Controllers: Yamaha GranTouch, anyone?

I did never played Grand Touch (best touch ever made).

     I need to set my Roland F-90 sensibility to heavy adjust, otherwise I get 127 velocity (maximun FFF) a bit too easily.
     It can't be corrected only by Pianoteq velocity curves graphic, since it's the Roland F-90 that send the Maximun strike (FFF) too easily when in mediun or light sensibility adjusts.
     Combining the right sensibility adjust of the controller or digital piano, with the velocity curves graphic on Pianoteq, is the best way to achieve the desired touching response.

    There is always natural limitation of contorller's Dynamic Range. My controller, for example, have a limit even in heavy adjust. So if I play very strong strike and get FFF (127 value), and try a stronger strike than that, I will get the same 127. 

    If there are difference on several famous controller and digital piano brands, perhaps Pianoteq could make something about.  Here my sugestion:

    What about analyze 30 major brands and models, and builted velocity curves adjust sets for each one on Pianoteq?  And a small text instrunction, like let the sensibility on the controller set to heavy or mediun to be right to the Pianoteq velocity adjust created.

    Once Pianoteq have the best velocity curves adjust, that allows to create the graphic we wish, I believe it's time to use it to create a small library of velocity curve adjusts for given brands and models. 

    There will be always the limitation of Dynamic Range of your controller, but it can help to get closer to a given touch a person is familiarized to.

i recently bought the yamaha GT2 and for the fun of it I yesterday connected it to pianoteq (trial version) through a USB external soundcard (Tascam US-144). After I figured out the right soundcard settings (latency issues!) this combination worked great. I had a MIDI cable going from the GT2 (MIDI OUT) into the soundcard (MIDI IN), and L+R audio cables going from the LINE OUT on the card back to GT2 (into AUX IN ports)

Although it generates very decent sonic picture, the sound generating computer technology in GT2 (including the built-in Yamaha CFIIIS concert grand sampled voices) is 11 years old. yamaha, where is GT3 or whatever you may call it??

Combining the GT2's double-escapement keyboard action with the pianoteq-generated sound is definitely worth trying, however, one ends up having all these cables between the GT2 and sound card/computer... + one needs a computer running... + one needs to worry about the right soundcard settings (low latency needed). The almost perfect illusion of the GT2 being an acoustic baby grand is somewhat lost through this additional chunk of electronics.

Does anybody else have experience with GT2 and pianoteq or other virtual pianos?

I don't know , what U need to hear from me , ... Yes I use GT2 , but I'm not using GT2 own sounds , I play only pianoteq thru GT2 speakers , and use GT2 like midi keyboard controller . Sounds very good , and realistic , before I had problem to connect from PC to GT2 audio signal , because AUX inputs too much sensitive , I "repair" GT2 , open inside and make OP amplifier less sensitive , now it's ok, I win signal to noise parameter , it become better, less noisy . To do it for me was necessary , because , additionally I use Bose L1 speakers pair , when I send layered sounds to Bose ( for egz, strings , pads etc. ) , Pianoteq sound go to GT2 , from these setup I have natural ensemble sound , because if I will send thru GT2 speakers , other layered sounds , like strings ... , it looks not natural  , - from piano must go piano sound , but not pads , drums strings or others . Oh yes , if I use ambient processing for pianoteq , I send to GT2 speakers dry pianoteq sound , and to bose L2 pair speakers I send ambients, effect for pianoteq only . Because one Bose speaker have 180 angle sound response , from two speakers I have very good full of ambient room . I'm not using Pianoteq own reverbs , I send VST reverbs from sound card ( effect\wet sound only ) to Bose speakers . Other synth or sampled sounds I send thru Bose , not thru GT2 . GT2 keyboard is most natural keyboard , because all "mechanics" inside are real piano mechanics . Another good key board controller for pianoteq is KAWAI MP8II , this is good keyboard and good key-balanced in weight , it means  keys are not only feels, like piano , but they are more heavy in lows , and more light in highs, like on natural acoustic piano .
I'm sorry for my english , again , but I hope U understand me , what I want to say , dear friends ...

If U asking questions like this : ..." There are quite affordable quality midicontrollers with good velocity sensibility, like M-Audio Keystation Pro 88, with hammer action. They are only 400 dollar. ..." - it means U are not piano player . With this M-Audio U will spoil Your hands until become musician , my friends had this Sh.... , and after few days sold , twice less price , because nobody needs to have not useable midi controllers , which after 1 year using keys of these kind keyboard become like waves in the ocean . But ... if U are   playing 2 hours per week on this keyboard , and U enjoy  how nice it looks in your home studio this kind of controllers it's O.K. I know that in most countries people first look , how it looks , how much it cost , after what is profit from that and last how U feel Yourself. When U are playing per day 8-10 hours , needs to have good instrument , good feeling instrument , after U have feedback  between Your ears - mind and hands , here is secret of good playing , hearing and creating something good , but not between $400 and nice looking ,  here U will find only image or immitation , of real quality of feel , sound & creation .
Not forget , that there is no miracles like  " ..quite affordable quality midicontrollers ... for only 400 dollar ..." U can ask same , why to play Stainway Grand Piano ( for & 200000 if U can play Upright Puiano for 30000 , what is different ... answer,- maybe U never tried this, try , close Your eyes and listen carefully , if U not hear different between them  , ok buy Yamaha PSR series keyboards , and enjoy .... few weeks .
On yamaha GT2 Midi controllers are laser beams , On other more expencive Midi controllers there are more MIDI velocity steps , this is big different from cheap controllers , because some of them have velocity , for egz only 3 steps , for egz. like  p - 53 . f - 80 , ff - 127 , this only immitation of velocities , but not real velo in 127 steps ... and some musicians claime , that 127 is not enough , but others not hear different between 3 steps velocity and 127 ... What to say .... sorry .....
First impression from keyboard this is good or not is , that when U are playing , after some time U not feel bored , and U always need to play . That is with Pianoteq , U are playing only piano and not bored , if U have a good quality controller , again Your hands not be tired ,  it's same like to find what different between cheap , and expencive car or gum and real women , try .... and U like it ....

Hi Voxas, thanks for you insight

I never played in Keystation 88 Pro. Just got some reviews on web. I play in a Roland F-90, 88 keys progressive hammer action digital piano.

   Bu I think would be very interesting to develope a Midi controler using real piano actions and keyboard.  I hope someone develope good sensor for affordable price.

I was aware about Grand Touch have real hammers, and the expensiveness. But I refer about a simple Piano keyboard with sensor, just to be used as conrollers.

   Well, if the sensor of Roland digital pianos could be placed in a piano actions I would be happy.

     I was trying to get contact with a piano manufaturar to try convince them to create a midi controller using real piano actions. I really believe it's possible to make a affordable model with great touch feeling.

       What exactly do you mean by balancedin weight? Is it about trebble be less heavy than bass? My Roland have some difference about heavy from bass and trebble.
     
     Is after-touch the same as scapments, reffering about technical nomenclature for digital pianos?

     Thank you for the links and all informations.

Hi Voxas, congrats, it looks great!
i have a Grantouch GT1 and would love to do the same.

Did you plug the 4 built-in speakers directly to your soundcard, without using their electronics?

I plan to put a mini-pc inside my GT1, what soundcard would you recommend?

For the MIDI interface, did you use the external one or plugged somewhere on the Grantouch motherboard?

Thanks!
Arnaud

I would also be interested in the answer to that question.  I have used a Yamaha GT2 for about 20 years.  It needed a new controller at one stage at a cost of about $400, but the action has remained in perfect condition.  The native Yamaha sound as it was then lacked a bit of character and when I discovered Pianoteq only a few years ago I connected the Grantouch MIDI to a laptop running Pianoteq and the output to the Grantouch Aux In with the internal volume turned down so the speakers carried only the Pianoteq sound.  The sound was rather “hollow” or “nasal”, quite unpleasant to listen to.  I used a low priced DAT at first and then replaced that with an RME ADI-2.  The sound through the Grantouch speakers is still not much better.  I have read the posts from Voxas, who is clearly something of an expert and has achieved a much better outcome. 

I now find that a very much better experience is listening to the Grantouch and Pianoteq sound together, either with Pianoteq through the Grantouch speakers, or through another good quality sound system.  I have explored all the tweaks that I can find on Pianoteq but to no avail.  I have written about this boringly on another thread and received kind and helpful advice, but the problem remains.

I use Sennheiser HD599 headphones and play classical music daily, often for hours as I am now retired.  The Yamaha wooden keyboard is fantastic with a real grand piano touch and sensitivity.  The setup can all be concealed under the Grantouch lid using a laptop that folds out flat.  It is a total grand piano experience with headphones, or with the combined sounds of Grantouch and Pianoteq, but I would certainly like to get the Pianoteq speaker sound that others seem to be able to get.

I have used a Yamaha Grantouch GT2 with Pianoteq for the past 8 years. I find it to be a very expressive and excellent playing experience! For comparisons, over the years I had tried other keyboard controllers, such as the Komplete Kontrol S88 (1st Gen, Fatar-based keybed), but I find that it is significantly less satisfying, in terms of touch, compared to the Grantouch GT2. I can't get "into" the playing experience as easily.

In terms of sound, I initially tried routing the Pianoteq sound back to the Grantouch GT2 speakers, while it sounded quite thin and not satisfactory, it did added some feeling of vibration and feedback to back to the keys (then to my fingers) while I played, which I considered an important component of the piano playing experience, which will be missing if I routed the sound to an external speaker system.

The next step I tried was to "upgrade" the Grantouch GT2 speakers, and I ended up making speaker cabinets with the same dimensions to the original Grantouch GT2 speakers, but using a higher quality speaker driver (Jordan JX92s). It significantly improved the sound, but it is still not totally satisfying to me.

So I ended up routing the sound to both an external sound system, as well as back to the Grantouch GT2. With this, the overall sound quality is excellent, and I get some vibration and feedback from the piano to my hand as I played. I am quite satisfied with this setup, but I am not sure whether it is better than a good acoustic grand piano. Sometimes I still find the sound a bit too "hard". But I can say that there were times when I played an acoustic grand piano in different settings, where I thought "this piano is really bad, I much prefer to go back home and play Pianoteq controlled by the Yamaha Grantouch GT2!"

With respect to the velocity curve, I find that I have to press really, really hard to get 127 (almost impossible), and really, really soft to get 0. So I adjusted the velocity curve to "map" to 127 earlier.

My two cents...