Topic by gregoryor

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Topic: Controller with Yamaha-type action?

I know controllers have been discussed on this forum ad infinitum, and I have been reading the discussions with interest, but have one more question.  I just got a used Yamaha C1 acoustic, and am in heaven playing it.  This has increased my dissatisfaction with my old Kurzweil PC1X used to play Piantoteq Pro on my computer.  The three problems I have identified so far with the Kurzweil, which I never really liked, are the short keybed travel, the lack of graded action, leading to overly bright bass tones, and the "light" action, which is the exact opposite of the C1, which requires a pretty heavy hand to play (and I've got me some pretty heavy hands!).

Consensus on these forums for most piano-like controller seems to be among Kawai VPC1, Studiologic Numa X and Roland FP-90X, all in the $2k to $2.4K range.  Having just spent $10,000 on a new acoustic piano, I'm wondering if people are happy with any controller in the next step down in price ($1500 range).

I also can't find any controllers besides the VPC1 that mention "graded-hammer" action.  Is it really the only one?

Also, I don't care about onboard sounds.  I would use it only for playing Pianoteq, so action and midi translation of that action are key.
Thoughts?
Thanks for your input!

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: Controller with Yamaha-type action?

gregoryor wrote:

..
I also can't find any controllers besides the VPC1 that mention "graded-hammer" action.  Is it really the only one?

Also, I don't care about onboard sounds.  I would use it only for playing Pianoteq, so action and midi translation of that action are key.
Thoughts?
Thanks for your input!

I'm guessing you don't actually mean graded hammer action as graded hammer action is the most common form of hammer action, indeed those keyboards which have hammer action and yet the keys are not graded are actually the exception to the rule.

Graded just means it is heavier in the bass octaves and lighter in the highest registers. Even my bottom of the range Casio digital piano is graded hammer action.

One hammer keyboard I'm aware of that actually doesn't have graded action is the entry level Studiologic "Studio" hammer action which comes in 73 and 88 key versions. The main concession here perhaps intentional in order to shave weight off the supposedly portable keyboard.

The main difference with the VPC1 I suggest is the extra long key mechanisms, with an action size similar to a real grand piano key.

Another option might be to pick up an old or discounted Casio hybrid grand. However you would be paying for all the extra built-in sounds, built-in loudspeakers, fancy cabinetry etc.

Vpc1 does appear to be the only game in town at the price point if you want to top of the range MIDI controller in terms of piano action only. Others have features people may prefer. Still pretty decent keyboard action, coupled to mono after touch, pitch and modulation controls.

But if you want the closest thing to a real piano at that price point I think it is the VPC1 or alternatively finding the space for a used well preserved Casio hybrid grand - possibly.

Then again you might luck out with a second hand MP11SE.

Casio may now these days refer to their
progressively differently weighted hammer action as "scaled" as opposed to "graded" hammer action.
I don't remember this subtle change in terminology. One article I saw claimed the scaled was supposedly slightly more advanced. For all I know it could just be a marketing difference.

Last edited by Key Fumbler (01-04-2023 19:40)

Reply by gregoryor

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Re: Controller with Yamaha-type action?

Thanks for the input!  And good to know about the ubiquity of graded, scaled, or progressive action!  In a pianoworld forum, the PC1X was specifically called out for not having "progressive" action:

**Please note that NONE of the Kurzweil PC1X, 2X or 3X have a progressive hammer action like the Yamahas do**

So my keyboard may be the exception.  Of course, it was released in 2003, so maybe that wasn't even a thing back then.  Holy cow!  I just looked up a 2004 review of the PC1X, and it's not even described as a hammer action; just "weighted action"!  I may be much further behind the curve than I thought!  No wonder I've been so unhappy with my setup!

As for terminology, it looks like Casio's mid-range are described as having "scaled" hammer action, as you mention, but their higher range replace "scaled" with "Smart Hybrid", which is clearly EVEN MORE ADVANCED than scaled action, so, new marketing term to learn!

Ooh!  Still much to think about, but at least graded action isn't going to be a problem in most cases.  Thanks!

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: Controller with Yamaha-type action?

gregoryor wrote:

Thanks for the input!  And good to know about the ubiquity of graded, scaled, or progressive action!  In a pianoworld forum, the PC1X was specifically called out for not having "progressive" action:

**Please note that NONE of the Kurzweil PC1X, 2X or 3X have a progressive hammer action like the Yamahas do**

So my keyboard may be the exception.  Of course, it was released in 2003, so maybe that wasn't even a thing back then.  Holy cow!  I just looked up a 2004 review of the PC1X, and it's not even described as a hammer action; just "weighted action"!  I may be much further behind the curve than I thought!  No wonder I've been so unhappy with my setup!

As for terminology, it looks like Casio's mid-range are described as having "scaled" hammer action, as you mention, but their higher range replace "scaled" with "Smart Hybrid", which is clearly EVEN MORE ADVANCED than scaled action, so, new marketing term to learn!

Ooh!  Still much to think about, but at least graded action isn't going to be a problem in most cases.  Thanks!

I'm glad you found it useful. Plenty of threads on the slightly controversial VPC1 here. Controversial I will suggest as it seems you have to spend more time setting it up - that's per key corrections in some cases. Cheaper less precise alternatives being more consistent but less faithful to realistic touch. I have no frame of reference with your (or any) Kurzweil keyboards unfortunately.

I wish folks could easily walk into stores to try this stuff.
Maybe there is a music or piano shop near you?

Last edited by Key Fumbler (01-04-2023 23:17)