Topic: Could someone please explain Pianoteq velocity curves to me?

I've used the calibration wizard on my NV10S, but I'm not really satisfied with the sound at the recommended setting.

Could someone please explain the considerations for the curve settings in some detail and what I'm seeing in the graph when I'm playing? I've searched YouTube for tutorials but have yet to find a thorough explanation. I've tried pulling the line up at the middle and heard how the action seems easier but there appear to be less dynamic range and the sound is 'harder'. Lowering the curve manual seems to give a nicer sound but less responsive action (though this can be somewhat overcome by raising the volume.

I'm confused why some cure settings are a gentle arc while others have a more zig-zag appearance. On the curve suggested by my calibration session, the graph tops out before the right side and is flat to the right. Not sure what that signifies.

Here are my current NV10S settings based on the calibration wizart and a slight manual tweak I did on the sustain pedal curve to better support half pedaling (not entirely sure what I did, but it worked! I wasn't getting half-pedaling until I pressed the pedal 3/4 down and now I'm getting it at the midway point as expected)

Global Velocity = [0, 5, 41, 77, 85, 103, 127; 0, 0, 32, 64, 96, 127, 127]
Global Sustain Velocity = [0, 10, 51, 116, 127; 0, 0, 84, 127, 127]

Could someone please help me to interpret what this means from a practical standpoint?

Re: Could someone please explain Pianoteq velocity curves to me?

jonfrommaine wrote:

Global Velocity = [0, 5, 41, 77, 85, 103, 127; 0, 0, 32, 64, 96, 127, 127]

Sorry, English is not my native language but I will try to explain...

Do you see the semicolon (;) between the numbers?
It seperates the input velocity values to the output velocity.

It's a mapping from inputs to outputs:
input -> output
0 -> 0
5 -> 0
41 -> 32
77 -> 64
85 -> 96
103 -> 127
127 -> 127

So if your piano produces a velocity value of 41, pianoteq will handle it like the input was 32.

The maximum velocity that your piano is able to produce seems to be 103.
Therefore 103 is mapped to the maximum possible velocity value of 127.

And the minimum value, your piano is able to produce seems to be 5.
Therefore 5 is mapped to 0.


I was never satisfied with the velocity curve from the calibration wizard...
But the curve could be used as a starting point.

So now you know that your piano is able to produce velocity values in the range of 5 to 103.
You could start with a linear curve:
Global Velocity = [0, 5, 103, 127; 0, 0, 127, 127]

From here you can optimize the curve to your liking.
In the end your curve could look like this:
Velocity = [0, 5, 36, 62, 83, 103, 127; 0, 0, 20, 57, 100, 127, 127]

Last edited by georg (03-07-2023 13:01)

Re: Could someone please explain Pianoteq velocity curves to me?

I've just looked up your piano. Lovely!

Try it with a straight line first. I imagine on such a high class instrument it'll be good with the default. (If you click where is says velocity it brings up a menu and one of the options is Normal keyboard. That's the default.)

But from what you say, it needs some tweaking.

A custom curve is needed when the instrument internally responds to the midi input and generates its sound differently to Pianoteq.

To make a custom curve, look at midi numbers output for extremely soft and extremely hard key presses. That shows you the usable range. Then you play at different dynamics and adjust the curve to get the timbre and volume you want at those dynamics. Small changes make quite a lot of difference.

Last edited by Declanomad (03-07-2023 23:14)

Re: Could someone please explain Pianoteq velocity curves to me?

Thanks for the helpful responses Georg and Declanomad. Georg: your explanation really clarified how to interpret the numbers. I tried your setting but it’s a little too harsh and metallic for this keyboard. I have a Pianoteq studio license with all of the available instruments and some of the versions (prelude, warm, etc.) are ok, but the standards are too percussive. I’ve found that I have to be below the default straight line for the first half of the curve to get a pleasant tone. I’ll continue to experiment. Maybe there are other settings besides the velocity curve I should be using as well. Sounds ok through phones coming from my Focusrite, but through my HS7s and HS8S sub it’s too harsh and not piano-like. I’m guessing the vertical white bars are telling me the velocities I’m currently playing and this is the range I should be concentrating on. That’s probably what you were telling me Declanomad. It’s a bit of an art as much as science I guess. Funny, I used to get a better sound through my old Roland A88, but the keyboard action of this hybrid is in a totally different league. Unfortunately the damper pedal appears to be defective, but that’s another story…

Re: Could someone please explain Pianoteq velocity curves to me?

That's right, the white bars show the notes that are sounding, both in midi and ppp<->fff. You can see the midi signals on the midi tab of the audio/midi setup. Audio/midi setup is on the File menu. There you can check what the pedals are outputting.
Other go to setting are the hammer hardness for timbre, and the impedance for sustain, turning the effects on and off, and adjusting mechanical noises (key release noise, pedal noise and damper noise). There are further details and some tutorials in the manual.

I've heard that those Yamaha monitors are good but can be tiring. Instead of having the tweeter pointing directly at the ear, you could try toeing them out, or have the tweeter aiming above the ear.

Re: Could someone please explain Pianoteq velocity curves to me?

jonfrommaine wrote:

. Unfortunately the damper pedal appears to be defective, but that’s another story…


It that's true overall and not just with pianoteq, then you might check the manual's trouble-shooting suggestion on page 77:

"The pedals are unreliable or do not function at all.
Check that the pedal cable is firmly connected to the instrument."

https://kawaius.com/wp-content/uploads/...Manual.pdf

Re: Could someone please explain Pianoteq velocity curves to me?

My damper problem is largely mechanical. The NV10S has a fully mechanical damper system, where the pedal pushes a rod which pushes up against an acoustic-like damper bar. In some of the models, there is not enough tension in the mechanism so it is necessary to press the pedal close to full depression to get any sustain effect. Not good for half pedaling. Also, the pedal spring is very stiff. Kawai claims it is modeled against their concert grands but it is the stiffest damper pedal I've ever used and I've played a number of acoustic grands, though not Kawai. Also, when pressing firmly all the way down, which you tend to do with this action, there's an annoying creaking sound.

I'm going to have a local acoustic technician service this as it is essentially an acoustic action. For the time being, I've modified the Pianoteq sustain pedal velocity curve to grossly exaggerate the lower end of the curve. This helps provide some half-pedalling functionality.

This is a brand new unit and I'm very happy with it in all other aspects, especially the keyboard action which provides a acoustic grand playing experience. Although the internal sounds aren't bad, I'm using it as a MIDI controller with Pianoteq and Garritan CFX, using a Focusrite audio controller to blend my external monitor speakers with the internal sound system.

Re: Could someone please explain Pianoteq velocity curves to me?

jonfrommaine wrote:

Thanks for the helpful responses Georg and Declanomad. Georg: your explanation really clarified how to interpret the numbers. I tried your setting but it’s a little too harsh and metallic for this keyboard. I have a Pianoteq studio license with all of the available instruments and some of the versions (prelude, warm, etc.) are ok, but the standards are too percussive. I’ve found that I have to be below the default straight line for the first half of the curve to get a pleasant tone. I’ll continue to experiment. Maybe there are other settings besides the velocity curve I should be using as well. Sounds ok through phones coming from my Focusrite, but through my HS7s and HS8S sub it’s too harsh and not piano-like. I’m guessing the vertical white bars are telling me the velocities I’m currently playing and this is the range I should be concentrating on. That’s probably what you were telling me Declanomad. It’s a bit of an art as much as science I guess. Funny, I used to get a better sound through my old Roland A88, but the keyboard action of this hybrid is in a totally different league. Unfortunately the damper pedal appears to be defective, but that’s another story…

Before you try the calibration process, random velocity curves posted by end users, or manually manipulating the points on the curve you might try some of the basic presets (if you haven't already).  If you click on the word "VELOCITY" above the curve you can choose some simple presets like "slow keyboard", "moderately fast keyboard", etc.  This will give you some well-behaved curves to try out whereas the other methods can sometimes give you nonsensical curves for various reasons.

There's a good chance, however, that your dissatisfaction isn't related to the velocity curve at all.  It could be lots of things, but personally the things that tend to bother me most with the default settings are the effects (reverb and delay in particular) and the hammer hardness settings (under VOICING the the middle section of the main part of the window).

For me that's because the effects and the default hammer settings make the piano sound too soft and distant, like I'm listening to someone else playing a piano in a large space instead of myself playing a piano right in front of me in a tiny space.  Of course if your goal is to produce sound for a recording that might be just what you want, or you might just prefer that sound even if it's less realistic.  For me it's kind of like watching someone sing in an old movie where you know that the voice was recorded in a studio, dubbed in, sounds way too perfect and doesn't match what you see on the screen.