Topic: Questions about half-pedaling.

A book I was reading said "The thicker, heavier strings of the low notes require a greater amount of damping than the lighter treble strings" (Improve Your Piano Playing, Dr. John Meffen, 2007.) and so it follows, when using partial or half pedaling, the heavier lower strings should have a longer resonation time then the treble strings. This allow you to use the half pedal technique instead of sostenuto pedal. (I suppose, in a perfect model, the amount of resonance on each note during half pedaling would be based on how the piano is strung.)

I do not notice a distinct left to right variance in dampening effect in Pianoteq during half pedaling, and I see no way to adjust it to make the effect more pronounced, if desired. I only  know about digital pianos, and so I wonder if any else has knowledge or an opinion on this?

Lenovo Flex 14 2in1, Windows11,  Pianoteq 8 (Steinway D & B, Petrof, C. Bechstein, Steingraeber),  MobileSheets for windows, Casio PX-780, generic page turn pedal.

Re: Questions about half-pedaling.

Willfredwin wrote:

[...] I do not notice a distinct left to right variance in dampening effect in Pianoteq during half pedaling, and I see no way to adjust it to make the effect more pronounced, if desired.[...]

I don't hear a difference either.
Even in a full release of the pedal there should be a difference.

Willfredwin wrote:

[...]I only  know about digital pianos, and so I wonder if any else has knowledge or an opinion on this?

Re: Questions about half-pedaling.

The dampers in the bass range are also heavier and wider than in the upper range, hence the damping duration ratio is not as high as it could be expected from a first approximation. If you check the ratio damping duration(no pedal)/damping duration(half pedal), you will observe it is approximately the same from bass to treble. Hence bass lasts a little bit longer with half pedal, in the same way as they do with no pedal. It may be more evident to observe it when disabling the sympathetic resonances which modify the decay globally. There is also a tricky effect to take into account: single and double wedged dampers have an accelerated dampening effect when they start falling down between the strings, contrarily to the flat dampers in the medium and upper range.

I am not sure half pedalling can work as an efficient sostenuto substitution, because if you really want a bass note to last a few bars, then the related damper needs to be almost away from the strings, and so will be the upper range dampers too. But I may be wrong.

Re: Questions about half-pedaling.

Willfredwin wrote:

A book I was reading said "The thicker, heavier strings of the low notes require a greater amount of damping than the lighter treble strings" (Improve Your Piano Playing, Dr. John Meffen, 2007.) and so it follows, when using partial or half pedaling, the heavier lower strings should have a longer resonation time then the treble strings. This allow you to use the half pedal technique instead of sostenuto pedal. (I suppose, in a perfect model, the amount of resonance on each note during half pedaling would be based on how the piano is strung.)

I do not notice a distinct left to right variance in dampening effect in Pianoteq during half pedaling, and I see no way to adjust it to make the effect more pronounced, if desired. I only  know about digital pianos, and so I wonder if any else has knowledge or an opinion on this?

Philippe is right , half pedalling is not 100% substitute for sustenato. First reason is that when crisp stacato is required on top of the held notes , there is still some sustain with half pedalling. Secondly in live circumstances when you have to play on an instrument ( acoustic or digital) which is not yours , this will be very hasardeous as half pedalling vary from one  instrument to the next so the effect is not guaranteed if you are not used to the piano you are performing with.

Re: Questions about half-pedaling.

The book describes it thus...

"Half Pedalling

The term does not mean that a pedal is to be brought half way up. It refers to the correct use of the sustaining pedal to achieve effects that would otherwise require a sostenuto pedal. The thicker, heavier strings of the low notes require a greater amount of damping than do the lighter treble strings. The loud pedal must be fully raised for a fraction of a second and then fully depressed again so as to obliterate the higher notes and allow the lower ones to continue sounding. As an example of how half pedalling works, with your left hand strike very firmly an octave G, its top note being an octave and a half below middle C, while directly pedalling it. Take your hand off the keys and, with a quick flick of your ankle, raise and lower the sustaining pedal so swiftly that the octave is slightly, but not completely, damped. Continue raising and lowering the sustaining pedal, again with quick flicks of the ankle, and see how often you can do it before you damp the notes completely. Do this exercise a few times to get the feel of the process.

Now play a chord of G, your left hand filling out the octave you have just played with a B and a D, and your right hand playing a similar G chord starting an octave and a half above middle C. Strike the complete chord using both hands simultaneously while directly pedalling it. Take your hands off the keys and, with a quick flick of your ankle, raise and lower the sustaining pedal so swiftly that the sound of the upper chord is damped, but most of the lower chord’s sound sings on. Keep on practising this until you can cut the upper chord quickly and completely while still allowing the lower chord to sing on. As mentioned earlier, sections of Rachmaninoff’s famous Prelude in C sharp minor and many similar passages in other works will benefit from accurate half pedalling."

Someone on a good evenly-regulated acoustic piano could give this technique a whirl and see if the book's description is right. I am not sure how important it is for regular playing, but having a way to keep the bass line humming while the treble side quiets out might have some merit. (It could be the author's piano was adjusted so the bass dampers drop a little later, thereby creating the desired effect.)

Lenovo Flex 14 2in1, Windows11,  Pianoteq 8 (Steinway D & B, Petrof, C. Bechstein, Steingraeber),  MobileSheets for windows, Casio PX-780, generic page turn pedal.

Re: Questions about half-pedaling.

OK, I understand now what you were meaning, it is a matter of wording, I would rather call that re-pedalling but I am not native English speaking so... although there are quite a few threads on Piano World forum (see https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads...case.html) using this term. I would rather understand partial pedal as being static, whereas re-pedalling is dynamic.

Bill Evans for example has being using a lot re-pedalling, but certainly not for sostenuto, just for the beauty of block chords being interrupted for a fraction of second (with a fast decay) and continuing ringing after the pedal has been pressed down again.

Re: Questions about half-pedaling.

Willfredwin wrote:

The book describes it thus...

"Half Pedalling

The term does not mean that a pedal is to be brought half way up. It refers to the correct use of the sustaining pedal to achieve effects that would otherwise require a sostenuto pedal. The thicker, heavier strings of the low notes require a greater amount of damping than do the lighter treble strings. The loud pedal must be fully raised for a fraction of a second and then fully depressed again so as to obliterate the higher notes and allow the lower ones to continue sounding. As an example of how half pedalling works, with your left hand strike very firmly an octave G, its top note being an octave and a half below middle C, while directly pedalling it. Take your hand off the keys and, with a quick flick of your ankle, raise and lower the sustaining pedal so swiftly that the octave is slightly, but not completely, damped. Continue raising and lowering the sustaining pedal, again with quick flicks of the ankle, and see how often you can do it before you damp the notes completely. Do this exercise a few times to get the feel of the process.

Now play a chord of G, your left hand filling out the octave you have just played with a B and a D, and your right hand playing a similar G chord starting an octave and a half above middle C. Strike the complete chord using both hands simultaneously while directly pedalling it. Take your hands off the keys and, with a quick flick of your ankle, raise and lower the sustaining pedal so swiftly that the sound of the upper chord is damped, but most of the lower chord’s sound sings on. Keep on practising this until you can cut the upper chord quickly and completely while still allowing the lower chord to sing on. As mentioned earlier, sections of Rachmaninoff’s famous Prelude in C sharp minor and many similar passages in other works will benefit from accurate half pedalling."

Someone on a good evenly-regulated acoustic piano could give this technique a whirl and see if the book's description is right. I am not sure how important it is for regular playing, but having a way to keep the bass line humming while the treble side quiets out might have some merit. (It could be the author's piano was adjusted so the bass dampers drop a little later, thereby creating the desired effect.)

One of the best musical examples where sustenato makes a big difference with half pedalling is Clair de Lune Debussy specially in the tempo rubato section ( bar 15+ ) where you need to use sustenato to sustain the bass notes and have full resonance with the chords in the right hand with sustain  with  change  of . sustain pedal before the last 2 quavers. In this section  the ideal it to use both sustenato and sustain. You can attempt it with only half pedalling but the result no matter how good is the half pedalling won't be as good as with both pedals being used. 
Also worth mentioning that many scores written prior to the invention of the sustenato, for instances bach organ transcription work by Liszt were possible to be interpreted with half pedalling only because of the different decay of fortepianos. Most of these transcriptions are nowadays next to be impossible to play on modern grand (digital or acoustic) without proper sustenato pedal.