-2 or anything that has new features, such as a mod wheel, etc. A flat top is appreciated.

I still love the action after the replacement module during reparation in 2020. But if they can make a lighter one, I don't need to buy or borrow another keyboard during the gig.

You do know how heavy this keyboard is. I always refuse to bring mine to gigs, even though they request it. My experience with the Roland Fantom G8 is enough to hurt my back.

YouTube page: Dulistan Heman

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