Topic: Damper. Pedal, then key.

Hello.  I press the pedal and the sound of the damper pushing up from the strings is triggered.  When the pedal remains depressed and I press a key very slowly (to avoid contact of the hammer with the “string”), the sound of the damper pusher for a single key is raised.  But on a correctly adjusted piano mechanics, when the pedal is pressed and the dampers are raised + the key is pressed, there will be no movement of the damper of an individual key along the strings.
On the one hand, Pianoteq processes all incoming messages well.  Maybe the keys themselves shouldn't send messages about raising the damper for an individual key after pressing the pedal?  But Kawai vpc1 sends such events.  And what if the keys and the pedal are different MIDI devices on different channels?  Maybe it makes sense to be able to somehow regulate this moment?
And another, unexpected detail surfaced: the sound of the pedal dampers suddenly ends with a click when you press a key slowly.  You can hear it on the recording.  And sometimes it occurs during live play.  Most likely this is a mistake.  I'm still on Fedor 39.

https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?file=dampfer.mp3
https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?file=dampfer.mid

https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?file=dampfer2.mp3
https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?file=dampfer2.mid
Thank you!

Last edited by scherbakov.al (02-02-2024 13:15)

Re: Damper. Pedal, then key.

scherbakov.al wrote:

Hello.  I press the pedal and the sound of the damper pushing up from the strings is triggered.  When the pedal remains depressed and I press a key very slowly (to avoid contact of the hammer with the “string”), the sound of the damper pusher for a single key is raised.  But on a correctly adjusted piano mechanics, when the pedal is pressed and the dampers are raised + the key is pressed, there will be no movement of the damper of an individual key along the strings.
On the one hand, Pianoteq processes all incoming messages well.  Maybe the keys themselves shouldn't send messages about raising the damper for an individual key after pressing the pedal?  But Kawai vpc1 sends such events.  And what if the keys and the pedal are different MIDI devices on different channels?  Maybe it makes sense to be able to somehow regulate this moment?
And another, unexpected detail surfaced: the sound of the pedal dampers suddenly ends with a click when you press a key slowly.  You can hear it on the recording.  And sometimes it occurs during live play.  Most likely this is a mistake.  I'm still on Fedor 39.
Thank you!

I can replicate the damper sound issue when the damper pedal is already being held down. I can't seem to replicate the second problem you've found. Maybe it's specific to a certain preset? I'm currently using "NY Steinway Model D."

Re: Damper. Pedal, then key.

NathanShirley wrote:

I can't seem to replicate the second problem you've found. Maybe it's specific to a certain preset? I'm currently using "NY Steinway Model D.

Again an issue I can't replicate, sorry.
Because you had chosen NY Steinway Model D I tested with this preset too (with factory defaults).

I hear the harp noise when I push the damper pedal. Releasing a key just triggers a sound like a hammer falling back. For me this is the expected behavior.

Pianoteq Standard
8.2.0/20240115 (Standalone)
Linux

Re: Damper. Pedal, then key.

Thank you scherbakov.al for pointing this bug, added to our todo list.

Re: Damper. Pedal, then key.

Am I having another bug, when I can't replicate the bug that is on the todo list? ;-)

Keeping the damper pedal pushed and releasing a very softly pressed key (for example Note-On velocity 1) I hear just the virtual hammer falling back and the harp silently ringing (from the virtual "knock on wood" of the falling hammer I guess). What am I missing here? Or is the effect so subtle, that it can't be easily heard?

Last edited by groovy (04-02-2024 21:49)

Re: Damper. Pedal, then key.

groovy wrote:

Keeping the damper pedal pushed and releasing a very softly pressed key (for example Note-On velocity 1) I hear just the virtual hammer falling back and the harp silently ringing (from the virtual "knock on wood" of the falling hammer I guess). What am I missing here? Or is the effect so subtle, that it can't be easily heard?

While holding the damper pedal, gently press the key (midi_on vel.1). When you gently press a key and hold down the pedal, the sound of the damper rising at the key appears, which cannot be the case with a live instrument. (If when you press slowly your keyboard sends the midi_on v.1 event)

Philippe Guillaume wrote:

Thank you

Thank you! Philippe.

NathanShirley wrote:

I can't seem to replicate the second problem you've found. Maybe it's specific to a certain preset?

Now I have loaded the standard NY Steinway D classical preset with default settings. So far I am discovering a problem with the sound of the damper pedal cutting out during recording and subsequent midi playback. Or when exporting sound to audio. At the same time, this sometimes happens, sometimes it doesn’t happen. It doesn't seem to happen in live play yet.

Last edited by scherbakov.al (04-02-2024 23:17)

Re: Damper. Pedal, then key.

scherbakov.al wrote:

I am discovering a problem with the sound of the damper pedal cutting out during recording and subsequent midi playback. Or when exporting sound to audio. At the same time, this sometimes happens, sometimes it doesn’t happen. It doesn't seem to happen in live play yet.

This needs some clarification. Are you talking about the sound of the "damper-on string" noise or the persistence of sustained notes?

Also, it's not clear to me what you mean by "during recording and subsequent playback". If it doesnt happen "in live play" I don't see how it would happen 'during recording" which involves live play. Or is it just on playback and export?

Also, if I understand correctly, this is all involving the standalone Pianoteq, not the VSTi, is that right?

Can you post recorded MIDI with a corresponding exported audio file that demonstrates the issue?

Re: Damper. Pedal, then key.

groovy wrote:

Am I having another bug, when I can't replicate the bug that is on the todo list? ;-)

Keeping the damper pedal pushed and releasing a very softly pressed key (for example Note-On velocity 1) I hear just the virtual hammer falling back and the harp silently ringing (from the virtual "knock on wood" of the falling hammer I guess). What am I missing here? Or is the effect so subtle, that it can't be easily heard?

I'm not sure how the OP discovered this, but it seems to me he must have been deliberately experimenting as I can only hear it clearly if both the Damper Noise and Pedal Noise are at or near maximum and the monitoring level is fairly high. I can't imagine being able to hear this in normal playing of the default preset at normal listening levels.

Re: Damper. Pedal, then key.

brundlefly wrote:

This needs some clarification.

So far I have only tested it in the standalone version.  Under Linux.  I specially increased the noise volume of the hammers and dampers.  I used a standard preset with default settings.  I turned on the midi recording, pressed the pedal, slowly pressed the key.  Then, when played back in a midi player, it is discovered that the residual sound of the felt rustling across the strings when the pedal is pressed is cut off when the key is pressed slowly.  This occurs when playing back recorded midi and also when exporting to audio.  There should also be no rustling of the felt of the note being pressed when the pedal is pressed.  Example files are in the first post of this topic.

Re: Damper. Pedal, then key.

scherbakov.al wrote:

...it is discovered that the residual sound of the felt rustling across the strings when the pedal is pressed is cut off when the key is pressed slowly.  This occurs when playing back recorded midi and also when exporting to audio.  There should also be no rustling of the felt of the note being pressed when the pedal is pressed.

I can repro that the key down/up generates damper noise when it shouldn't (because the pedal is already holding the dampers up), but I'm not hearing the pedal ("loom of strings") noise get cut off in any scenario. I'll have another go later.

Re: Damper. Pedal, then key.

scherbakov.al wrote:

I specially increased the noise volume of the hammers and dampers.  I used a standard preset with default settings.

Okay, that's another story. You used a modified factory preset (in other words not a read-only preset from disk). I can hear it now when I max out Damper Noise (0 -> +24 dB) and Pedal Noise (0 -> +24 dB) and press a single note (Note 60, C4)

The characteristic of my pedal is a bit different from yours probably, because it has three fixed levels and not two levels as in so called "Half-Pedaling". The pedal noise is generated three times at level 38, 74 and 127. I remember that we had a discussion in another thread about the pros and cons of half, one-third and pseudo-continuous pedaling. A perfect solution does not exist currently if I remember correctly.

And yes, the odd thing is the recorded midifile behaves differently to live play (?!). On the recording the harp stops ringing when Note On velocity 1 arrives. My guess is just the single note is undamped in that moment - which shouldn't.

Re: Damper. Pedal, then key.

It's quite interesting to play when the keyboard sends a pre-message midi_On v.1 (damper raise and open string) before the impact speed message. In my homemade keyboard, the sensors that process the "midi_Off<<>>midi_On v.1" events are not yet very carefully adjusted and some of the keys send the midi_On v.1 event an instant before the midi_On v.xx.xx event.
This has a rather interesting effect...
Or might this be unnecessary? Or does midi_On v.xx already contain this process?

Last edited by scherbakov.al (10-02-2024 20:03)

Re: Damper. Pedal, then key.

scherbakov.al wrote:

It's quite interesting to play when the keyboard sends a pre-message midi_On v.1 (damper raise and open string) before the impact speed message. In my homemade keyboard, the sensors that process the "midi_Off<<>>midi_On v.1" events are not yet very carefully adjusted and some of the keys send the midi_On v.1 event an instant before the midi_On v.xx.xx event.
This has a rather interesting effect...
Or might this be unnecessary? Or does midi_On v.xx already contain this process?

I would not expect this to make any difference in Pianoteq because its programming is presumably already instructing the model to undamp the string  before hammering it. And it doesn't hammer the string at velocity=1 so the attack generated by the second Note On should sound the same either way.

Also, I don't know what you've engineered into your keyboard, but my understanding of a typical triple-sensor implementation is that the middle sensor alone doesn't cause any message to be generated; it's just a reference point for resetting and measuring the velocity of a repetition. You should only get one Note On message from the first press of the key.

Re: Damper. Pedal, then key.

scherbakov.al wrote:

In my homemade keyboard, the sensors that process the "midi_Off<<>>midi_On v.1" events are not yet very carefully adjusted and some of the keys send the midi_On v.1 event an instant before the midi_On v.xx.xx event.

I don't comprehend. Maybe I'm not the only one, so I'm asking. What is "midi_On v.1" in your syntax?

Note On, velocity 1, which Note?

And "midi_On v.xx.xx"?

Please decrypt.

Re: Damper. Pedal, then key.

groovy wrote:

What is "midi_On v.1" in your syntax?

Note On, velocity 1, which Note?

And "midi_On v.xx.xx"?

I interpreted him to be saying his self-designed triple-sensor controller sends two Note On events for each full (from the top) key press; one at velocity=1 as the key passes the middle sensor, and the second with velocity based conventionally on the transit time between the middle and bottom sensor. Becasue of the way Pianoteq is programmed, the first Note On will only release the damper, and the second will only hammer the string.The higher the middle sensor, the longer the time between damper release and hammer blow.

Re: Damper. Pedal, then key.

groovy wrote:

What is "midi_On v.1" in your syntax?
Note On, velocity 1, which Note?
And "midi_On v.xx.xx"?

By "midi_On v.1" I mean the midi_On event with velocity 1 for any note that is listened to within the framework of this topic (v.1 = velocity 1.). "midi_On v.xx.xx" = midi_On event at any speed other than 0 and 1. "xx.xx" implies the value "some velocity". (presence of decimals implies hi-res, but for the purposes of this topic it does not matter )

brundlefly wrote:

..his self-designed triple-sensor controller sends two Note On events for each full (from the top) key press; one at velocity=1 as the key passes the middle sensor, and the second with velocity based conventionally on the transit time between the middle and bottom sensor..

Yes. But I ended up with 4 sensors. Two sensors are used to measure the hammer's flight speed. And two sensors above the key that report that the key is either in an area with a raised damper, or in an area with a damper parked on a string. Until the second sensors are adjusted properly, their events are not filtered against the hammer sensors and because of this, the triggering of these sensors causes midi_On messages to be sent at speed 1 a little before or a little after the midi_On events with data about the speed of the hammer.

Here are a couple of example files. Here the notes F4, G4 and B4 have damper pre-raise. A4 - later:

https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?file=dampfer3.mid
https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?file=dampfer3.mp3

Here the notes E5 and F5 have damper pre-raise. G5 and A5 - later:

https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?file=dampfer4.mid
https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?file=dampfer4.mp3

In a real piano, the string is released from the damper before the hammer strikes. Removing the damper may cause the string to begin some slight movement and vibration. Also, the string may have time to slightly absorb some vibrations from other previously played and sounded notes. And maybe such a preliminary event of damper lifting could make sense in the simulation? But most likely other keyboards do not support this behavior.

But my keyboard allows me to play notes with the damper muted:

https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?file=dampfer5.mid
https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?file=dampfer5.mp3
(sensor is positioned completely incorrectly. Too deep. Adjustment required)

I can also get quite realistic behavior and sound from Pianotek from a sharp strike on a key that I hold so that the key is not pressed more than half of its stroke, and the hammer from a sharp strike on the key jumps and hits the “string”. In this case, the damper is not raised, there is a blow to the string, and the quickly damped sound from the parked damper is realistic.

Last edited by scherbakov.al (16-02-2024 11:09)