Topic: Latency (min 512) with KDP-120, AMD Ryzen 5 3300, 16GB, SMSL DAC/AMP

Hello members,

I have lateny issues and don´t know which part of my chain is accountable.

I have the KDP-120, a 1 year old Gaming Laptop with AMD Ryzen 5 3300, 16 GB RAM and a S.M.S.L. C200 DAC/AMP Combo. I chose the SMSL because it has a superb measured DAC, a 2.6 Watt headphone amp, a remote and both balacned and unbalanced ouput. For 175 Euro.

If I go below 512 samples I get distortion like hell playing through direct driver and the USB driver for the SMSL. I need at least 256 to feel comfortabel. Better 128.

So I don´t know who to blame. If it is the DAC/AMP I´d like recommendations to replace it. The Scarlets have ok DAC but - headphone out and only balanced out, the unbalanced would be needed for a dedicated headphone amp.

I haven´t tried the tips for optimising windows yet, will do at the weekend.

Thanks in advance, Sebastiaan.

Re: Latency (min 512) with KDP-120, AMD Ryzen 5 3300, 16GB, SMSL DAC/AMP

Sebastiaan wrote:

Hello members,

I have lateny issues and don´t know which part of my chain is accountable.

I have the KDP-120, a 1 year old Gaming Laptop with AMD Ryzen 5 3300, 16 GB RAM and a S.M.S.L. C200 DAC/AMP Combo. I chose the SMSL because it has a superb measured DAC, a 2.6 Watt headphone amp, a remote and both balacned and unbalanced ouput. For 175 Euro.

If I go below 512 samples I get distortion like hell playing through direct driver and the USB driver for the SMSL. I need at least 256 to feel comfortabel. Better 128.

So I don´t know who to blame. If it is the DAC/AMP I´d like recommendations to replace it. The Scarlets have ok DAC but - headphone out and only balanced out, the unbalanced would be needed for a dedicated headphone amp.

I haven´t tried the tips for optimising windows yet, will do at the weekend.

Thanks in advance, Sebastiaan.

The SMSL C200 does indeed look like a nice device for the price. However, as far as I can tell, it is mainly marketed for audiophile type use (home hi-fi, or headphone listening to recorded sources). I understand that market well, and the users don't care about latency. So the DACs that are sold for that purpose tend to use algorithms that take longer. Who cares if your music is playing 200 ms behind--a hi-fi user will never complain. I looked for specs on the latency of the SMSL and couldn't easily find them. But I know that the hi-fi DACs I own have terrible latency and are not usable for piano playing.

By contrast, an audio interface (such as the Focusrite Scarlett series that I use, and many others) make latency a top priority. Latency on the Scarlett series is around 5-10ms (that doesn't mean your total latency is that low--since it is just one part). A audio interface is in the same price range as your SMSL, and also contains a very good headphone amp and DAC. I doubt that your keyboard and computer are to blame--unless you are perhaps trying to use wireless midi or something. That's why I'd bet that the SMSL is the problem.

Re: Latency (min 512) with KDP-120, AMD Ryzen 5 3300, 16GB, SMSL DAC/AMP

As a follow-up--I did see something about the SMSL having a gaming mode, or driver. I assume gamers do care about latency, and that driver may be something to look into.

Re: Latency (min 512) with KDP-120, AMD Ryzen 5 3300, 16GB, SMSL DAC/AMP

Thanks. I will try out a Scarlet. But the headphone out of those devices isn´t really good. Maybe it´s chenged for the 4th Gen.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru...iew.10187/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru...iew.15757/

The thing aout the M4 is, it costs 300 Euro in Europe. But maybe that  is what I´m going to try.

How does the sample rate of 512 relate to the audio interface? Is it a driver issue?

Last edited by Sebastiaan (20-10-2023 05:35)

Re: Latency (min 512) with KDP-120, AMD Ryzen 5 3300, 16GB, SMSL DAC/AMP

Sebastiaan wrote:

Thanks. I will try out a Scarlet. But the headphone out of those devices isn´t really good. Maybe it´s chenged for the 4th Gen.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru...iew.10187/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru...iew.15757/

The thing aout the M4 is, it costs 300 Euro in Europe. But maybe that  is what I´m going to try.

How does the sample rate of 512 relate to the audio interface? Is it a driver issue?

I believe the "sample rate" is really the number of samples that are collected to send to the sound output device as a packet. So if this is 512 it collects 512 samples before sending them out, and then the output device sends them according to clock. But this creates a 512 sample delay (which relates to the actual sample rate of 44.1, 48 or 96 khz). 512 is very high for interactive playing (playing the keyboard and listening at the same time, as we always do), and generally causes unacceptable latency. The general thought is that a sample rate of 64 is ideal, and 128 is often acceptable. So you want to at least get your sample rate to 128 if not lower. Lower sample rates cause more data to be transferred across the driver, and generally increases CPU load, so there is a tradeoff.

Regarding headphone quality, I consider myself an audiophile and I love a nice set of cans. I have high end Grado headphones (RS-1e) and some other nice ones. I understand the audio nerd desire to get best possible headphone output. However, FWIW I don't have any issue with the headphone output on either my Scarlett 2i4 (3rd gen) or 4i4 (2nd generation). They sound very good to me. The piano from PTQ sounds completely realistic, and puts me in the space (say concert hall) that I've selected. The biggest thing to me is using open-back headphones. They sound way better and more natural than closed back. You would only use closed-back if you are in a situation where you need to block out all other sound IMO. I use Grado SR-225s that I bought used on ebay for $100.

Last edited by sharpnine (20-10-2023 17:19)

Re: Latency (min 512) with KDP-120, AMD Ryzen 5 3300, 16GB, SMSL DAC/AMP

Start by downloading and installing Latency Monitor, assuming you are running Windows.

https://resplendence.com/latencymon

This application will indicate who the culprit is that's interrupting Pianoteq because its purpose is to show what's causing issues with audio.

You start Latency Monitor first then set it to scan while you play your digital piano normally through Pianoteq.

When a stutter or one of those annoying big pauses occurrs, the software will display a red line with information on what is causing the problem.

With that information in hand, you can then attempt to eliminate it.

The biggest culprits I found were:

Dell's noisy Support Agent and accompanying services.

I stopped the services for Support Agent and I had fewer issues afterwards on one machine but additional issues on another.

Recently, I set up a dedicated hand-me-down Dell desktop running Windows 10 and gave it the same treatment but still had issues with big pauses and stutters. This could be that this system uses an older i7 CPU and has less RAM than my other higher-end desktop.

These stutters and glitches, though didn't show anything with Latency Monitor, and in order to find who was causing problems this time around, I checked the Event Viewer every time a pause or hiccup occurred. These always correlated with Windows checking something on the network whether it's the network in general for any shares, or the internet even though I do not browse on this machine at all except to check for software updates. The solution for this is to disable the network in Windows and not by pulling the cable from the machine. Disconnecting the cable did nothing because Windows kept checking anyway. With both a wireless and wired connection on this machine, I only use the wired anyway, I disabled both and that helped.

With you running a laptop, this may be a bit more difficult, though. In addition to the above-mentioned solutions for my desktops, you may have to disable other things. On many laptops and other bundled pre-built PCs such as those from Dell, and HP, among others, they install a lot of other unnecessary garbage and usually the worst antivirus on the market. McAfee is very system heavy and can cause all kinds of performance issues in general. For both Dell desktops, that was the first thing I uninstalled and used the built-in Windows Defender. Once I did that the machine performance overall was like night and day.

Re: Latency (min 512) with KDP-120, AMD Ryzen 5 3300, 16GB, SMSL DAC/AMP

I also get a very long delay with my smsl m500.  Reducing the buffer size and increasing the sample rate reduced the latency, but it's not something my computer can handle.  I got out of this situation by purchasing a Steinberg UR22c audio card.

Last edited by scherbakov.al (22-10-2023 12:25)