This sounds exciting. Could someone please share the details of your entire setup. What connectors/leads are you using to interface the iOS device with your digital piano, and so on. If you can post photos that would be really excellent. Would be looking to purchase an iPad to try this out, but it would be great to visualise what the whole setup would look like in real life, thanks!
This sounds exciting. Could someone please share the details of your entire setup. What connectors/leads are you using to interface the iOS device with your digital piano, and so on. If you can post photos that would be really excellent. Would be looking to purchase an iPad to try this out, but it would be great to visualise what the whole setup would look like in real life, thanks!
For iPad (with USB-C) if your digital piano has USB connection it's easy, either get an adapter like this one that lets you plug two USB accessories to the iPad (if you have an external soundcard and your digital piano has USB connection -- this specific setup worked for me), or a similar hub that has USB and an audio jack.
If your digital piano has no USB connection, there's USB-C hubs with a MIDI connector and an audio jack.
A bit late to the party, but WOW. Many thanks to Modartt for this release and its licensing scheme. I am astonished at the quality of this product on iOS and how on part it is with the desktop version! There is very little comprised here. Just WOW.
This sounds exciting. Could someone please share the details of your entire setup.
LOW POWER SETUP for LIGHTNING DEVICES
1. Audio Card + USB Hub + Apple USB Adapter
2. USB Hub has 3 Ports (ORICO)
3. Portable Battery-Powered Rig (Korg microKey Air + Earbuds)
4. ORICO USB Hubs, Audio Cards by Vention and UGreen
5. Pianoteq Settings
NOTES:
- USB-C iPads - there are USB-C Hubs that can replace the entire Lightning Setup above.
- Some digital pianos have a built-in USB audio card (P-125, FP30x etc.) which also simplifies the setup.
InstruJam wrote:This sounds exciting. Could someone please share the details of your entire setup.
LOW POWER SETUP for LIGHTNING DEVICES
1. Audio Card + USB Hub + Apple USB Adapter
2. USB Hub has 3 Ports (ORICO)
3. Portable Battery-Powered Rig (Korg microKey Air + Earbuds)
4. ORICO USB Hubs, Audio Cards by Vention and UGreen
5. Pianoteq Settings
Why not go through the iOS device itself for sound? Are those USB sound devices offering even less latency?
Why not go through the iOS device itself for sound? Are those USB sound devices offering even less latency?
I could use the iPhone sound directly, but only because the keyboard (microKey Air) supports Bluetooth MIDI. That's normally how I use that keyboard; it's a great portable rig.
But I posted the audio card+usb hub+apple adapter setup, because that works with any USB keyboard. It also has less latency vs. Bluetooth MIDI.
Quick Hardware / Performance Comparison
I loaded Pianoteq onto some older hardware and ran the Blues demo (to see how low I could go):iPad Air Original (A7 CPU)
- Had to half the Internal Sample Rate to 24000Hz to get decent performance, 128 samples (2.7ms), 128 polyphony
- Performance Index - a solid 33; similar to the Raspberry Pi / Odroid N2+.
Verdict: Not great but still usable.iPhone 7 Plus (A10 CPU)
- Had to half the Internal Sample Rate to get decent performance, 128 samples (2.7ms), 128 polyphony
- Performance Index - a very un-stable 12 .. 70 with warnings of large fluctuations, it occasionally dropped to 12 .. 33.
Verdict: Very un- stable Performance Index, despite having a better CPU than the older iPad, it performed much worse, in many cases unusable.iPhone 11 (A13 CPU)
- Full settings, 128 samples (2.7ms), 128 polyphony
- Performance Index - a very stable 63 .. 76
Verdict: Great, very usable.NOTES
1. Looks like iPads might have better performance over iPhones, even when the iPad is much older. Perhaps iPads have better heat dissipation or more memory or bandwidth? Something to think about if you're shopping for an iOS device for Pianoteq.2. The A13 CPU on the iPhone 11 is very usable, would be curious to see if an iPad with the same A13 CPU gets better performance.
3. I wonder if the iPad Pros perform better over regular iPads (with the same CPU). And there may be performance differences between the regular iPhone, iPhone Pro, iPad and iPad Pro lines.
4. Yes I know I really should trade-in those old device already :-)
Just did a quick torture test on my 3rd generation SE (A15), performance index happily gets up to about 150 and I just can't trip this up even with polyphony approaching 300 - there's headroom to spare and it isn't even close to overload.
Powerful little machine, well executed software!
This sounds exciting. Could someone please share the details of your entire setup. What connectors/leads are you using to interface the iOS device with your digital piano, and so on. If you can post photos that would be really excellent. Would be looking to purchase an iPad to try this out, but it would be great to visualise what the whole setup would look like in real life, thanks!
I've got a USB-C iPad Pro (2021 M1) and I use Pianoteq with my 2001-era Kawai Digital piano which has 5-pin MIDI DIN sockets. I connect the iPad to the piano via an iRig Midi 2 box which converts the 5-pin DIN into USB A and that is connected to the iPad via a hub. I put a video together on my YouTube channel (same name, @sieffen) where I show all the details of my setup. My set up uses an audio interface so I can get the sound through speakers rather than just through the iPad speakers. And the mixing desk box is only connected up if I'm streaming through the laptop, and has no purpose in the actual music making process. Note that the video predates the Pianoteq release so some of the generalisations aren't applicable e.g. the pedals in Pianoteq work correctly.
More modern digital pianos will have USB midi built in so a straight USB cable would be fine.
Si
It’s funny, I’ve been trying to get a small Linux SBC working with pianoteq and then this drops! On my iPad Pro 2020 I get a stable 92 performance index @48kHz 64 samples with virtually no latency from my VPC1 key presses to the AUX speakers.
I have one issue though. After a couple of seconds pianoteq seems to stop listening to MIDI input, and when I press a key it “fades in” like if attack was turned down. Then it plays normally unless I wait a few seconds again. I noticed that CPU usage drops from an idle 8% to an idle 1% when I stop playing for a few seconds. I have keep CPU busy on. Anyone have this issue or a fix?
Just did a quick torture test on my 3rd generation SE (A15), performance index happily gets up to about 150 and I just can't trip this up even with polyphony approaching 300 - there's headroom to spare and it isn't even close to overload.
Powerful little machine, well executed software!
Please describe how you measured Performance Index of 150 with your iPhone SE (A15). Was this playing an internal MIDI file, or were you playing in real time from an external keyboard?
With my iPhone 13 (A15), I am getting PI of 80 when just running the Blues Demo MIDI file, but only about half of that when I play from a keyboard, output to audio interface, etc.
Thanks!
A bit later....Sorry! I get stable PI of 80 playing with keyboard too. I was adding too much overhead processing by the AUM mixer in iOS. When I eliminate that, Pianoteq is steady 80. I'm playing with 48k sample rate and 128 sample buffer.
I started up Auria on my iPad pro 2018--Auria is a nice DAW for iPad. Pianoteq 8 was there as an instrument and seems to work fine. The UI comes up in a window within Auria. I did get a low on memory warning at first (it's got 4 gigs of RAM), which went away when I closed other apps.
On a related note, I did a gig the other day using a 2019 iPad (A10) running Pianoteq, and lined up the iPad with Pianoteq, my iPad Pro 12.9 (with ForScore for sheet music), and my Focusrite audio interface on my music stand. It worked out well. Controlling Pianoteq through the touch screen UI on the iPad was much easier to do then using a touchpad on my laptop, and the screen is larger and in a better place for viewing. I plan to make this my travelling setup. As a backup, pianoteq is installed on my iPhone, if I have any issues with the iPad.
It’s funny, I’ve been trying to get a small Linux SBC working with pianoteq and then this drops! On my iPad Pro 2020 I get a stable 92 performance index @48kHz 64 samples with virtually no latency from my VPC1 key presses to the AUX speakers.
I have one issue though. After a couple of seconds pianoteq seems to stop listening to MIDI input, and when I press a key it “fades in” like if attack was turned down. Then it plays normally unless I wait a few seconds again. I noticed that CPU usage drops from an idle 8% to an idle 1% when I stop playing for a few seconds. I have keep CPU busy on. Anyone have this issue or a fix?
Any chance something is doing noise reduction on the audio signal? Does it happen with headphones and/or other iOS piano libraries?
Danzamarfil wrote:It’s funny, I’ve been trying to get a small Linux SBC working with pianoteq and then this drops! On my iPad Pro 2020 I get a stable 92 performance index @48kHz 64 samples with virtually no latency from my VPC1 key presses to the AUX speakers.
I have one issue though. After a couple of seconds pianoteq seems to stop listening to MIDI input, and when I press a key it “fades in” like if attack was turned down. Then it plays normally unless I wait a few seconds again. I noticed that CPU usage drops from an idle 8% to an idle 1% when I stop playing for a few seconds. I have keep CPU busy on. Anyone have this issue or a fix?
Any chance something is doing noise reduction on the audio signal? Does it happen with headphones and/or other iOS piano libraries?
I notice it happens only through key presses generated from the VPC1. If I press keys on the iPad after a few seconds it doesn’t do the fade-in start. It’s as if the midi input goes dormant after a few seconds and boots back up when I press a key…
I don’t have other iOS libraries to use and the same thing happens with headphones. I wouldn’t know where there’s any settings for audio signal noise reduction.
thesloth wrote:Just did a quick torture test on my 3rd generation SE (A15), performance index happily gets up to about 150 and I just can't trip this up even with polyphony approaching 300 - there's headroom to spare and it isn't even close to overload.
Powerful little machine, well executed software!
Please describe how you measured Performance Index of 150 with your iPhone SE (A15). Was this playing an internal MIDI file, or were you playing in real time from an external keyboard?
With my iPhone 13 (A15), I am getting PI of 80 when just running the Blues Demo MIDI file, but only about half of that when I play from a keyboard, output to audio interface, etc.
Thanks!
A bit later....Sorry! I get stable PI of 80 playing with keyboard too. I was adding too much overhead processing by the AUM mixer in iOS. When I eliminate that, Pianoteq is steady 80. I'm playing with 48k sample rate and 128 sample buffer.
I don’t find the performance index meaningful unless it’s under stress - the blues track doesn’t really stress anything with its max polyphony of about 10 or 11 tones as far as I remember. My A15 also says 80 under those conditions. My torture test is to set polyphony to unlimited, put the pedal down and give the virtual keyboard a good swipe up and down a few times - that pushes real time polyphony towards 300 and also pushes up the PI score accordingly.
In any case what that says to me is that the PI isn’t a very important metric on its own without further context.
TimN wrote:[. . . ]
With my iPhone 13 (A15), I am getting PI of 80 when just running the Blues Demo MIDI file, but only about half of that when I play from a keyboard, output to audio interface, etc.A bit later....Sorry! I get stable PI of 80 playing with keyboard too. I was adding too much overhead processing by the AUM mixer in iOS. When I eliminate that, Pianoteq is steady 80. I'm playing with 48k sample rate and 128 sample buffer.
I don’t find the performance index meaningful unless it’s under stress - the blues track doesn’t really stress anything with its max polyphony of about 10 or 11 tones as far as I remember. My A15 also says 80 under those conditions. My torture test is to set polyphony to unlimited, put the pedal down and give the virtual keyboard a good swipe up and down a few times - that pushes real time polyphony towards 300 and also pushes up the PI score accordingly.
In any case what that says to me is that the PI isn’t a very important metric on its own without further context.
I think you're right context may be important. Also, I think one way to get higher Perf Index may be to experiment with buffer size. With low-stress built-in Blues track I found that my Perf Index would go up as buffer size was decreased. (Opposite of my intuition. ) So I'm curious whether @TimN could get higher number by reducing buffer size from 128 to 64. Why you'd bother to want the higher number I don't know (if no concerns about latency).
I would like to understand more about how Performance Index is calculated, and what range of values suffice for a clean audio output without noticeable latency. I understand that higher relatively stable values are best, but what goes into PI? Is it simply a measure of the efficiency of conversion of input MIDI to output audio?
I still haven’t understood the import dialogue. Is it possible to move the system folders to another place, to iCloud for example? So far, I was only able to load single fxp files from my other devices..
And velocity curves only, when they were embedded in the fxp.
Thanks,
Martin
I would like to understand more about how Performance Index is calculated, and what range of values suffice for a clean audio output without noticeable latency. I understand that higher relatively stable values are best, but what goes into PI? Is it simply a measure of the efficiency of conversion of input MIDI to output audio?
I think it's easy to get hooked on these kinds of numbers, and I don't know exactly how it is calculated, but I do generally ignore it in favour of other measures. As a pianist, what I want to know is, for a given latency, at what point will it have to start dropping polyphony to preserve performance and avoid overload?
Or more importantly, will there be any circumstances when I am no longer hearing the full picture and in a sense no longer truly simulating a real instrument, because it has had to drop tones? On my old MacBook Pro from 2013, with its Haswell i7 dual core 2.8ghz, this would start to happen around 40-65 tones of polyphony, depending on circumstances. This sounds like a lot, but in terms of high-level piano playing is isn't, and in my case would be dropping regularly. This could be improved by sacrificing latency, but that would lead to another form of inaccurate simulation in the form of a keypress-to-tone delay.
In contrast, from something like an A15, there are no real-world circumstances in which it would have to drop tones even with minimal latency.
I would prefer a different performance index, or perhaps two different indices. One for precisely this - maximum polyphony at a given latency, and a separate 'stability' index to show how consistent this max polyphony number is over time.
I would prefer a different performance index, or perhaps two different indices. One for precisely this - maximum polyphony at a given latency, and a separate 'stability' index to show how consistent this max polyphony number is over time.
I agree that these alternative indices would be very helpful in a practical way for players.
In addition, I'd appreciate a discussion in the Users' Manual about the likely impact on performance of using various features and settings. What is the relative processing cost of factors like reverb, microphone simulation and other effects? Are they minor compared to factors such as polyphony and sample buffer? And how do various processor configurations deal with the computational load?
Hey, where are the midi files being archived on iOS? when I click the Browse button in the midi archiver screen I'm being redirected to the Files app but does not change directory to the pianoteq path. I tried exploring in iCloud and locally but cannot find anything. I'm using a registered PRO license. Thanks
Hey, where are the midi files being archived on iOS? when I click the Browse button in the midi archiver screen I'm being redirected to the Files app but does not change directory to the pianoteq path. I tried exploring in iCloud and locally but cannot find anything. I'm using a registered PRO license. Thanks
There's a bug with the browse button, it will be fixed in the next update. You can find the archived files by clicking on the 'folder' icon next to "All banks" in the presets manager. Click on the 'Up' button to navigate to the parent directory and you should see the 'Archive' folder.
altares wrote:Hey, where are the midi files being archived on iOS? when I click the Browse button in the midi archiver screen I'm being redirected to the Files app but does not change directory to the pianoteq path. I tried exploring in iCloud and locally but cannot find anything. I'm using a registered PRO license. Thanks
There's a bug with the browse button, it will be fixed in the next update. You can find the archived files by clicking on the 'folder' icon next to "All banks" in the presets manager. Click on the 'Up' button to navigate to the parent directory and you should see the 'Archive' folder.
Thanks, I see the files there. But I suppose, the goal is to have the midi files available in the Files app so that they can be synced with MacOS using iCloud (like all other iCloud powered apps)? That would be great if that's the case.
Also, I found out that whenever I close the app the sampling rate reverts back to 48Khz instead of the selected one. Sometimes, without closing the app. I guess it's a bug too?
Apart from that, congratulations on the beautiful app. I'm using it with an iPad Pro 12.9
Best
julien wrote:altares wrote:Hey, where are the midi files being archived on iOS? when I click the Browse button in the midi archiver screen I'm being redirected to the Files app but does not change directory to the pianoteq path. I tried exploring in iCloud and locally but cannot find anything. I'm using a registered PRO license. Thanks
There's a bug with the browse button, it will be fixed in the next update. You can find the archived files by clicking on the 'folder' icon next to "All banks" in the presets manager. Click on the 'Up' button to navigate to the parent directory and you should see the 'Archive' folder.
Thanks, I see the files there. But I suppose, the goal is to have the midi files available in the Files app so that they can be synced with MacOS using iCloud (like all other iCloud powered apps)? That would be great if that's the case.
I sent a message in to support about this, but I can't get automatic midi recording to work at all. I have 'Automatic recording' enabled in the Midi archiving settings. But in the dropdown menu in the midi player the entry 'Recently played on the keyboard' there are no entries, and on Midi archiving settings page is says no midi files are recorded.
I have gone to try to find 'Archive' directory by clicking on the folder button next to 'All banks' in the preset manager and I don't see any 'Archive' folder or any recorded midi files. I do see my saved presets.
This is on two machines: using Standard license version on an iPad Pro (2017) with iPadOS 16.2 and the Stage demo on iPad Mini 5 with iOS 16.1.1.
Hello,
I'd like to register my existing Pianoteq 8 licence for my iPhone too, but I have 3 full activations. The problem is that I've used pianoteq 4 in quite a few projects and I don't want to risk losing that, because I am in the process of modifying these tracks in the process to use higher versions but haven't finished doing it with everything yet.
Is it safe to remove the 4.0.1 activation ?
And is it maybe possible to have a dedicated iPhone (mobile) activation slot, without having to touch the desktop ones ?
Wow a great job. Works lovely.
I've installed it on ipad and iphone.
Great having flexibility to not have to depend on computer to use pianoteq
Thankyou!!
InstruJam wrote:This sounds exciting. Could someone please share the details of your entire setup.
LOW POWER SETUP for LIGHTNING DEVICES
1. Audio Card + USB Hub + Apple USB Adapter
2. USB Hub has 3 Ports (ORICO)
3. Portable Battery-Powered Rig (Korg microKey Air + Earbuds)
4. ORICO USB Hubs, Audio Cards by Vention and UGreen
5. Pianoteq Settings
Thanks for sharing!
Most likely, the Apple DAC would beat out the UGreen or the Vention for a flat response:
https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MU7E...ck-adapter
Philippe Guillaume wrote:karkwai wrote:If I make in-app purchase on IOS, does that mean I get the desktop version as well, or do I need to do the purchases on Modartt's site to licences that work on both desktop and IOS?
You get the desktop version as well which you can download form the user area after creating your user account using your purchased serial.
As somebody who doesn't like Apple and doesn't use their products, I have to admit that you guys have been really great. We all knew already you are so great from a technical and customer-focus point of view, but boys! Kudos to you for being able to accomplish all of this and basically "giving it away for free" to your existing customers. WOW. What an incredible value! And with all the Apple tax on top of that. And without increasing your prices (hope that will be maintained moving forward, since I'm not interested in running Pianoteq on iOS )
I can't state in words how impressed I am.
Now, please go back to work for that Android version too, ROTFL
It would be great!
Yes, Modartt always walks tireless in direction of perfection and versatility.
Très bien.
I was wondering about computer processing power and future releases. Is intented to always keep the IOS (and future android) versions on par with the requirements for PC?
Congrats to Modartt on the iOS version. As a former software developer I know that was a major undertaking for them.
As an Android user I'm now sick with envy, but then I do have the Linux version, so no complaints.
Does anybody else find it annoying that every time they close the Pianoteq iOS app on their iPhone (by swiping up quickly from the bottom of the screen) this causes the piano condition slider to be "touched" and therefore the currently active preset gets modified?
Actually the opposite! I want to use the condition slider, but it activates the app switcher.
I've been experimenting with using Pianoteq on an iPhone left at my Roland FP90X DP as an 'always on' sound source. (My DP setup: https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads...t3270371). Here is what I've learned:
- I've had a love/hate relationship with Pianoteq, but today I'm loving it again :-). I like the sound more than the Roland onboard sounds, and I like it (almost?) as much as VSL CFX.
- I have all the audio equipment powered through a big power strip I turn off at night. Leaving Pianoteq running all night but without charging power to the iPhone, its battery is flat in the morning. So I now plug in a 5W charger separately from the power strip I turn off.
- iOS can support only 1 audio interface. If you plug in 2 or more it automatically picks one of them. I've found no way to configure which it uses (not in iOS, nor Pianoteq, nor the order in which I connect stuff to the USB hub). This is a problem for me because I want to use my miniDSP box as the audio interface and my Roland FP90X DP for usb midi. With both connected iOS always uses the Rolands onboard audio interface. :-(
- I tried bluetooth midi so as to not connect the Roland FP90X by usb thus removing the wrong audio interface. Its glitchy with occasional lag.
- I used the FP90X audio interface then fed the audio to the miniDSP audio interface over analog. This works fine, but it means digital audio from iPhone to the keyboard, then analog to the separate analog to digital converter (which is v cheap), then digital back to analog in the miniDSP. This sounds fine, but is annoying to my engineering brain.
- Current setup is traditional midi out from the DP to the USB hub using a converter cable. That means no usb between the keyboard and the iPhone so iPhone uses the correct audio interface and sends digital audio sent straight to the miniDSP over USB. Seems to work well.
- Modartt did a fantastic job porting fully featured Pianoteq to iOS. However it could use some accommodation for iOS. Its a bit fiddly on an iPhone screen. I make use of the condition slider to dirty up the sound a bit. This control is at the bottom of the screen and iOS on iPhone sees touches in that location as operating the task switcher. So the condition slider doesn't really work. With some patience its possible to use because you can move it a small amount at a time before iOS goes to the task switcher.
- License management worked seamlessly for me. I followed the simple setup steps in the app and it activated my version of Pianoteq and the instrument packs. I believe that now its activated I can leave the device in airplane mode (no internet) and it will just work. (right?)
- I like this setup quite a bit more than using laptop VSTs. I can just sit and play without moving my laptop. For a screen at the piano I prefer to use my large iPad Pro, rather than the macbook, because of the portrait screen and using the apple pencil for score markup.
- If I want to use practice software that needs midi, eg Piano Marvel, I need to use the large iPad or Macbook. For that I could disconnect the iPhone and switch devices, but the aim of this setup is 'always on' with no messing around with wires. So instead I'm getting midi to the other device using the bluetooth midi. The latency issue doesn't matter in this case because the training software doesn't require the same rhythm accuracy as the ear. Seems to work OK so far, but needs more testing.
An alert!!
Apparently the just-released update iOS 16.5.0 (19 May 23) does NOT work with the Apple USB3 Camera Connector. Power is not delivered correctly to devices over the connector with the update.
Best not to update your iPhones and iPads until this bug is corrected, hopefully soon!
An alert!!
Apparently the just-released update iOS 16.5.0 (19 May 23) does NOT work with the Apple USB3 Camera Connector. Power is not delivered correctly to devices over the connector with the update.Best not to update your iPhones and iPads until this bug is corrected, hopefully soon!
I bought the Apple Lightning to USB 3 Camera Adapter last week, and I tried using it on my iPhone 14 Pro Max after the iOS 16.5 update. It works fine with my audio interface, Lightning to the USB charging cable, iOS Pianoteq app, and digital piano.
Some people have recommended doing a hard shutdown on the iPhone and iPad by pressing the Volume Up button once quickly, the Volume Down button once quickly, and the Side Button until the Apple logo appears on the screen. The device will restart on its own.
I guess Apple will be working on a bug fix by firmware or an iOS update to help all users.
If I make in-app purchase on IOS, does that mean I get the desktop version as well, or do I need to do the purchases on Modartt's site to licences that work on both desktop and IOS?
I was wondering the same,,,as the Standard to Pro upgrade is cheaper on the iPad ???
€130 (£112.82) on Modartt site and £99 on iPad !!
I'd like to start using this but am unclear what I'll need to run my current setup, as I can't imagine the iPad will provide enough power to run both my keyboard and my interface.
I use a Native Instruments S61 keyboard; I normally power it via USB although I see it also has an external power supply jack.
For my interface, I usually use a Sound Devices USBPre 2, which is also bus-powered.
I assume I'll need to get a USB-C hub with at least two USB-A inputs so I can plug in the keyboard and interface, but all the USB-C hubs I'm finding in online searches are bus-powered and I don't think the iPad can power the hub, the keyboard, and the interface, right?
Is there a better/simpler solution? This is the setup I've used for several years with my laptop, but it would be more convenient to use my iPad.
I assume I'll need to get a USB-C hub with at least two USB-A inputs so I can plug in the keyboard and interface, but all the USB-C hubs I'm finding in online searches are bus-powered and I don't think the iPad can power the hub, the keyboard, and the interface, right?
Is there a better/simpler solution? This is the setup I've used for several years with my laptop, but it would be more convenient to use my iPad.
I got this recently at 40% off:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BXKXRJ4S?ps...ct_details
So far I have not found a way to access alternate tuning on iOS pianoteq standard - can someone let me know how it is done?
Thanks,
Chris
=> nevermind - I needed to reboot my iPad - and BTW - Modartt - you are a fantastic company!!
I'm a bit late to the party with this, as I could really get my head around the point of having PianoTeq on iPad. I don't want to carry an interface around with me, when I can simply use my MacBook with headphones. However... I decided to give it a go, and this is an absolute game changer. I did not realise that there were some digital pianos with a USB audio interface built in - and this is where PianoTeq for mobile devices is absolutely superb.
PianoTeq is now effectively my 'musical sketchbook' that I can plug into a Digital Piano wherever I am, play some stuff, then later on go through the MIDI history and pull out any bits I want to keep or render into an audio file. I can see this being an amazing tool for composers or professional musicians.
The thing it has really highlighted for me is how poor the sampling is in some digital pianos, which are absolutely transformed by turning the local control off, and using PTQ. On the flip side, it's highlighted that some DP's speakers still sound rubbish whether you're using the inbuilt sound engine or PTQ. Here are my findings:
Yamaha CLP735 - Makes a great difference to the playability of this piano, and offers much more clarity to the sound than Yamaha's own sampling.
Yamaha CLP745 - Superb. Massive difference against Yamaha's sound engine, and allows MUCH more tonal and dynamic control of the instrument. Better sound than the CLP735.
Yamaha CLP785 - Great sound, but I don't like the full Grandtouch action. Heavy. Seems overkill to buy a piano this expensive to use primarily as a MIDI controller.
Yamaha P515B - Really nice to play with PTQ. Inbuilt speakers do have limitations, and lacks the power or clarity of the CLP745 speakers. I did have to tweak the touch curve slightly, as it was a bit too lively.
Roland FP90X - Do not reccommend. The FP90X hardware doesn't seem to PTQ much justice at all. I'm not a fan of how the FP90X sounds anyway, and the same annoyances were evident with PTQ
Annoyingly, it seems that the hardware has to catch up a bit. Generally I prefer Roland / Kawai actions to Yamaha - but Kawai don't include audio over USB in any of their pianos. Roland's speakers seem iffy, and Yamaha's actions aren't that nice to play (IMO). If I had to choose a piano to use with PTQ and wanted audio over USB today, it would be the CLP745.
What I actually want is a cabinet style digital piano, with a great action (I LOVE the Casio Grand Hybrid Action), no sound engine / tone generator at all, just a good built in audio interface, and fantastic in-built speakers that I can connect either a laptop or iPad to.
What I actually want is a cabinet style digital piano, with a great action (I LOVE the Casio Grand Hybrid Action), no sound engine / tone generator at all, just a good built in audio interface, and fantastic in-built speakers that I can connect either a laptop or iPad to.
This. The Casio GP series comes close but the inbuilt sound engine is very average imo.
Device: iPad Pro 12.9 (2020)
iOS Version: 16.5
Piano: Roland FP30
Interface: RME ADI DAC FS
USB Hub in use [Amazon link](https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B0C3GDT9XN) - OK (no issues observed)
USB Hub discarded [Amazon link](https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B0BLNDNBG1) - NOT OK (coil whine issue observed)
Findings:
- Xruns (audio dropouts/glitches) occur when Lockdown mode is turned off.
- Lockdown mode is an absolute requirement to prevent xruns.
- There seems to be an undesirable background activity causing issues.
Picture of WIP config:
https://up.tail.ws/IMG_20230604_071231_004.jpg
Just to add to this list:
On my iPhone 12 mini (A14, iOS 16), pianoteq works like a charm. Tiny latency (really non-perceivable) and performance index 88.
Great!
One thing now I'm at it: It would be great to be able to sync presets across devices, either through iCloud (not my favorite option) or directly via pianoteq login.
I've been using Pianoteq on an always on iPhone for a few weeks now... and I love it. :-) have not wanted to connect my laptop, have not wanted to go back to VSL samples. Key was zeroing in on which preset to use per personal preference... Steinway B player for me.
I don't know if anyone else has notice this...
When using P8 on my iPad Air 2 (yes I know not a patch on the latest iPads - but I hate landfill and won't upgrade until the thing is dead), I can play around with it quite happily and there's an immediate response, however once I engage the 'wrecked' slider past a certain point it becomes incredibly sluggish.
There seems an awful lot of processing going on once the slider hits the half-way mark.
SUGGESTION - can the wrecking be set and not calculated on-the-fly - just like you do for the pipes of OrganTeq.
Thanks for your continued development...
I have tried a handful of iOs audio interfaces/DACs and am not satisfied with the amount of latency I'm experiencing. These aren't scientific tests, but I'd guess I'm feeling around 15ms latency from key press to sound with these:
Behringer UCA222 via Apple Camera connection kit + sabrent USB3 hub
UGreen USB audio adapter via Apple Camera connection kit + sabrent USB3 hub
Sabrent USB audio adapter via Apple Camera connection kit + sabrent USB3 hub
I also tried an IK iRigPro both via lightning cable and via usb as above, it was perhaps slightly better, but still pretty laggy,
Finally, I tried my old RME babyface (original) but iOS doesn't see it. On my windows 10 PC, the RME works great, and I have VERY low latency.
I did some googling and found this page at Overloud that talks about latency testing they did. https://www.overloud.com/node/325
They used a latency testing app called Latency Meter, but it doesn't work with iOS newer than v12. https://onyx3.com/LatencyMeter/
I found 1 other latency testing app, but it also doesn't seem to work. https://superpowered.com/latency. That said, here is the data they posted:
Audio Interface Latency (mSec)
IK Multimedia iRig HD (Lightning connection): 14.6
PreSonus AudioBox iTwo: 11.9
IK Multimedia Axe I/O (usb + camera kit): 9.2
Focusrite Scarlett 2i2: 8.9
I'm next going to try out a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 or an MOTU M2 to see if that feels any better.
The M2 has some great stats under tests on windows/mac, so perhaps that will be a winner.
Obviously some actual scientific testing of round trip latency from key press to sound would be the best solution, but I don't have a rig to do that repeatably.
Does anyone else have any more conclusive experience they can share?
I had also been working on getting a Raspi linux pianoteq rig running, but it got put on the back burner due to other projects. I also wonder what kind of latency I can expect on that setup.
I’m wondering if it will be possible to use PTQ with that (Logic Pro) on the iPad. I know, I’m getting greedy!
I think I should follow up, to say PTQ works well on my iPad Pro 2018 running in Logic Pro for iPad. It just worked--just like on my Mac, Logic Pro found the AUv3 that PTQ includes.
Something that is nice about running in the DAW is that I can use the iPad in portrait mode, and the PTQ interface comes up with correct orientation. This allows me to switch easily between forScore (which I usually use in portrait mode) and Logic Pro/PTQ.
I have tried a handful of iOs audio interfaces/DACs and am not satisfied with the amount of latency I'm experiencing. These aren't scientific tests, but I'd guess I'm feeling around 15ms latency from key press to sound with these:
Behringer UCA222 via Apple Camera connection kit + sabrent USB3 hub
UGreen USB audio adapter via Apple Camera connection kit + sabrent USB3 hub
Sabrent USB audio adapter via Apple Camera connection kit + sabrent USB3 hubI also tried an IK iRigPro both via lightning cable and via usb as above, it was perhaps slightly better, but still pretty laggy,
Finally, I tried my old RME babyface (original) but iOS doesn't see it. On my windows 10 PC, the RME works great, and I have VERY low latency.
I did some googling and found this page at Overloud that talks about latency testing they did. https://www.overloud.com/node/325
They used a latency testing app called Latency Meter, but it doesn't work with iOS newer than v12. https://onyx3.com/LatencyMeter/
I found 1 other latency testing app, but it also doesn't seem to work. https://superpowered.com/latency. That said, here is the data they posted:Audio Interface Latency (mSec)
IK Multimedia iRig HD (Lightning connection): 14.6
PreSonus AudioBox iTwo: 11.9
IK Multimedia Axe I/O (usb + camera kit): 9.2
Focusrite Scarlett 2i2: 8.9I'm next going to try out a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 or an MOTU M2 to see if that feels any better.
The M2 has some great stats under tests on windows/mac, so perhaps that will be a winner.Obviously some actual scientific testing of round trip latency from key press to sound would be the best solution, but I don't have a rig to do that repeatably.
Does anyone else have any more conclusive experience they can share?
I had also been working on getting a Raspi linux pianoteq rig running, but it got put on the back burner due to other projects. I also wonder what kind of latency I can expect on that setup.
I'm using 2 different Focusrite Scarlett interfaces (2i4 and 6i6) with my iPad and not having any latency issues (that I notice). I have a 2018 iPad Pro and a 2020 iPad (standard i.e. cheapest). Both work well.
Just to check on something--you don't mention how you are outputting the sound. Directly through speakers from your audio interface? Or wired headphones directly from the audio interface? I know that if I try to use my AirPods the latency is terrible. And any headphones that are doing noise cancellation will also add latency. I find most DACs that are made for consumer purposes (for listening to recorded music) add too much latency (for example the Dragonfly DAC). They don't care about latency.
Also, MIDI should be wired (with USB or the old 5-pin DIN). I get unacceptable latency when I tried wireless. Some here have found wireless midi acceptable, maybe it depends on the specific hardware you are using. In tracking down latency I would say make sure you stick with wired until it's sorted out.
I had also been working on getting a Raspi linux pianoteq rig running, but it got put on the back burner due to other projects. I also wonder what kind of latency I can expect on that setup.
I also have a Raspberry Pi 4 setup running pianoteq. It has a hifiberry dac+ pro installed, and if I try to use that for output I don't get good results. Latency and a weak signal level. Instead, I use it with the Scarlett Focusrite interface and it works very well (in terms of latency), similarly to iPad or Macbook Air.
I've not found any way to get around having a good audio interface. When I'm playing live with it, it's critical to getting the signal level where I need it and maintaining quality, limiting latency, allowing monitoring through headphones, etc. The Scarletts are wonderful.
Update- I just unboxed my MOTU M2, and it works perfectly. I can set latency in Pianoteq to 64 samples (1.3ms) and I can't feel any latency when playing. So amazing that the sounds that I relied on my laptop for- now work with my phone. Hats off to the programmers. Seriously.
I'm using the same powered USB hub, and apple camera connection kit for USB connection to phone.
Listening via wired headphones.
Wow. I'm so impressed right now.
I'm running Pianoteq 8 for iOS as the studio bundle from my main setup and I have to say, I am in love with it. Running this on a new 2022 2tb iPad Pro 12.9" and I'm really impressed, so much so I'd rather use this on the ipad than on my 2019 MBP as it's a more tactile interface. Keep up the amazing work, there's so much we could do with this software.
lew
