Making pianoteq sound good through internal DP speakers (clavinova)

Hi ankipruthi. It would be interesting to know if playing a radio channel (Radio 3 for example) from PC to the CLP-745 would also require EQ.

Although I usually suspect volume been set wrong in some way, it could well be the speakers are not flat in their response. To check this you could try, PC volume around 75 (I have mine at 65), if using Asio4All, or reduced volume from audio interface, making sure line level to the CLP-745 if it does not have balanced +4 dB inputs. Then reduce 'main volume' in Pianoteq to around -7 dB.

Nick

That is interesting ankipruthi, and surprising. It's good that you have done these tests, so now I suppose either a compromise or different approach will be needed.

I don't think EQ is the best solution because your recordings will then be too bright etc. Unless you could EQ outside Pianoteq and it's recording, but this might be too complicated and not very practical. It seems a lot of digital piano owners have problems like dull sound etc. Shame really because internal speakers are at least perfectly positioned.

Maybe just go with external monitors?

Nick

They are not designed  in terms of a monitoring accuracy. The listening distance is dictated by function.

Nonetheless they are near-field in nature.
The player is very near the loudspeakers - literally with their hands on part of the physical sound radiating system. The cabinet being part of the baffle system.
The typically low cost, low power handling full range drive units are screwed into the plastic housing, not directly facing the listener. Broadly omnidirectional, but in a messy way.

A digital piano relies on the listeners proximity. They are not designed to fill theatres so much as entertain the player, and occasional captive household audience.

Any typical respectable two way near-field loudspeaker monitors will surpass the internal loudspeakers of a digital piano even on a high end unit, usually in terms of loudness, always in terms of sound projection when considering accuracy to source.

At best the loudspeakers of a high end digital piano are carefully designed to mimic the radiating pattern of a real piano. Built in additional bass drive units adding authority to the sound. The aim is completely different to near-field monitoring.

The built in sound system of the vast majority of TVs is cheap and nasty, barely an afterthought. Not worth considering in terms of listening distance accuracy.

Mid-field loudspeakers are often three ways, or much larger bass/mid two ways.  Driver integration more convincing with the listeners further from the loudspeakers. However they can work well in near-field too, whereas the near-field type tend to lack bass authority necessary for larger rooms, and high listening levels. Also the near-field loudspeakers narrow baffles and smaller drive units broad radiating pattern works best in close quarters.

I think you sum up everything quite nicely. That's a really good explanation of differences between monitors and DP speakers. And yeah this EQ is indeed to make it suitable for live playing ON clavinova using its own internal interface mainly. Helps a lot with practice where I am hearing the sound from the piano itself and not coming from a different direction from some speakers. I really wanted to get as close to the playing experience I felt in store on an expensive upright (which I couldn't afford).

on a CLP-470, I also struggled to get the internal speakers to sound anywhere near as good as headphones. Going through the manual, I worked out that the only way to supress the Yamaha's internal EQ is to make use of the line-out. I simply plugged a spare adapter (6.35mm Male to 3.5mm Female) into one of the line-out sockets (the L+R) and that completely cured the problem. The sound of the internal speakers was tremendously improved, they sounded much louder, richer, and clearer across the whole 88 notes.

I now have actual 6.35mm mono to RCA cables connecting the line-outs to an amp for external monitors. This is actually a Denon integrated hi-fi with Mission speakers, connected to a bass guitar amp through the external subwoofer channel. I switch these on to enjoy performing pieces (as opposed to learning/practice) which makes the overall sound (keeping the internal speakers on) much richer.

Hi Nick, thanks for the info and tips. Re DAC, I should explain that I simply use the audio line-in inputs, so the DAC is effectively external to the piano. For the DAC, I'm using Realtek 24bit DAC which seems pretty decent. Can't really complain considering I'd bought it back in 2021 for £8.50 - I think it now retails for £13 or so.

In terms of settings in control panel, it's 24bit 192KHz which matches Pianoteq's max bitrate (I happen to have Pro capabilities because I took advantage of the recent Black Friday sale and got Studio which includes it).

Not sure if this is making total sense, so let me try to lay out the setup a bit more clearly:

Setup:
======
1- PC (mini tower) connected via a long USB extension lead which goes to
2- the back (and then top) of Yamaha CLP-470 digital piano
3- USB extension lead is connected to a 4-port USB hub
4- Two slots of the USB hub are used, one for MIDI to USB lead
5- and the other for a USB to 3.5mm stereo jack (Realtek DAC Chip 24bit)
6- 3.5mm stereo to two mono 6.35mm jacks plugged into the Yamaha's line-in sockets
7- 6.35mm mono jacks to RCA lead connects the Yamaha's line-out sockets to
8- Denon (UD-M31) integrated hi-fi system with Mission (SCM51) speakers
9- RCA to 3.5mm stereo jack, this lead connects the subwoofer out of the Denon to
10- TC Electronic BG250 (208) bass guitar amp via a
11- J&D 3.5mm (stereo) to 6.35mm (mono) lead
12- the two 3.5mm male jacks of the J&D (at the bass guitar amp end) and the RCA to 3.5mm lead (at the Denon subwoofer-out end) are connected together through a ground-loop isolator which has two female 3.5mm ports (Neoteck Audio Noise Filter).

Links:
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Here are the corresponding links which might be helpful to know the specs and configurations (not affiliate links or anything like that) just to give a better idea of what the above looks like hopefully:
1- https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01M4PKURH
2- http://www.sheargoldmusic.co.uk/content..._om_f0.pdf
3- https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01DYD3Q28
4- https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B09B72KGR6
5- https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B08CXHFWS1
6- https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0B76MG8HX
7- https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B09FJP82MC
8- https://www.manualslib.com/manual/76869...tml?page=3
9- https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0B1DKWY3Q
10- https://www.ambertech.com.au/Documents/...manual.pdf
11- https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07VCDJ73Q
12- https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B076J3GD74

Notes:
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1- This is just a really cheap home PC, bought second hand back in 2020 and upgraded the hard disk to SSD, Dell OptiPlex 7020 SFF Core i5-4590. I like the idea that I can upgrade it relatively cheaply to a far more powerful multi core system in future, which would be a lot cheaper than an equivalently powered processor in a laptop formfactor for example.

2- Got this secondhand from ebay for a very good price, which was fortunate as I had a very limited budget but thankfully the seller graciously accepted my modest offer. Really delighted with the action, and the synthetic ivory is a huge improvement on the Yamaha P120s grippy feel of the keys under the fingers which is what I had previously. Also having a sturdy cabinet, and powerful built-in speakers made a big difference. The double width piano bench which came with it is also very comfortable. You are always taking a chance when buying on ebay but I must say I'm really delighted with this purchase, got very lucky there.

3- In Pianoteq standalone application, I use "Audio device type: Windows Audio (Low Latency Mode), and in the DAW (Cakewalk, which is completely free) I use "Driver Mode: WASAPI Shared". I'm very happy with the responsiveness, and have not noticed any latency issues even though I'm not using a dedicated sound card/audio interface, it just never felt necessary. I guess there must be some latency there, but none which I could detect, and it certainly doesn't affect the playing experience and responsiveness of Pianoteq.

4- My previous setup was around a Yamaha P120s, which didn't have direct USB capabilities, so I simply reused this lead. I also understand this might avoid some noise/ground-loop issues by providing extra isolation, but I have never tried the Yamaha CLP-470 USB midi port to test/compare.

8- I just happened to have this hi-fi sitting around collecting dust for many years, so thought to finally put it to use.
10- Similarly, I didn't buy the bass guitar amp specifically for this purpose. I've had it since 2017 as I play bass guitar in a band formed by work colleagues.

9-12: it might be possible to simplify the setup by using an RCA stereo to a 6.35mm mono jack, to connect (more directly) the Denon subwoofer-out to the bass guitar amp. I just made use of what I already had to hand, and it seems perfectly fine as it is so didn't tinker with it any further.

12- Not sure if this is essential in terms of ground loop isolation, I just used it really as a means of connecting two male 3.5mm leads together as I just happened to have it already and had no other use for it.

Is there a way to measure the sound coloration made by the DP by analyzing the spectrum? And then try adjusting the EQ accordingly. I was thinking of some kind of standardized set of audio clips. A neutral microphone would then be needed, of course. For optimizing the output for all kinds of DPs/speaker sets.

Hi, all,
My point fits under the topic heading ("Making pianoteq sound good through internal DP speakers (clavinova)"), so I'm reviving this not-so-very-ancient thread, in case the information is of any use to other newcomers like me who happen upon it but aren't experts and simply want to play Pianoteq sounds on their Clavinova.

I'm a first-time poster, just bought a Clavinova CLP-745 (like the OP) and have tried playing Pianoteq through the Clavinova's internal speakers, initially without success. (The comparison here is not with external speakers, which is a separate topic.)

Now I've connected my computer via USB to a Schiit Modi 3 DAC and from there to the Clavinova's AUX IN port. For this to work, you have to select your Schiit Modi (or whatever audio device you're using) in Pianoteq's device settings.

Compared to the Clavinova's internal CFX and Bosendorfer voices, the Pianoteq voices sound (to me) surprisingly good (though not necessarily better), without too much tweaking. So, in reference to the OP's question, in my very limited experience Pianoteq already sounds pretty good through the internal DP speakers.

In particular, since the Clavinova's internal voices don't sound so great through the internal speakers at low volumes (compared to through headphones) and the scope for tweaking is limited, my doubt was whether Pianoteq would offer any improvement in this respect. If it does, I imagine it will be through the greater scope for tweaking, so not an out-of-the-box improvement but still an interesting possibility, which I plan to explore.

There is a setting for that in Clavinova. Press the function button, go all the way down and find the setting called IAC. Turn it on and increase IAC depth. This should improve the DP's sound at lower volumes.
Also via open back headphones, the piano sounds insanely good as is, no tweaks, no VSTs, none of that needed.

For pianoteq voices, aside from the eq, there isn't that much else to do if you have the stage version.
I am not entirely sure if IAC applies to sounds incoming via usb or bluetooth though.
Within Pianoteq, Equalizer (not effects rack eq) can be fun to tweak. This I think affects harmonics and not the final sound. Great if you need a bass boost or mid-boost or cut down highs for a softer sound.
In standard version, I usually end up keeping two mics close to where ears would be and a third mic for more ambiance. This is similar to some of the intimate presets on some pianos.
Another place to tweak is hammer hardness and velocity curve. This makes a huge difference in piano's brightness vs mellowness.