Topic: Some improvements/suggestions (Mic and "Note Edit" sections)

Hi,

I've been playing around with mics and ended up having 3 mics very close to one another, it was sort of difficult to pick the one I wanted to move out of the 3 (or four), I haven't found a way of zooming in so I could manage to place them conveniently. I thought it may be a nice feature to have.

Also, there's always 2 tasks every time I want to move a mic, the one of the left screen (x and y axis) and the one on the right screen (z axis), I thought it would be nice to have a 3D model of the piano where you could freely move mics on a single screen. You could even turn the whole piano (X,Y and Z) so you have access to any point of it.

Another thing I was missing is the "reset" function of the whole mic section, meaning that I could have been messing around for a while but I want to get back to the initial setting without reseting every single mic and the rest of features like (level, delay, etc...). That single reset button should also be able to deactivate any additional mics I've added while messing around.

One last thing I'd like to see implemented perhaps is the copy/paste possibility of the single parameters within the "note edit" section, like clicking right button and copying the "impedance" curve so I can paste it on another instrument and so on.

Speaking of "note edit", there are some parameters which are changed by values of 0.01 which is very difficult when done with a mouse, sometimes it just skips from 0.01 to 0.03 and you cannot reach 0.02 unless entering it manually, but the point here is that I want to move the value up and down so I see the global effect until I settle on a sweet spot, that should be possible with the mouse IMO.

Regards,
David

P85>Kawai CA97>Numa XGT>FP90X>LX706
Pianoteq 8 Pro (all instruments) + Organteq 2
i7 4790K W11 64bits + UMC1820 + MTM + DT770 pro X
http://youtube.com/DavidIzquierdoAzzouz

Re: Some improvements/suggestions (Mic and "Note Edit" sections)

davidizquierdo82 wrote:

Hi,

I've been playing around with mics and ended up having 3 mics very close to one another, it was sort of difficult to pick the one I wanted to move out of the 3 (or four), I haven't found a way of zooming in so I could manage to place them conveniently. I thought it may be a nice feature to have.

Also, there's always 2 tasks every time I want to move a mic, the one of the left screen (x and y axis) and the one on the right screen (z axis), I thought it would be nice to have a 3D model of the piano where you could freely move mics on a single screen. You could even turn the whole piano (X,Y and Z) so you have access to any point of it.

Another thing I was missing is the "reset" function of the whole mic section, meaning that I could have been messing around for a while but I want to get back to the initial setting without reseting every single mic and the rest of features like (level, delay, etc...). That single reset button should also be able to deactivate any additional mics I've added while messing around.

One last thing I'd like to see implemented perhaps is the copy/paste possibility of the single parameters within the "note edit" section, like clicking right button and copying the "impedance" curve so I can paste it on another instrument and so on.

Speaking of "note edit", there are some parameters which are changed by values of 0.01 which is very difficult when done with a mouse, sometimes it just skips from 0.01 to 0.03 and you cannot reach 0.02 unless entering it manually, but the point here is that I want to move the value up and down so I see the global effect until I settle on a sweet spot, that should be possible with the mouse IMO.

Regards,
David

valid wish list . For the mic reset, I guess the standard approach is to right click in the mic area and to save the mic preset. It is actually more powerful than the full reset, as it  allows you to save multiple snapshots .
For the small increments of values , my preferred option would be to be able to use the up and down arrow keys to move by the smallest increments. It is the most precise & fastest way to adjust precise parameters and is implemented in some VST's.
To add to your list , I would also like to be able to adjust more precisely with the up/down arrow keys, values on the velocity curves and also be able to load  data  with a text file with a format such  as  [0-0, 25-10 , 50-50, 70,70, 80-90, 90-110, 110-120, 120-127, 127-127]  to automatically load a velocity curve and create the various points. Doing it with the mouse is a nerve wrecking exercise...

Re: Some improvements/suggestions (Mic and "Note Edit" sections)

Some more tweaking and learning, Pianoteq is just amazing but needs lots of exploration I've to say.

While note editing, after saving the new preset, I cannot revert those "note edits" to their original position, I guess Pianoteq considers it as a completely new preset and doesn't discern among edited parameters.

I think it would be convenient to have those edited parameters marked (maybe with an asterisc like before saving) so we could quickly identify edits in case we want to re-work any of them (that's actually my case now).

Also, once identified, would be nice to have an option to revert those edited parameters so we can have the initial curve/line. In some cases the original parameter was flat, but there's no button I can click to just make it flat again, there's "random/smooth/rescale/reset" and the "reset" button won't work after saving because Pianoteq considers the new parameter as the default for the new preset.

On a final note, on the main interface there's no way I can entirely reset the spectrum profile, unless I reset it band by band.

P85>Kawai CA97>Numa XGT>FP90X>LX706
Pianoteq 8 Pro (all instruments) + Organteq 2
i7 4790K W11 64bits + UMC1820 + MTM + DT770 pro X
http://youtube.com/DavidIzquierdoAzzouz

Re: Some improvements/suggestions (Mic and "Note Edit" sections)

davidizquierdo82 wrote:

On a final note, on the main interface there's no way I can entirely reset the spectrum profile, unless I reset it band by band.

There is a Clear All Notes menu entry on the bottom rail.

Re: Some improvements/suggestions (Mic and "Note Edit" sections)

Gilles wrote:
davidizquierdo82 wrote:

On a final note, on the main interface there's no way I can entirely reset the spectrum profile, unless I reset it band by band.

There is a Clear All Notes menu entry on the bottom rail.

Thank you Gilles, I've just discovered that in the "note edit" section but I was meaning the main interface where the 8 vertical sliders are, you can reset single sliders but you cannot reset them all at once if tired of messing around..

The way you've pointed out may serve the purpose for now but I don't think all people have the PRO version, also it could be easier/faster to just add that option directly from the main interface so you don't have to enter "note edit" and scroll down to "specrtrum" everytime you need to reset what you modified within the main interface, not sure I'm explaining myself clear

P85>Kawai CA97>Numa XGT>FP90X>LX706
Pianoteq 8 Pro (all instruments) + Organteq 2
i7 4790K W11 64bits + UMC1820 + MTM + DT770 pro X
http://youtube.com/DavidIzquierdoAzzouz

Re: Some improvements/suggestions (Mic and "Note Edit" sections)

davidizquierdo82 wrote:
Gilles wrote:
davidizquierdo82 wrote:

On a final note, on the main interface there's no way I can entirely reset the spectrum profile, unless I reset it band by band.

There is a Clear All Notes menu entry on the bottom rail.

Thank you Gilles, I've just discovered that in the "note edit" section but I was meaning the main interface where the 8 vertical sliders are, you can reset single sliders but you cannot reset them all at once if tired of messing around..

The way you've pointed out may serve the purpose for now but I don't think all people have the PRO version, also it could be easier/faster to just add that option directly from the main interface so you don't have to enter "note edit" and scroll down to "specrtrum" everytime you need to reset what you modified within the main interface, not sure I'm explaining myself clear

Sorry, I misunderstood that you complained about the 8 sliders in the main GUI and not the Note Edit panel...my mistake.

Re: Some improvements/suggestions (Mic and "Note Edit" sections)

"Alt + click" on individual sliders returns to a preset default state. No way to reset 'groups' but that could be good if it happens in future (I like software functioning by dragging a 'box' to select a range of dots/data etc.. and being able to work on the selected group.. in the interface it may make sense to have a region to Alt-click on to reset all sliders in the pane ?? )


Woah - a lot of other things to dive into too.. I'm posting 'how I do this' responses, with hopefully something per paragraph worth someone's time.

Below, I address each item davidizquierdo82 suggested was not working, because they do work well or to expectation in my exp. (if not just with something like also pressing 'Shift key' etc.)

First though just explaining quickly a general workflow I tend to adhere to with most editing in music or other...

I don't know what your workflow is. Just wanting to help anyone wondering about this kind of thing..

My preset editing workflow might usually be something like this.. having a goal at first, of course.. then..

#1
Begin by loading a preset you wish to edit as source (a default, or one of your own.. don't rule out old edits IF you know they fit a project/idea etc.).

#2
Before doing anything.. save that as a new file.. give it a name to remember in a folder you recognize as a working folder. (I have different paths depending on various things.. but sometimes I like to save into a folder with the year or named something like 'baroque experiments' where I might place various specific types of edited piano/presets within.. or maybe 'temp'. Whatever works for you. Once I get a final edit done, I might save a final file with a final name in a different permanent folder.. there is no correct places, names etc.. but the basics of this all may be remodelled to suit, or to taste.)

#3
In Pianoteq, begin and edit something, anything about it, use controls, experiment, break it, undo or reload etc. (using note-edit or in any other ways available).. don't be precious.. you lose nothing by pushing everything too far and then starting again.. you reach 'event horizons' all over the place when surfing the cusps of the uncanny valleys, take the ride and it's all OK.. don't forget you can make use of the A/B feature to audition your edits, you can freeze certain things etc.. but just begin again from where you liked, or the beginning.. and just keep editing until something special happens which you really like and want to keep. Don't put a time limit on this - and indeed, over years it all becomes easier and even much more enjoyable as you improve etc.. but when you get something sticking out as "better" or "more like how I want it", then let's call this point a 'milestone' or whatever construct makes sense to you and..

#3b
"SAVE AS" and give it an appended number like "My-Edit-NamedFileYada-02"

#4
Return to #1.

Eventually, you get beyond versions and find "This is probably the best leaf on this big tree".. and save a final file in a proper place with a finished name, a good description in the description area etc.


For sure, I'd suggest anyone to not bog down worrying about 19000 tiny edits. You may think you want a long undo list and some like that kind of thing but from personal experience editing in various software, audio and other for decades, for the most part it is deeper, faster and more rewarding to use your ears and let go of overly coddling every tiny visual step.. if you can forget about all these little edits, chances are, you will never need all the snippets later.. just keep worthy versions along the way. Hopefully many may find that quite liberating and is by far the superior workflow IMHO. Trust yourself, your ears and give it time.


Adressing what davidizquierdo82 posted for clarity.. each reply may contain various ideas among more than one paragraph, so hopefully I cover things enough here so nobody needs to point out a lack in the replies below..


davidizquierdo82 wrote:

3 mics very close to one another, it was sort of difficult to pick the one I wanted to move out of the 3 (or four), I haven't found a way of zooming in so I could manage to place them conveniently.

Felt fiddly at first here too but absolutely, you get past that with practice and putting some focus on it for a time (once you get it, it's like the old bicycle thing, you won't forget).. it is likely this will improve in future but for now it actually does work but it's best to take out guesswork and experiment 'exactly' where to click on things.. there are more things in there than addressed in this response but essentially..

Click on the mic capsules.

Even very close together mics can be clicked within what seems just a pixel or 2 apart.

I used to hope clicking around the mics would 'get it' (working fast etc.), however, just don't rush, aim and take it easy.. you get it in time. Clicking just inside the capsule space (where the sound goes in) allows you to drag the mic around.. and if it's exactly in the same spot as other mics (which is possible in software but less possible IRL)...

Sometimes I adjust the GUI to maximum size for just editing the mics.

If it still seems hard, in the box of mics below, turn off any mics 'in the way'. Et voila! There is no substitute for learning by experimentation, asking for and taking some advice on forum and reading the manual.

Do believe me, it's easier/faster and way less painful than IRL. But of course in time it may improve - and a nicer 3D environ could be great - but for now, it does work and like many good things, we learn by trial and error until we get it. I don't see the interface as a bad limitation, esp. once I realized to click on the mic capsules and turn off the mics in the way.. Also do not forget you can link and unlink mics (to move them in tandem by clicking the dot on the dotted line joining them up). Also - don't forget you can right-click, copy-paste data like 'exact' positions etc. Also don't forget to undo anything you do (on a qwerty keyboard 'Ctrl + Z' - or map it to another key/mouse button or other. I recommend a multi-button mouse with mapped functions for faster editing - YMMV).

Also don't forget you can right-click any mic and edit exact numbers.. copy and paste mics as you please and save/load presets...


davidizquierdo82 wrote:

"reset" function of the whole mic section, meaning that I could have been messing around for a while but I want to get back to the initial setting without reseting every single mic and the rest of features like (level, delay, etc...). That single reset button should also be able to deactivate any additional mics I've added while messing around.

You can save mic settings in presets ("Save As" something like >>> 
"MyDreamyStageMicArray-135") and re-load them in - work on them - "Save As" again and add 136 on the end of your next one.. or name them differently, in a preferred scheme of your choosing.

Any time you get something you want to return to, "Save As" and name it like you will remember its purpose (like "Big hall deep but bright distant mics" whatever you were going for).


davidizquierdo82 wrote:

One last thing I'd like to see implemented perhaps is the copy/paste possibility of the single parameters within the "note edit" section, like clicking right button and copying the "impedance" curve so I can paste it on another instrument and so on.

This is doable. Just as you said, right click in the note-edit pane (like impedance), then select copy.. then paste that in when you want.

If you think you're going to make lots of incredibly important curves, you could save them as text files, named to suit "impedance curve with mid cut 012" etc.

But for copy/pasting individual note edits alone? I mean.. would making a note of the number be easier if you indeed are working in fine grained detail? Like, maybe use a 'project' text file, or Word doc, or Knowledge tree or timeline software package to keep tabs like that. What would we do with thousands of individual 'pastable' single note edits? At least a project file full of pasteable 'text' for curves would be more meaningful surely?


davidizquierdo82 wrote:

Speaking of "note edit", there are some parameters which are changed by values of 0.01 which is very difficult when done with a mouse, sometimes it just skips from 0.01 to 0.03 and you cannot reach 0.02 unless entering it manually, but the point here is that I want to move the value up and down so I see the global effect until I settle on a sweet spot, that should be possible with the mouse IMO.

In 'Note Edit', hold 'Shift' key while clicking and moving the mouse (raising, lowering the bars).. you'll see they move by minimum amounts, inlc. 0.01 0.02 etc.

Generally, with most other controls, hold the 'Shift' key down while using mouse scroll wheel - it's something like 1/5th of the movement - much more fine-grained.

With some controls - if you right-click, you can sometimes get minimum values with the scroll wheel when hovering the mouse over the text field with the values in them. (not sure how many, or which - but I do that with  main 'Volume' on the front, for example.. but would be interested in a complete-ish list for sure... Note, on some controls expressed in fractions, this seems to not hold true - but even if).

But.. there is definitely a good reason to have something like 'Ctrl + Shift' to get some more minimal movement on more controls.

But - indeed, in note edit, hold shift and use the mouse to go easily by minimum amounts.

Don't forget though, many, if not most controls (including in note-edit panes) allow right-click to type in an exact value. It can be habit to think "I MUST get the right number with the mouse wheeeeeeeeeel"... but let that go, if you know the number 'must' be 1.21 and not 1.20.. in many software situations, it's just easier to save the blood pressure and just right-click and type the number (it's rarely implemented effectively in any software). Pianoteq is pretty good compared to a lot of other software in this regard IMHO, allowing a balance between loose, tight and exact attenuations.

*[BTW - Edited the correct quote in above]


davidizquierdo82 wrote:

Some more tweaking and learning, Pianoteq is just amazing but needs lots of exploration I've to say.

Absolutely. It is as easy as setting up (not always easy for new PC users) - and sitting down to play. Or as detailed as you want with editing, performing/recording. IMHO still by far the best and most professional piano and instrument software.


davidizquierdo82 wrote:

While note editing, after saving the new preset, I cannot revert those "note edits" to their original position, I guess Pianoteq considers it as a completely new preset and doesn't discern among edited parameters.

Here's what actually happens:

Load a preset.

Make a change in note-edit.

Save the file.

Click undo twice.. once reverts 'save', and the next reverts the edit you made.. and we actually do go back to the previous state.

Notice in the zone where the preset name appears, you see it reverts to whatever you last did on the file-name before the save. You should see the name of the file up there.. just undo and redo to your heart's content.

I can't understand what you mean otherwise.. because I see no deficit here.


davidizquierdo82 wrote:

I think it would be convenient to have those edited parameters marked (maybe with an asterisc like before saving) so we could quickly identify edits in case we want to re-work any of them (that's actually my case now).

My best advice about this, would be to just save milestone versions of your work.. like "MyEdit-impedance-crushr-12".. when you make some change which suits you better, name it "MyEdit-impedance-crushr-13" and so on.

It's a nightmare to even care about the thousands of edits individually. Instead, I recommend working with your ears foremost, and only secondarily by the numbers you see on the interface.

If you lose fear/tension/anxiety about the minutia, the journey becomes all the more pleasant and beneficial to you. You will find no good reason to zoom in on individual elements alone, to save a blizzard of undo blips in a sea of edits and saved files.

Instead, just save a milestone preset when it sounds better or more to your purpose.. name it accordingly with appended number.. cruising through a half dozen from a long finished project yealds rewards, whereas fishing for infinitely frustrating 'non-descript' undos can be worse than being just out of context. But.. that's just my view from optimizing my workflow with software and hardware tools in audio for over 4 decades.. plenty feel they like to do things differently - just hoping some readers might find some of this useful and hopefully I can save a few thousand people each some thousands of hours. (or a fraction will do I suppoooooose).

BIG HELP here is writing in the preset 'description' area about the edit. Can't be said enough, you could keep tabs on progress this way without needing disparate snippets you forget about anyway (and which sit out of context all over, no description etc.. and if you say "Yeah, but you can hear the diff when you apply those"... OK so, keep editing with your ears and stop fidgetting with snippets and get more done to your liking would be a reasonable response).

Any whole saved preset IS full of snippets the way you liked them.. you've named it, described what you did.. what more is required? Just open that last incremental save (or two, to A/B test), and pick up where you left off. Revert to a prior version if it sounds not like you remembered or whatever things might occur - but don't forget also, DO use the A/B functionality.. easily you can hear "Which of these 2 is definitely preferred"... see saw through your recent saved edited presets, then keep progress going on the 'best' of these.. to me, there's no better way forward, than getting a definite handle on 'how to organize your digital editing workflow'. (same-ish no matter the software imo - my old PCs were littered with insidiously futile 'productivity' software, when only a few products actually DID the things needed.. I consider Pianoteq one of the best in allowing a huge number of ways to work on so many aspects and overall.)


A lot to dissect - and I so much appreciate Gilles replying with that good advice too..

So often with Pianoteq, much of what we want to do, well, we can.

Sometimes, it's because we missed 'the way(s)' or misunderstood for ages about something or other.. or we may not remember, or know how something may have been linked to a real piano's behaviour, or a software aspect my differ from some other things we know.. but in a package, it's full of surprises, ways and means and in this way, exceptional.

If we just want to sit down and play a fine piano or other among the instruments, we can just do that too.

Hope some of that helped someone here or there.


*[BTW - Edited the correct quote in above]

Last edited by Qexl (18-04-2023 22:25)
Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: Some improvements/suggestions (Mic and "Note Edit" sections)

Thank you Qexl for the elaborated reply, it's very enlightening and useful in all aspects.

I see there was a way of copy/paste note edit parameters within the curve area, didn't pay attention before since I was trying to right click on the parameter from the scroll list. Ticked that box.

However, I think the rest of "improvements" I was suggesting are nice to have in the future, not implying that Pianoteq is a faulty software whatsoever, I cannot find a better word than "improvements" even they're actually not, but you can understand what I mean I guess. Just to clarify that I'm in no ways critisizing Modartt or their work, so we're both in the same page.

I understand and in fact practice to some extent the workflow you've described in your post, saving the mic snapshot is a perfect workaround yet I'd still love to see a somehow better interface for that, as I sais perhaps a 3D model of the whole piano where you can easily move xyz and place the mics in a single screen, it doesn't harm anyone even what we have now is perfectly functional, but that's not what I was discussing in my original post, I'm a happy user but that doesn't mean we cannot ask for little "improvements" also when we can get there by other means like shortcuts etc.

BTW I'm not a big fan of shortcuts because my workflow doesn't really include a keyboard since I'm sitting on a console type DP and a mouse is all I have in the little surface left upon it, and just before you say anything, not Pianoteq's fault but why not to implement further ways of getting things done for those who don't have the same setup

Workarounds are nice, but having the immediate option to do this and that is also nice, even we're leaning on our ears to design sounds etc. others may not or just cannot (or don't know how), the point is there's no problem by considering different ways of doing things, your is fine but I wouldn't buy it hundred percent (with all due respect), although I've learnt a couple of things indeed and I'm fully thankful for your effort and good will

P85>Kawai CA97>Numa XGT>FP90X>LX706
Pianoteq 8 Pro (all instruments) + Organteq 2
i7 4790K W11 64bits + UMC1820 + MTM + DT770 pro X
http://youtube.com/DavidIzquierdoAzzouz

Re: Some improvements/suggestions (Mic and "Note Edit" sections)

davidizquierdo82 wrote:

Just to clarify that I'm in no ways critisizing Modartt or their work, so we're both in the same page.

Definitely, that's the default setting Criticism can be read by some as negative - to me, ideas are meant to be discussed, stress tested etc.

You think Modartt has deficiencies, and you state what those are.

davidizquierdo82 wrote:

Workarounds are nice, but having the immediate option to do this and that is also nice

Everything I said is not really a 'workaround'. They are ways designed to get things done. All PC software will offer shortcuts with keyboard modifiers.

You choose to not use a keyboard, but I solved that too by suggesting a multi-button mouse (to map keyboard modifiers and macros to).

That's I think that's all up to you tbh.

I feel that to suggest complex PC software should work with just a basic mouse, is not a thing - but can be done as I say with a multi-button one as a secondary option..

I'd definitely consider a portable PC keyboard for on top of the dpaino (I had a full sized one on top my old Kawai upright dpiano) or multi-button mouse.. either would help for most of your issues for sure.. otherwise, in all seriousness, I feel you are just cheating yourself. Don't resist good advice or "I'm not buying" etc.. I see you like an elephant on a chain, and I just want to cut that chain so you can get with doing your thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKiIroiCvZ0

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: Some improvements/suggestions (Mic and "Note Edit" sections)

Thank you Qexl for the good advice, the elephant is taking good note of it

On a side note, I've been trying to save the mic's preset as you suggested so I could use it as a "reset" option after messing around with the mics and rest of parameters. I saved it under a new preset bank called it "My mics".

Turns out if I enter the "preset manager" to apply that snapshot to the current piano, I cannot find the saved preset under "My mics", the bank has been created correctly under "all banks" right on the bottom of the list, but it's empty whereas if I toggle to the mini-preset view and select "mics", I can then find my saved preset.

Not sure this is how it's meant to be or it's just a little bug, you could try at your side and confirm perhaps..

P85>Kawai CA97>Numa XGT>FP90X>LX706
Pianoteq 8 Pro (all instruments) + Organteq 2
i7 4790K W11 64bits + UMC1820 + MTM + DT770 pro X
http://youtube.com/DavidIzquierdoAzzouz

Re: Some improvements/suggestions (Mic and "Note Edit" sections)

NP, Sure thing.. (BTW excellent work!, I think you found a bug! below...)

Just to be sure we're doing the same thing, and for anyone else to follow along, I'll add a/b/c/etc..

a
First started Pianoteq

b
loaded a normal full preset, next

c
went into mic pane and moved a mic (to make it different to existing default)

d
right-clicked in the mic pane and chose "Save As"

e
typed a name in the preset name text field

f
typed a bank (this can create a new one 'bank' if what you type is unique - they should show up in the 'preset management pane' in case anyone who hasn't done it may not expect that)

g
again right-clicked in the mic pane and this time chose "Manage presets"

h
In there, I see "View Full Presets" up top right side, and under it, the list of selectors, with "Mics" already select (from already being in the mic pane)..

i
Below where it says "All Banks", you should see all of your existing banks, the new one may be right at bottom of the list

j
@david, I think that's prob where you got to.. here, when I click on my new bank, it does display the new mic preset on the left list.

And at that point I guess the main takeaway could be to work from within the mic pane, when managing the mic presets from in there (I seem to do only that way).. because for sure you hit what looks like a bug, because like you, I do not see my new mic preset in the 'main' preset manager.

I'm doing that on Windows, in case others with Mac or other might want to test it.

Nice!! Maybe you want to report that critter?

Cheers!

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: Some improvements/suggestions (Mic and "Note Edit" sections)

Those are the steps I've followed too, I even did it in two different computers (W10 and W11), same result, I couldn't find the mic's saved preset when clicking on the created bank.

I also tried saving the mic preset by directly clicking on the save button of the main interface (floppy disk icon), it allows you to only save mic preset (instead the whole modified instrument) and also to do it in a new bank, same result though.

Not a big deal at all but would be nice to have it amended, not sure how to address Modartt in this regard.. feel free to do so if you'd like and got the experience already

P85>Kawai CA97>Numa XGT>FP90X>LX706
Pianoteq 8 Pro (all instruments) + Organteq 2
i7 4790K W11 64bits + UMC1820 + MTM + DT770 pro X
http://youtube.com/DavidIzquierdoAzzouz

Re: Some improvements/suggestions (Mic and "Note Edit" sections)

[edit to add 2 paras]

Overlooked this.. on main preset list, click at top "View mini presets".. then you can see the mics you save.

Mostly I save/load while I'm 'inside' the panes I work in.. but for the main preset list.. although it may be nice to see all presets listed at once, or via a filter (maybe not quite a bug), you can see the mics, if you first click the view mini presets button top right, the select 'mics'.


Bug report Done. (but maybe not a bug but feature request, to see all presets unfiltered instead)

Don't forget you can see/load your mic presets when you are in the mic pane, right-click in the mic pane display area, select 'manage presets'.

Cheers.

Last edited by Qexl (24-04-2023 17:22)
Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: Some improvements/suggestions (Mic and "Note Edit" sections)

Qexl wrote:

Overlooked this.. on main preset list, click at top "View mini presets".. then you can see the mics you save.

Yes, that's what I mean in my previous post, I can see my saved mics in the mini view while they're not visible within the main view, althoug the bank is created correctly, but always empty..

That aside, I've been checking the string length on the note edit section, it's a flat line according to the preset length on the main interface (the "string length" slider), that's a bit confusing because there's no exact layout of the actual lengths of the rest of the strings, it's a bit difficult to accurately modify other strings if you don't know their initial parameters..

I understand the horizontal line indicates the length of the 1st bass string (longest?), I can play around by changing the rest of string lengths up and down but I would be changing the whole character of the piano and not only slightly since we don't know where we're starting off really..

I think it would be nice to have all lengths in the graphic so we can choose which section/notes we want to increase/decrease, so we have a starting point (specific length) to modify.

PS. Thanks for resporting the "bug"

P85>Kawai CA97>Numa XGT>FP90X>LX706
Pianoteq 8 Pro (all instruments) + Organteq 2
i7 4790K W11 64bits + UMC1820 + MTM + DT770 pro X
http://youtube.com/DavidIzquierdoAzzouz

Re: Some improvements/suggestions (Mic and "Note Edit" sections)

Indeed, not all new users will know to click 'view mini presets', and an empty folder instead of seeing their new mic preset may confuse.

Sent a possible bug report.. the issue is, your new bank, let's say you called it "My-Mics" or something.. the correct folder of course but when clicking it in the main preset view, it shows nothing inside.. thus 'possible bug' reported.

In time, we learn where things are best done for the ways we like to work.. I like working inside the mic pane to load in presets for example - at least in my case I think it just saves time - and I personally didn't think to access 'mini presets' via the front end.. because when working on these, I'm inside the mic pane, or inside the FX pane, so to me, just easier to load presets from there - and I guess never think "I should see" any mini presets in main preset view - but others may indeed think it's odd and have to traverse "why?".. and will do that and feel their new mic presets are lost - but indeed, just a small thing but can mean some may not 'get it' - but clicking "view mini presets" and working within the specific panes works fine too..

Not sure if maybe something will be changed? Maybe just a greyed text message in the left side of the main preset viewer, when a user clicks on an empty folder or one with only 'mini presets' inside, to say something like..

"This main preset management view is for complete presets. Click 'view mini presets' above to see your microphone, FX or other mini presets, which can be filtered to type for easy selecting"

That way, the learning curve is satisfied, and users making their first mic arrays, will know it is not lost, but that they can click the mini preset view. Simple but maybe all I can think of.. as doing other things like 'not' displaying folders without full presets would be more obviously strange to new users who still have not encountered the mini presets view. I'm pretty snow-blind to the button "View mini presets".. if anything maybe it could be a little more obviously a button too IDK.


Re String Length inside Note Edit...

I don't mind not seeing individual string lengths.. It means, we can logically construct humanly possible mathematical differentiations for all the different string lengths we want to, using a 'baseline' or the max overall string length. Things like "I want to make all strings 10% shorter".. done with a small move of the tool.. but if all strings were represented at different lengths, is that just 'representational graphics?' - nice though to see that 'curve' perhaps? I like it but I don't feel drawn to working with that way instinctively.. just how I see it and imagine this may the reason it's displayed this way (to make maths to do things with all strings easier for us mortal humans).

I'd say it's a fun idea to be able to see exact string lengths.. (maybe in future and alternative view is a worthwhile possibility?) but still, I'm not sure I'd need, or really want that personally.


Generally, I feel there's much discussion among users starting out with editing things, with some similar and understandable notions attached. Often, I see a desire for 'better', or to have something more 'correct' within various presets.. and that's indeed fine.

In broad strokes though, there's a lot of cross purposes and 'best', 'better' or 'correct' is individually relevant, only in as far as someone believes that others must also think 'the same way' about what 'better' etc. means. And this is demonstrably objectively impossible. Subjectively, everyone hears differently, in their different rooms/spaces and have differing tastes, repertoires and expectations and limitations (from speakes/audio equipment etc.).

Maybe in a perfect space with great equipment it's more possible to say "This is better"... but, when played on someone's laptop, they may not hear the bass which makes a certain preset/edit "soft" - they may only hear mids and some pin-prick trebles and thus say "Horrible".

Various ways to view it - but apart from acceptable norms (Venn diagram "popular" overlapping with "quality" - many ways to overthink it maybe), there is a lot of room for someone's "good enough" piano to be someone else's "WOW excellent!" piano and the inverse. 

In all reality, as with audio, there is no 'perfect visual' for anything, in making a modelled preset. We can know numbers, and that's great and important (esp. in remembering how far we like to move certain sliders around for example - we can remember to repeat these edits better.).

But, let's say you've made a dozen changes to a preset and now you're editing string length.. when changing a string, it won't matter if it's expressed as exactly 1.8metres long, or a number tied to the overall length (mathematically, it is easier to work in the latter, if making decisions based on percentages relevant to the max string length number, which can give great starting points to massive changes).

The trick, which is real, is only exposed by the fact that no 2 pianos/presets will respond the same ways to any given tweak to design components like string length.. each is uniquely going to do something different.

If you change some strings' length, each of those will individually shed the overtones they had, and radiate a different assortment into the model (which, esp. with sustain pedal held down) will assert some unique character effecting differences.. tiny per string, but add up (if looking for massive effect, using the Spectrum Profile on the main interface can truly alter the overall timber more instantly, and possibly with a more human-understandable, and directly heard, consequence for each alteration.. whereas altering one string at a time might add up to a long edit session where we may not be able to easily expect a positive result, and backing out and beginning again may take a long time, if we persist with the effort - so in effect for things like string length, I feel we might want to deeply experiment.. and the current view where string length is hitched to the max length can be more human readable/recallable etc.).

That main trick though in all of this, is our ears.

That's all.. I'm sure some mathematical attempts may be made to create various components of any piano model, to make it 'make sense' per string mathematically, per balance of X to Y and so on.. but like any physical piano, it's the incredible 'fuzz' on reality, which means, each one is different.. within bounds, and as they relate to the neighboring stings etc. (and this may be different per piano/preset/instrument etc. based on physics.)

But - definitely, the fascination for me, is not so much looking at numbers - but moving the string length (or any other controls) and 'hearing' is this what I want? For sure, keep at it, if you think "I'm going to make them all individual lengths, one by one".. it's not impossible - and you may finish and listen and remark to yourself "Wow, strange.. I wonder what else I can do to now mitigate the way it now sounds" (often radical changes of course mean either undoing, attenuating, or making an 'adversarial' change to other controls).

I believe there's a mistake in thinking about it as "I will make a more perfect piano" - because, I believe what Philippe has given us in most pianos, is quite wonderfully regulated pianos, and some reasonably detailed alternatives to highly regulated ones. The main presets are about as good as you need any piano to get (in terms of lining up perfect elements measured, incl. string lengths as they talk to the engine etc.), and the alternative presets each give little fuzzy alterations to many factors, on surface and in-engine.. and this gives us many presets on any piano to get busy editing from..

But, there is no perfect, or correct piano anywhere in the world. Persons all like something different - and though many will say they love Piano X, many will also say Y. Even when a piano (or anything else in the world, maybe like a Bugatti or Rolls Royce etc..) is often though of as 'the best', well, there is always a large number who think different and prefer another and maybe dislike the very things which 'make' some things loved.. maybe a person hates smooth cars, and to them a Ferrari is better But, maybe a certain model of a car, with certain tyres on, and when on a certain kind of tarmac... other may prefer a rally car, with dirt tyres on tracks with mud and jumps.. there is no correct 'car' if you factor in, there are different roads we each are driving on - similar with pianos (also worth mentioning, after recording any piano, there's a further world of possibilities too of course, whether to do more work to the audio.)

But - all that is about saying "edit with your ear" first.. if you dislike an experiment (like making 1 or more individual strings different lengths), back out and start again.. or just really listen while moving 1.. and know "OK that makes a change I like".. but you will 'risk' doing it to the string next to it, knowing that 'may' alter something you just did on the prior string.. as they each will influence the overall timbre as you edit more strings. If it over time 'gets away from our vision', this is kind of the same, as if we openned the lid of a real piano.. we are hearing the kinds of things which may happen if we individually shortenned some strings.. and perhaps, it may or may not work.. but the experiment is possible with a good mathematical level of certainty that what we hear is quite accurately what could happen.

I guess, last suggestion about string length edits.. it may be refreshing to zoom up out of individual strings to the entire spectrum profile.

Here's a quick example - just made a "Big Toy Piano" from the NY Steinway D.. mostly, main spectrum profile, a soft velocity curve, some basic interractional elements (longer strings to reduce inharmonicity implict with the other edits involved, hammers harder/louder, impedance, direct sound duration, cutoff, Q, duplex scale, sympathetic resonance and some other minor things like strike point.)

This doesn't give a 'better' piano.. just one which could without much further work (esp. less in audio post production) might be usable, to me, for maybe the kinds of pianos you hear in commercials (aghast!) or 'in the area' of felt pianos and soft contemporary music, without the Celeste pedal yet engaged to make it 'fluffy' yet chimy. I think most of the characteristics of it are down to the spectrum profile edits on the main front interface, the rest tweaking to 'recover' or 'push' other elements.. and 100%.. no numbers looked at.. just moving controls to hear "Ah yep.. that's going where I want it to go".. and I ended up with a simple piano sound for intimate twinkle-twinkle piano, which I envision mostly being for 'tracks', not solo classical.. but is an example of going for a goal and attaining 'that goal'.

Fundamentally, it may be erroneous to seek that kind of holy grail vision of "perfect piano".. because, maybe there is not such a thing in existence, and it's valuable to know how the controls 'sound', so we can manage to go somewhere towards a piano with certain characteristics we seek for example for a particular repertoire. Anyway, worth thinking about in terms of narrowing down "what am I tweaking for?" into some more definable things.. and of course, not saying don't try for some ideals of perfection.. just that, to get there it might be a fine ideal, to try aiming for some specific things, working out what controls do specific things and not be too concerned about how the numbers are presented, but more so in 'what do I hear' when moving a slider - not trying to make this overly verbose - but hopefully constructively giving some roads to take instead of feeling stuck at forks in the road.

We might make some extreme edits among many, only to 'nearly like' what we have done, but know that "Oh dear, it has some terrible candy ringing sound I can't work out how to remove".. but often, it's just a matter of doing the most common task with 'string length', and that is to overall lengthen, or reduce length overall. In many cases, just making the strings all longer (with a single click then drag) can make them all less inharmonic, or by making them all shorter, make them all have more inharmonicity to 'spice up' a set of edits where we might think "Oh, maybe I've removed some personality in this one". So, longer = less inharmonicity and possible nicer 'less jagged' sound.. shorter = more inharmonicity and possibly nicer 'more character'. And like all the above, most probably on a per piano, per preset and per user basis, per piece in any given repertoire.

In this below example, it's a case of editing for a certain character piano with a kind of contemporary feel without being a fully-felt-piano sound, but in the area.. It got to a point where I was hearing "OK nearby".. but by lengthening strings (from 2.7, to 2.93) it reduced some 'candy' from overtones.. and got me where I wanted it. That's my most common 'use case' for string length alteration.


Audio - both extracted using the same MIDI so you can hear playing the same way can sound 'normal' or 'relaxed' or 'held back' even though velocity in MIDI is the same:

Big Toy Piano demo

Audo of the default NY Steinway Model D preset it was made from:

The original NY Steinway Model D before editing


FXP to load into Pianoteq to play:

Big Toy Piano preset


Although not as extremely 'toy' as the small one in Pianoteq, just to me is inspired by the idea of "What would happen if we just magnify magically the tiny one into a larger size?". No reality based edits in this.. just 'inspiration' as guide, and I ended up with a piano which could be used in a lot of ways, and sort of does have some nice things about the toy piano, even if kind of expressionistically rather than exactly.

It's probably obvious, that Big Toy Piano would be useless for a lot of repertoire, perhaps is not likely anyone's idea of a good piano - but it will do fine for certain things I do - and the goal in such things is often not about highlighting an 'excellent piano' (like solo classical for example).. but as a layer in tracks upon tracks. It's easier to use something like this piano sound for certain music, rather than playing a wonderful NY Steinway D as it is, and to then have to work on it's output in a DAW to make it more cloudy/fluffy/intimately pushed in certain ways.

For anyone fascinated with pianos, audio and Pianoteq, I can't say enough, all the above is why I love this product so much. It's the most useful music software in my world - and the most impressive (among very impressive tools).

Just hoping all that text wall helps some people become inspired to try some things out. And as I try to remember to do these days, also want, as a takeaway, to say the defaults are indeed wonderful and quite impossible to 'better' IMHO now.. it's all about getting something extra/different/focussed for specific musical reasons along our timeline.

All the best.

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors