Topic by kennethpiano

  • Avatar
  • kennethpiano
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 21-11-2022
  • Posts: 15

Topic: How to shorten the sustain length?

I heard piano 100 or 200 years ago, the sustain duration is not as long as modern pianos.

So that's why in the old days, the piano player may be able to get away of stepping on the sustain pedal for the whole playing, while nowadays, the player may need to step and release it from time to time. (depends on whether the new notes "conflict" with the existing notes).

It is also said that, that's why Moonlight Sonata 1st Movement, when played with Beethoven's instruction "Step on sustain pedal for the whole playing" may apply long time ago but may need to be different nowadays.

So for Pianoteq (8.0), if I want to make the sustain last not as long, for example, for K2 Basic, such as lasting 1 second or 2 seconds and it would become not quite audible, then how can it be done?  Can it be set for all pianos vs per one particular piano?

Last edited by kennethpiano (19-12-2023 04:59)

Reply by tmyoung

  • Avatar
  • tmyoung
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: USA
  • Registered: 20-09-2012
  • Posts: 564

Re: How to shorten the sustain length?

kennethpiano wrote:

I heard piano 100 or 200 years ago, the sustain duration is not as long as modern pianos.

So that's why in the old days, the piano player may be able to get away of stepping on the sustain pedal for the whole playing, while nowadays, the player may need to step and release it from time to time. (depends on whether the new notes "conflict" with the existing notes).

Yes, though it depends on tradition.  In the Old Russian School (pre-Prokofiev), for example, the pedal was always kept down.  Vadim Monastyrski has an in-depth lecture on the subject here (with subtitles): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y29QqDmxjj8

kennethpiano wrote:

It is also said that, that's why Moonlight Sonata 1st Movement, when played with Beethoven's instruction "Step on sustain pedal for the whole playing" may apply long time ago but may need to be different nowadays.

So for Pianoteq (8.0), if I want to make the sustain last not as long, for example, for K2 Basic, such as lasting 1 second or 2 seconds and it would become not quite audible, then how can it be done?  Can it be set for all pianos vs per one particular piano?

Under "Action" settings in the main window (in all editions of PTQ) reduce "Damper Duration."  Also, historically, the last damper was often on a different note than it is now.  I'd further recommend looking at the KiVR, Karsten, and Kremsegg collections as PTQ does a nice job in handling those historical instruments which might give you additional settings ideas for recreating piano sounds.  Parameter freeze can be used between those historical models and the K2 to automatically copy settings.

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/2xHiPcCsm29R12HX4eXd4J
Pianoteq Studio & Organteq
Casio GP300 & Custom organ console

tmyoung's Website

Reply by kennethpiano

  • Avatar
  • kennethpiano
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 21-11-2022
  • Posts: 15

Re: How to shorten the sustain length?

tmyoung wrote:

Under "Action" settings in the main window (in all editions of PTQ) reduce "Damper Duration."  Also, historically, the last damper was often on a different note than it is now.

Are you sure it is Damping Duration? It is still pretty long if I move it to the furthest left.

Is that the limitation of how short it can be? Being generated by algorithm, I'd think it can be made so that after 1 or 2 seconds, it is close to inaudible.

Last edited by kennethpiano (19-12-2023 15:02)

Reply by dv

  • Avatar
  • dv
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 01-11-2021
  • Posts: 344

Re: How to shorten the sustain length?

kennethpiano wrote:

Are you sure it is Damping Duration? It is still pretty long if I move it to the further left.

Is that the limitation of how short it can be? Being generated by algorithm, I'd think it can be made so that after 1 or 2 seconds, it is close to inaudible.

I believe that's a different thing. I think what you are looking for is available in the Standard and above versions only (because you want to seriously change the sound, so not available in the Stage version -- try a demo if you don't have a suitable version).

It's in the top-right panel: Design -> Soundboard -> Impedence. Reduce it as much as you want. From a few tests I've done, it reduces the duration of the sound compared to default about 5x. The actual duration of the sound cannot be measured in "seconds" because the bass is always going to be much longer duration than the treble (as it is in an acoustic instrument)

Where do I find a list of all posts I upvoted? :(

Reply by kennethpiano

  • Avatar
  • kennethpiano
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 21-11-2022
  • Posts: 15

Re: How to shorten the sustain length?

dv wrote:

It's in the top-right panel: Design -> Soundboard -> Impedence. Reduce it as much as you want. From a few tests I've done, it reduces the duration of the sound compared to default about 5x. The actual duration of the sound cannot be measured in "seconds" because the bass is always going to be much longer duration than the treble (as it is in an acoustic instrument)

Thanks, I have just tried it. It seems if I move the Impedence to the left either by 1/8 or 1/4 of the bar length, then the effect can be achieved (making it shorter).

I can't move it all the way to the left, without making it sound like a hammering of the string, which is quite abrupt and that may not work with playing notes softly.

Reply by dv

  • Avatar
  • dv
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 01-11-2021
  • Posts: 344

Re: How to shorten the sustain length?

kennethpiano wrote:

I can't move it all the way to the left, without making it sound like a hammering of the string, which is quite abrupt and that may not work with playing notes softly.

I see what you mean. You can try in the voicing (central) section, to reduce the hammer noise and hammer hardness, but (I've just tried) even reducing them to zero it remains a bit of that thumping. Even starting from a felted piano has that problem.

However, you can solve that by softening *so slightly* the attack envelope. It must be very slightly otherwise you will end with something like a violin rather than a piano, but I think you can do it. Not sure if your version of Pianoteq allows that, I have the Pro version and I can do that in the note edit (which I open from top right menu)

HTH

Where do I find a list of all posts I upvoted? :(

Reply by tmyoung

  • Avatar
  • tmyoung
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: USA
  • Registered: 20-09-2012
  • Posts: 564

Re: How to shorten the sustain length?

kennethpiano wrote:
tmyoung wrote:

Under "Action" settings in the main window (in all editions of PTQ) reduce "Damper Duration."  Also, historically, the last damper was often on a different note than it is now.

Are you sure it is Damping Duration? It is still pretty long if I move it to the furthest left.

Is that the limitation of how short it can be? Being generated by algorithm, I'd think it can be made so that after 1 or 2 seconds, it is close to inaudible.

Not knowing you had Standard, I went with the setting I knew was in all versions.  Damper Duration controls how quickly the damper comes down onto the strings but doesn't necessarily decrease the tail of the original damping.  Like dv said, those kinds of settings are in Standard/Pro under Soundboard.

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/2xHiPcCsm29R12HX4eXd4J
Pianoteq Studio & Organteq
Casio GP300 & Custom organ console

tmyoung's Website

Reply by kennethpiano

  • Avatar
  • kennethpiano
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 21-11-2022
  • Posts: 15

Re: How to shorten the sustain length?

tmyoung wrote:

Not knowing you had Standard, I went with the setting I knew was in all versions.

Wait, I actually have the Studio version (the version that includes everything).

It is a bit of a long story too... I got the Pro version at first, for $N plus two more pianos, and then after 2 weeks, there was the Thanksgiving sales, and it seemed like I could add a little bit money to get the Studio version. So I email to ask if I can do that since it was 2 weeks only. But they kind of want me to add the amount of money that would add up to the full price of Studio without any discount whatsoever.  I had to find the founder of the company and finally have the agreement to give me $100 discount from the regular full price, but is less discount than if I just wait for the Thanksgiving sales.

Reply by dv

  • Avatar
  • dv
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 01-11-2021
  • Posts: 344

Re: How to shorten the sustain length?

kennethpiano wrote:

Wait, I actually have the Studio version (the version that includes everything).

Great so you can indeed edit the attack envelope as I described. Did you try it?

Where do I find a list of all posts I upvoted? :(

Reply by kennethpiano

  • Avatar
  • kennethpiano
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 21-11-2022
  • Posts: 15

Re: How to shorten the sustain length?

dv wrote:
kennethpiano wrote:

I can't move it all the way to the left, without making it sound like a hammering of the string, which is quite abrupt and that may not work with playing notes softly.

I see what you mean. You can try in the voicing (central) section, to reduce the hammer noise and hammer hardness, but (I've just tried) even reducing them to zero it remains a bit of that thumping. Even starting from a felted piano has that problem.

However, you can solve that by softening *so slightly* the attack envelope. It must be very slightly otherwise you will end with something like a violin rather than a piano, but I think you can do it. Not sure if your version of Pianoteq allows that, I have the Pro version and I can do that in the note edit (which I open from top right menu)

HTH

I tried the Voicing for hammer noise and the top hammer hardness (everything to the lowest), and it sounds like a Harpsichord...  (but maybe a Harpsichord is what a piano sounds like 200 years ago)

You mentioned "you can solve that by softening *so slightly* the attack envelope"... so what do I do exactly?  Is it by going to Note Edit and click "Smooth"?

So far, I found the most effective way to slide the impedance to the left for about 25% of its length. (that's for K2. If it is for Bluthner, then even 12% is enough. 25% will be too much).

Last edited by kennethpiano (20-12-2023 17:29)

Reply by dv

  • Avatar
  • dv
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 01-11-2021
  • Posts: 344

Re: How to shorten the sustain length?

kennethpiano wrote:

You mentioned "you can solve that by softening *so slightly* the attack envelope"... so what do I do exactly?  Is it by going to Note Edit and click "Smooth"?

Go to note edit, click "Attack envelope" and increase the default value. To start you can change (say) middle C and when you are satisfied you try another note, perhaps an octave up or down and the interface will use intermediate values in between. If you think the same value is sufficient everywhere, I think you can edit the lowest and highest notes, make them equal and play with the GUI to make everything the same.

I *think* this is what you are looking for (but I might be wrong).

Where do I find a list of all posts I upvoted? :(

Reply by brundlefly

  • Avatar
  • brundlefly
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 31-03-2022
  • Posts: 221

Re: How to shorten the sustain length?

Try setting the Pedal curve to reach a maximum less than 127 so the dampers remain partially applied. Somewhere around 100 will yield a meaningful sustain effect without becoming overwhelming, depending on the material.