Topic: when is the 'humanise' option meant to be used?

I found several parameters that have a 'humanise' option:
unison width, hammer noise, strike point, intertia, key release noise - but if they are meant to add a level of 'randomness' of human piano playing, don't i have that 'human side of things' automatically, simply because i am playing the instrument?

or is 'humanise' referring to a human piano tuner/technician adding imperfections to the instrument?

(and also, when using humanise, does that make it obsolete to tweak the 'condition' parameter to something above 0 ?)

Re: when is the 'humanise' option meant to be used?

Well, it is more usefull for cases when there are thing that the interface player 》keyboard it's nos enough to control some little details, like where the plates of vibraphones will be hit, or if your keyboard doh't have measure for key release velocity. But you can use for other things.   
   Lei your imagination get wings.

   For add little (or even huge if desired) imperfections, the Condition slider it's the best tool.

Re: when is the 'humanise' option meant to be used?

weightedKeys wrote:

I found several parameters that have a 'humanise' option:
unison width, hammer noise, strike point, intertia, key release noise - but if they are meant to add a level of 'randomness' of human piano playing, don't i have that 'human side of things' automatically, simply because i am playing the instrument?

or is 'humanise' referring to a human piano tuner/technician adding imperfections to the instrument?

The "humanize" function allows the user to specify a range of values (instead of a single fixed value) for some parameters including "Key release noise" and "Unison Width," triggered or re-triggered each time a key is pressed on the MIDI keyboard, so that the sound produced by the parameter is more variable and less precise or mechanical. On a real acoustic piano, for example, the key-release noise might vary to some extent from note to note, and a piano tuner's adjustments of unison strings might vary from note to note.

As an example, in some percussion audio plugins (drums, mallet and other percussive instruments), a similar humanize function randomly varies the force, volume and timbre (and often time interval) from strike to strike, because a human drummer or other type of percussion player cannot consistently strike the instrument with exactly the same force and at precisely the same angle or location, or produce successive strikes with a precise, unvarying interval of time between them. So just as a person playing a piano necessarily humanizes (varies, even if they don't want to) the volume and timbre of every note struck by their fingers, other "humanized," randomized parameters can make the audio output sound more realistic, like it is produced by a person using a physical instrument, rather than by a computer or machine.

Last edited by Stephen_Doonan (12-01-2022 17:47)
--
Linux, Pianoteq Pro, Organteq

Re: when is the 'humanise' option meant to be used?

ah yes, that makes sense.

Re: when is the 'humanise' option meant to be used?

The "humanize" function allows the user to specify a range of values (instead of a single fixed value) for some parameters including "Key release noise" and "Unison Width," triggered or re-triggered each time a key is pressed on the MIDI keyboard, so that the sound produced by the parameter is more variable and less precise or mechanical. On a real acoustic piano, for example, the key-release noise might vary to some extent from note to note, and a piano tuner's adjustments of unison strings might vary from note to note.

Concerning the "note to note" mention, I think it's important to distinguish if we're talking about the SAME key being played repeatedly (or at different times), or various keys up and down the keyboard (or other interface). In the case of the piano sound, it seems to me that the latter (various keys) is much more significant when considering applying 'humanization" or randomness. I expect that the modelization of a well-adjusted, well-maintained piano will show a relatively narrow variation of the repeated strikes of the same note (at the same velocity and release velocity of course). However, I suppose that introducing small variations of parameters such as key strike, unison tuning, etc across the whole range of keys could create a subtle complexity that resembles the real thing (although I haven't tried it for myself yet).

Mallet instruments and harp models played with a piano-type keyboard are a completely different story, because you have to find a way to simulate striking the bars or strings at different places across their length.

PT 7.3 with Steinway B and D, U4 upright, YC5, Bechstein DG, Steingraeber, Ant. Petrov, Kremsegg Collection #2, Electric Pianos and Hohner Collection. http://antoinewcaron.com

Re: when is the 'humanise' option meant to be used?

I tried to edit my previous post to add this, but it was not possible so here goes:

There seems to be two ways to achieve random variations of various parameters:

1. The "Humanize" tab, accompanying graphic and adjustments when right-clicking a parameter on the main screen (such as "Blooming inertia").
   I wish this would display real time numbers for the parameter being "humanized" every time a key is hit, to help determine how much variation is needed for an   audible effect. This is appropriate mainly for  creating variations every time a key is stuck (ideal for mallet-type instrument models). In order to apply it to piano models,I wish this could be adjusted as fixed for a given note, but varying for different notes. Or maybe I am missing something?

2. The "random" tab in Note edit. This has the advantage of displaying the value obtained for each note every time the random button is hit. Particularly useful in the PRO version because every parameter can be randomized this way (limited to Volume and Pitch in the other versions). So this creates a fixed deviation of a parameter from the central value, on a per note basis.

Feel free to correct me if I misinterpreted something!

Last edited by aWc (13-01-2022 20:08)
PT 7.3 with Steinway B and D, U4 upright, YC5, Bechstein DG, Steingraeber, Ant. Petrov, Kremsegg Collection #2, Electric Pianos and Hohner Collection. http://antoinewcaron.com

Re: when is the 'humanise' option meant to be used?

aWc wrote:

2. The "random" tab in Note edit. This has the advantage of displaying the value obtained for each note every time the random button is hit. Particularly useful in the PRO version because every parameter can be randomized this way (limited to Volume and Pitch in the other versions). So this creates a fixed deviation of a parameter from the central value, on a per note basis

I'm wondering if the "humanize" function works with (in addition to) the Note-Edit note-per-note offsets: whether first the parameter is offset (decreased or increased) according to Note Edit adjustments, and then a humanize function (if one is available for that parameter) randomizes or varies the parameter further, according to each note's Note-Edit setting or offset.

--
Linux, Pianoteq Pro, Organteq

Re: when is the 'humanise' option meant to be used?

Good question! I would imagine they do add up. It would be a lot easier to see if the "Humanize" pop-up would display the value obtained in real time when a key is pressed. Philippe, is this doable? Time for some experimentation!

I'm wondering if the "humanize" function works with (in addition to) the Note-Edit note-per-note offsets: whether first the parameter is offset (decreased or increased) according to Note Edit adjustments, and then a humanize function (if one is available for that parameter) randomizes or varies the parameter further, according to each note's Note-Edit setting or offset.

Last edited by aWc (13-01-2022 22:58)
PT 7.3 with Steinway B and D, U4 upright, YC5, Bechstein DG, Steingraeber, Ant. Petrov, Kremsegg Collection #2, Electric Pianos and Hohner Collection. http://antoinewcaron.com

Re: when is the 'humanise' option meant to be used?

aWc wrote:

Good question! I would imagine they do add up. It would be a lot easier to see if the "Humanize" pop-up would display the value obtained in real time when a key is pressed. Philippe, is this doable? Time for some experimentation!

Bumping this because I’m interested in this topic. Anybody have experiences they’d like to share using the humanizing or random features? What extra benefits does Pro version offer in this regard?

Thanks!

Re: when is the 'humanise' option meant to be used?

Those above gave good explanations so not sure what I can add, but to say it's worth it, to me using Pro.

Many users swap ideas about how to make their own ideal piano sounds from the defaults. If you don't wish to delve into too much detail, just moving the 'Condition' slider to the right may add a variable amount of 'randomness' into the engine which will be satisfactory (just making the piano seem not so perfectly set up - to me, this quickly adds 'swimming' to the sound which is instant and pretty effective often).

But, you certainly can do many things to alter more exacting things, for any piano/preset, to make it more the way you desire.

You could for example, right-click on the 'Condition' slider and choose to change the 'Random seed' number. I've spent time in the past entering different numbers with the slider far to the right to hear what excessive alterations occur, and noted down a few numbers which seemed to do quite different things. When used normally, some DO seem to make the piano seem reminiscent of the extreme sound. If an extreme setting is particularly sour, or strangely not so sour.. note those numbers to re-use as random seeds. (I lost my notes on another PC.. maybe will be able to find those in future.. but I'll probably do this over again sometime soon).

Some may like just a little, or quite a lot of change when using the Condition slider. I do enjoy sometimes adding some of that slider, even if I'd delved into a pretty densely edited preset.. normally something like 0.06 to 0.18 (that's my own personal enjoyable 'realistic' bubble I tend to stick to.. others may like more, or less).


In Pro though, for 'humanizing' exact items.. it's certainly best to think "Do I need to do it" and if you think your pianos could be made more like you'd wish to hear them there, then you may decide Pro is a good expenditure just for this.

Most of the randomizable controls already contain a tasteful amount of randomization. But it's often good to be able to add, or reduce, certain things if you feel that it may improve your piano's expressiveness. It's interesting getting to know different controls and hearing what they each do.. I'd like to suggest, try out lowest vs. highest settings, no matter which control.. don't be scared to push from zero to max and back.. and then when you know "Ah, so that's what this does".. then stay within the zone where it sounds realilstic, if that's your goal.. small changes to anything can amount to pretty large alterations in realism.. so it may make sense to make something sound much sweeter.. but is that realistic for this control... and in time you notice ways to use 2 or more controls more subtly to gain better realism than just altering 1 control a lot.

If using Pro, you can easily try this to hear how the randomizing tool works in the controls..

In "Voicing" in the main interface, find "Hammer hardness" settings in the middle there.. then right-click the "Piano" hammer slider, and you'll see a panel with the randomization adjustment tool. If you do only this.. drag the bottom dot far to the right side and then you'll notice the 'hill-shaped' area is now stretched all the way right.. that's representing the distribution of probabilities (that you may strike a 'softest' note, but hear a hard hammer doing so, instead of a hammer at normal 'softness/hardness').

If you use the mouse to tap exactly the same soft notes (by tapping at the top of the piano keyboar representation), you'll hear the notes played with normal and some brighter sounding tones.

That gives just one example of some obvious jumps in tone - but often you can use the randomizations to make something more exact with less variance.

In real life, even a solidly built new piano may have very tiny variations with each key strike. So, it probably is more realistic not to make wild variations like random 'hard hammer' sounds for softly played notes - that would indicate a damaged hammer with some felt missing or a cartoon mouse living in the piano making mischief

The main thing I'd suggest if using ramdomized settings (if realism counts), would be to make many, but quite small adjustments to each. I do think it may be tempting to go with a higher random number for some element - but over time, you may return to that and after novelty fades, you realize "Oh, that's cool, but not really realistic".. but this IS actually the fantastic extra thing about Pianoteq - go wild if you want, and make infinite 'new' instruments.. there really is no rules for that, and I do love making 'unknown' instruments replacing synthesizers etc.


IDEA @Philippe: Maybe in future, some controls I imagine will go beyond 'randomization' and perhaps could be bracketed into factors such as "crescendo" (all randomness increases by X% when more than X strings played within X seconds over X velocity - and perhaps other things?).


All these little things are part of where reality lives and I'd definitely encourage upgrading to Pro for this ability, although Pro gives so much more also.

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: when is the 'humanise' option meant to be used?

Qexl wrote:

Those above gave good explanations so not sure what I can add, but to say it's worth it, to me using Pro.

Many users swap ideas about how to make their own ideal piano sounds from the defaults. If you don't wish to delve into too much detail, just moving the 'Condition' slider to the right may add a variable amount of 'randomness' into the engine which will be satisfactory (just making the piano seem not so perfectly set up - to me, this quickly adds 'swimming' to the sound which is instant and pretty effective often).

But, you certainly can do many things to alter more exacting things, for any piano/preset, to make it more the way you desire.

You could for example, right-click on the 'Condition' slider and choose to change the 'Random seed' number. I've spent time in the past entering different numbers with the slider far to the right to hear what excessive alterations occur, and noted down a few numbers which seemed to do quite different things. When used normally, some DO seem to make the piano seem reminiscent of the extreme sound. If an extreme setting is particularly sour, or strangely not so sour.. note those numbers to re-use as random seeds. (I lost my notes on another PC.. maybe will be able to find those in future.. but I'll probably do this over again sometime soon).

Some may like just a little, or quite a lot of change when using the Condition slider. I do enjoy sometimes adding some of that slider, even if I'd delved into a pretty densely edited preset.. normally something like 0.06 to 0.18 (that's my own personal enjoyable 'realistic' bubble I tend to stick to.. others may like more, or less).


In Pro though, for 'humanizing' exact items.. it's certainly best to think "Do I need to do it" and if you think your pianos could be made more like you'd wish to hear them there, then you may decide Pro is a good expenditure just for this.

Most of the randomizable controls already contain a tasteful amount of randomization. But it's often good to be able to add, or reduce, certain things if you feel that it may improve your piano's expressiveness. It's interesting getting to know different controls and hearing what they each do.. I'd like to suggest, try out lowest vs. highest settings, no matter which control.. don't be scared to push from zero to max and back.. and then when you know "Ah, so that's what this does".. then stay within the zone where it sounds realilstic, if that's your goal.. small changes to anything can amount to pretty large alterations in realism.. so it may make sense to make something sound much sweeter.. but is that realistic for this control... and in time you notice ways to use 2 or more controls more subtly to gain better realism than just altering 1 control a lot.

If using Pro, you can easily try this to hear how the randomizing tool works in the controls..

In "Voicing" in the main interface, find "Hammer hardness" settings in the middle there.. then right-click the "Piano" hammer slider, and you'll see a panel with the randomization adjustment tool. If you do only this.. drag the bottom dot far to the right side and then you'll notice the 'hill-shaped' area is now stretched all the way right.. that's representing the distribution of probabilities (that you may strike a 'softest' note, but hear a hard hammer doing so, instead of a hammer at normal 'softness/hardness').

If you use the mouse to tap exactly the same soft notes (by tapping at the top of the piano keyboar representation), you'll hear the notes played with normal and some brighter sounding tones.

That gives just one example of some obvious jumps in tone - but often you can use the randomizations to make something more exact with less variance.

In real life, even a solidly built new piano may have very tiny variations with each key strike. So, it probably is more realistic not to make wild variations like random 'hard hammer' sounds for softly played notes - that would indicate a damaged hammer with some felt missing or a cartoon mouse living in the piano making mischief

The main thing I'd suggest if using ramdomized settings (if realism counts), would be to make many, but quite small adjustments to each. I do think it may be tempting to go with a higher random number for some element - but over time, you may return to that and after novelty fades, you realize "Oh, that's cool, but not really realistic".. but this IS actually the fantastic extra thing about Pianoteq - go wild if you want, and make infinite 'new' instruments.. there really is no rules for that, and I do love making 'unknown' instruments replacing synthesizers etc.


IDEA @Philippe: Maybe in future, some controls I imagine will go beyond 'randomization' and perhaps could be bracketed into factors such as "crescendo" (all randomness increases by X% when more than X strings played within X seconds over X velocity - and perhaps other things?).


All these little things are part of where reality lives and I'd definitely encourage upgrading to Pro for this ability, although Pro gives so much more also.

Thank you so much for this reply! It’s super helpful. I’m an injured piano player who can no longer play so these features are very interesting to me. I have a lot to explore and it seems Pro would be a good option for me.