Topic: Attempt to create a midi controller for the mechanics of the piano.

https://youtu.be/AOUDbS6i6HA

Some time ago, Kawai and Yamaha released electronic grand pianos with the same mechanics as a real grand piano. I am very impressed with this! I have a good Kawai VPC1 tool. This is a decent instrument, but as practice shows, there are no simplified alternatives to the real mechanics of the piano. This mechanic has been developed and improved over many decades. It is difficult to add or remove anything to it without violating the convenience and comfort of performance. Digital instrument keyboards have a lot of problems compared to a real keyboard. This:
- the weight of the key is the same, but the acceleration gradient when pressed is radically different.
-there is no catching of the hammer by the fenger and this requires holding down the pressed key with force. You must support the weight of the malleus with your finger, keeping it close to the bottom. In a live instrument, holding down a key does not require much effort. From this you can get problems with your hands, your fingers get tired more. Lost "ease" of the game.
- there is no mechanism of double rehearsal. It facilitates and speeds up repeated pressing. Allows you to very "creatively" control the position of the hammer, "play" with it.
- in digital instruments, the hammer most often strikes rubber contacts at the end of the path (like contacts in remote controls from a television), this makes the sensations cottony.
- on the axis, rotation occurs most often between plastic in silicone and metal, unlike felt and metal in real.
In general, numeric keyboards do not allow you to play thinly and easily. But Kawai and Yamaha impressed with their models! But the price!! Completely unbearable for me.
Subsequently, the Cybrid DIY project arose, which showed that it was possible to do something similar on your own. And I also decided to try to do something similar. I started learning programming, started learning microcontrollers and a bit of electronics. Now I was able to build a test sample on a breadboard. As a controller, I chose an inexpensive STM32F411 microcontroller. I use the same optical sensors to get information from the hammer. I use shift registers to "multiply" the number of inputs. I was able to achieve scanning speed of the whole keyboard in the range of 3-6us. So far, there are only sensors for the midi-on event, but midi-off will be added soon. I have ordered some test pcb with smd parts and they are on the way. A test "almost" working sample will soon be assembled. It's very exciting and a lot of fun! I hope everything works out!

Re: Attempt to create a midi controller for the mechanics of the piano.

So you're doing comparators with potentiometers?

If you haven't already, see:

https://pianoclack.com/forum/d/276-buil...lectronics

https://pianoclack.com/forum/d/243-diy-piano-sensors

Also, have you considered using a system like https://us.misumi-ec.com/vona2/detail/110302684530/ instead of drilling hardware store parts?

Where do I find a list of all posts I upvoted? :(

Re: Attempt to create a midi controller for the mechanics of the piano.

Nice progress. See https://vimeo.com/669038601 and https://github.com/davidedelvento/Mybrid

Where do I find a list of all posts I upvoted? :(

Re: Attempt to create a midi controller for the mechanics of the piano.

Robert Estrin has a midi controller based on an acoustic grand piano action.

https://youtu.be/Rh0pcNJj_Is

Kawai MP11SE / Pianoteq Pro Studio Bundle v7.5.2 (includes every Pianoteq instrument - 21 currently)

Re: Attempt to create a midi controller for the mechanics of the piano.

Thanks for the links and the aluminum rail tip! I'm following the threads on this new site.

Re: Attempt to create a midi controller for the mechanics of the piano.

Gradually progressing...

https://youtu.be/4DQ-6GJMTAU

Re: Attempt to create a midi controller for the mechanics of the piano.

I redid it so that the sensors, comparators and registers are located on the same board. And it works! It brings a lot of joy! I continue, despite the difficulties and limitations with the production of printed circuit boards for us...

https://youtu.be/tfXYoXhf02k

Re: Attempt to create a midi controller for the mechanics of the piano.

scherbakov.al wrote:

I redid it so that the sensors, comparators and registers are located on the same board. And it works! It brings a lot of joy! I continue, despite the difficulties and limitations with the production of printed circuit boards for us...

Very nice! Keep us posted!

Where do I find a list of all posts I upvoted? :(

Re: Attempt to create a midi controller for the mechanics of the piano.

Great and interesting project scherbakov.al

I wonder, for fun (and to get you past your post #666 haha) a question..

Having done so much good work by now on this, just imagining if you wanted to make a smaller form factor (like 20% smaller key size), with all available parts you can find, would it be possible to do?

Ref; https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=9316

All by best to you.

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: Attempt to create a midi controller for the mechanics of the piano.

Qexl wrote:

Having done so much good work by now on this, just imagining if you wanted to make a smaller form factor (like 20% smaller key size), with all available parts you can find, would it be possible to do?

I consider this myself so let me give my answer. I believe the CNY70 sensor is too large for narrow keys (I actually think it's too large for regular keys too, but I digress). In fact for my project I plan to use QRE1113 or EAITRCA6 which are basically identical to CNY70 and much, much smaller, making all the sensor-hammer alignments much easier. With either of these sensors, a narrow keyboard would be a piece of cake.... IF you can find a narrow keyboard. In fact, all these projects are based on the ease and inexpensive availability of (grand) piano action/keyboards from old instruments. There is no similar availability of narrow keys which are custom made and quite expensive! The keyboard alone, without the action, costs more than most digital pianos, around the same of commercial hybrid pianos, and even more than the lowest tier of acoustic upright and baby grands! I am not criticizing the guy who makes this, it's quite an endeavor, however not having the economy of scale of larger manufacturing makes this a really tiny niche product.

Where do I find a list of all posts I upvoted? :(

Re: Attempt to create a midi controller for the mechanics of the piano.

Qexl wrote:

Great and interesting project scherbakov.al
I wonder, for fun (and to get you past your post #666 haha) a question..

Hehe ... really such a figure - 666)
Of course, in our time, almost everything is possible, at least a lot. But it rests on time, money, desire, expediency, demand or a complex of all this and something else .. I could not have done a smaller mechanic (as well as a normal one). It's too complicated for me yet and/or not worth the effort yet. Although there are thoughts that it is possible, some inexpensive Chinese CNC milling machine could turn all the necessary parts out of wood (plastic, concrete)))) in some time). It is possible that with sufficient accuracy and speed. In this case, the size can be made any. But! Piano building has been developing for many decades. And this state-of-the-art piano mechanism is a multi-faceted compromise for the comfort of the performer. For example, I really like big pianos with long hammers. It's really fun to play them. It's a very pleasant feeling. Therefore, I do not believe that the mechanics can be reduced in depth and height without distorting the properties in sensations that grand pianos have. But in terms of keyboard width and key width - why not - it could be much more comfortable for people with compact hands and slender fingers. And the electronic part is still possible to reduce.

Re: Attempt to create a midi controller for the mechanics of the piano.

With QRE1113 you can make the key width 4mm)

Re: Attempt to create a midi controller for the mechanics of the piano.

scherbakov.al wrote:

With QRE1113 you can make the key width 4mm)

You are probably joking, but for others reading this seriously, no you can't, like you can't make the key width 8mm with the CNY70.

There are mechanical clearances needed not to get the keys stick with each other. There are optical clearance you need to reduce cross-talk, otherwise the velocity measurement of one key will be tainted by the position and movement of the adjacent key/sensor. There are assembly tolerance you need to keep in mind, especially because this will be hand assembled and not high-precision industrial things... And more.

So the smaller the sensors, the easier would be for these tolerances to be met.

Where do I find a list of all posts I upvoted? :(

Re: Attempt to create a midi controller for the mechanics of the piano.

Fantastic to read - thanks to you scherby! And now you're free of dread 666 Really madly impressed by your fine project.

Super interesting @dv - good luck with your project also

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: Attempt to create a midi controller for the mechanics of the piano.

A certain stage has been passed and the keyboard starts playing.  There are still problems and bugs, but overall I am happy with this device!

https://youtu.be/4QYlIZP8Dl4?si=zg10ktWiwg2xpzOO