Harmonic pedal vs Half pedalling

The Harmonic pedal doesn’t exist in acoustic piano and the documentation is rather succinct , other than explaining the effect . On an acoustic grand , if you want to maintain bass notes while playing chromatic runs or staccato in the upper register with the RH , you use half pedalling and this effect is perfectly rendered with Pianoteq modelling of the sustain pedal , so I am wondering what is  the basis for the ´harmonic’ pedal ? It is a kind of pre programmed half pedal or is it modelled using complete different acoustic properties ?

jamiecw wrote:

joannchr wrote:

The Harmonic pedal doesn’t exist in acoustic piano and the documentation is rather succinct , other than explaining the effect . On an acoustic grand , if you want to maintain bass notes while playing chromatic runs or staccato in the upper register with the RH , you use half pedalling and this effect is perfectly rendered with Pianoteq modelling of the sustain pedal , so I am wondering what is  the basis for the ´harmonic’ pedal ? It is a kind of pre programmed half pedal or is it modelled using complete different acoustic properties ?

The only piano that I know of with a harmonic pedal is a Feurich. Check this video out for more details;
https://youtu.be/t7z6cYWjr3Q
Ptq seems to have it across all models being it’s software based but not all acoustics have it.

Thank you. It looks like this is what they have modelled here. I actually find it is clever as you get full resonance for the notes not being played and dampers on the strings for notes that have been played if the pedal is half depressed  and  standard sustain when pedal fully depressed.

Mark959 wrote:

joannchr wrote:

Thank you. It looks like this is what they have modelled here. I actually find it is clever as you get full resonance for the notes not being played and dampers on the strings for notes that have been played if the pedal is half depressed  and  standard sustain when pedal fully depressed.

Hi,
I own a Feurich Grand with harmonic pedal.
If anyone has any questions or would like anything demonstrated, then feel free to ask!
Feurich have now discontinued the harmonic pedal - I was lucky enough to get hold of the last one sold in the UK

Indeed you are lucky. I wonder why this pedal wasn't more widely adopted. I guess it is because the extra engineering cost was not compelling enough for the use case. I essentially use it for baroque music ( Bach , Scarlati…) . I think the ability to add / change pedal types on modelled piano is unique in the market. Some other pedals are really great too such as the glissando pedal which I imagine is close to the 4th pedal implemented in some Faziolis.

Mark959 wrote:

joannchr wrote:

Indeed you are lucky. I wonder why this pedal wasn't more widely adopted. I guess it is because the extra engineering cost was not compelling enough for the use case. I essentially use it for baroque music ( Bach , Scarlati…) . I think the ability to add / change pedal types on modelled piano is unique in the market. Some other pedals are really great too such as the glissando pedal which I imagine is close to the 4th pedal implemented in some Faziolis.

Yes, the harmonic pedal typically added about £1,500 to the piano cost, but there wasn't enough demand for it for Feurich to consider it worthwhile to continue, especially as it was a nightmare to maintain due to its somewhat temperamental reliability!  Luckily, Paul Barton showed me how to fix it when the occasional damper fails to behave!

I've just tried the glissando pedal - it actually creates an automatic glissando if you hold one note and then play another.
Useful for playing Beethoven's Waldstein Sonata, which has glissando octaves, almost impossible on modern pianos.

The Fazioli 4th pedal is a half-blow pedal, similar to upright piano soft pedals. Very useful for playing very quietly and lightly on a 10 foot grand!
Being somewhat pedal obsessed, I've now added a half-blow pedal to my acoustic grand, using the Stuart and Sons design.

The "Mozart Rail" (Steingraeber's name for their half-blow device) is the closest option on Pianoteq which gives this effect.

If you look up "Nils Frahm", he's invented a mute pedal on his Yamaha Grand - possibly another Baroque-like harpsichord-stop effect.
The fact that Pianoteq has something very similar (Buff Stop Pedal) is very exciting indeed.

If anyone knows where I can get an 8-pedal midi controller, please let me know!!!

EDIT: I've just noticed that the automatic glissando can be switched off, leaving the pedal as a variable-sensitivity half-blow pedal, which is how the Fazioli and Stuart pianos are designed. I made the mistake of assigning the function to my middle pedal, which is on/off only, and has no half-pedal capability.

This puts Pianoteq 8 even further up in my ratings - amazing software!

just in case you dont know these products , you use multiple USB converter midi pedals ( audiofront or doremidi) . They have up to 4x entries, so 2 of these units will allow you  to have 8 pedals .Like yourself , I consider the pedals as a primordial component of piano sound making too often neglected by VST sofware editors except pianoteq .

Mark959 wrote:

joannchr wrote:

just in case you dont know these products , you use multiple USB converter midi pedals ( audiofront or doremidi) . They have up to 4x entries, so 2 of these units will allow you  to have 8 pedals .Like yourself , I consider the pedals as a primordial component of piano sound making too often neglected by VST sofware editors except pianoteq .

Thanks for that! My knowledge of midi controllers is very limited. I read an old forum post about audiofront and was indeed wondering if that's still the best option.
I know you've got to be careful with the choice of pedal and controller, if you need the expressive half-pedalling effect.
Which brand of pedal would you recommend? (I'm in the UK, btw)
I saw someone make a DIY pedal rack, so several single pedals are housed in a nice neat box.

Thanks again!

these USB controllers are really good , no latency and support most of type of pedals continuous ( half pedalling ) or not . I had a triple pedal board from Kawai but found the pedal too short for my linking as I tend to use the half pedal technique recommended by Ravel where your right foot is constantly in contact with the pedal so can you control the level of sustain with the heel. I found this technique , the most precise for half pedalling but you need a long pedal and I found the Roland DP10 very good , silent and quite reliable for a very good price . I personally use 4 pedals : sustain , sustenato and una corda all the time , and configure the 4 th  one depending on the requirement of the piece . I also use the Celeste all the time ( on the pianoteq panel ) with a level of 0.2 to slightly soften the sound of the piano which gives a very light felt effect .
cheers

Mark959 wrote:

joannchr wrote:

these USB controllers are really good , no latency and support most of type of pedals continuous ( half pedalling ) or not . I had a triple pedal board from Kawai but found the pedal too short for my linking as I tend to use the half pedal technique recommended by Ravel where your right foot is constantly in contact with the pedal so can you control the level of sustain with the heel. I found this technique , the most precise for half pedalling but you need a long pedal and I found the Roland DP10 very good , silent and quite reliable for a very good price . I personally use 4 pedals : sustain , sustenato and una corda all the time , and configure the 4 th  one depending on the requirement of the piece . I also use the Celeste all the time ( on the pianoteq panel ) with a level of 0.2 to slightly soften the sound of the piano which gives a very light felt effect .
cheers

People on this forum are very kind and helpful!
Is there any real difference between the audiofront and doremidi? The latter is cheaper, which helps compensate for the expense of multiple DP-10s.
Thanks again!!

For traditional pedals with mechanical sensors the 2 product are similar. Excellent quality for both converter box and software to configure the pedals. Audiofront latest midi expression one entry version supports pedals with optical sensors that require 9v power such as Kawai F-10H but is out of stock. Doremidi is a bit cheaper , but I have 2 of these devices and it is flawless very reliable and very well built.

joannchr wrote:

On an acoustic grand , if you want to maintain bass notes while playing chromatic runs or staccato in the upper register with the RH , you use half pedalling...

For a concrete example, in Polglase's "Andulko" variations, in the last variation starting at 9:30, I used the harmonic pedal to get a combination of clarity and resonance that I wasn't able to achieve with conventional half-pedalling.  I like it when Pianoteq lets me go beyond the limitations of physical instruments :-)