Topic by kluurs

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Topic: Looking for Set-Up Recommendations - New User

I've set up with Pianoteq8.  I'm using the USB out of the digital piano to my Lenovo Laptop (Windows 10) and then to a Topping 90SE DAC/Headphone amplifier using Sennheiser headphones.  It works - but I do get some sound breaking up on some chords when played.  Before going on - I also have a Focusrite 8-Pre that I've used for recording - but not currently using in the current set-up.

I'm only going to be playing solo piano focused on classical music.  I'll mostly be playing through headphones - though I might like to play through the digital piano (Roland HP704).

I've seen recommendations for use of an audio interface or separate sound module.  I'd appreciate equipment recommendations that a new user wouldn't be overwhelmed by - though quality of sound is important.  Budget is under $1k USD.

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: Looking for Set-Up Recommendations - New User

kluurs wrote:

I've set up with Pianoteq8.  I'm using the USB out of the digital piano to my Lenovo Laptop (Windows 10) and then to a Topping 90SE DAC/Headphone amplifier using Sennheiser headphones.  It works - but I do get some sound breaking up on some chords when played.  Before going on - I also have a Focusrite 8-Pre that I've used for recording - but not currently using in the current set-up.


I've seen recommendations for use of an audio interface or separate sound module.  I'd appreciate equipment recommendations that a new user wouldn't be overwhelmed by - though quality of sound is important.  Budget is under $1k USD.

Save yourself $1k, use the Focusrite device you already have.
Maybe you don't need to use that anyway?
See if you are using "exclusive" or l"ow-latency" modes. ASIO or WASAPI - Windows audio.
Try running at 48khz. No need to go for a silly low buffer.  See how you get on with about 20 milliseconds latency. It should not be necessary to get down to single figures as per recent forum threads where it was suggested in one report that a real pianos mechanical latency was about 30 milliseconds.

Reply by Sanderxpander

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Re: Looking for Set-Up Recommendations - New User

Key Fumbler wrote:
kluurs wrote:

I've set up with Pianoteq8.  I'm using the USB out of the digital piano to my Lenovo Laptop (Windows 10) and then to a Topping 90SE DAC/Headphone amplifier using Sennheiser headphones.  It works - but I do get some sound breaking up on some chords when played.  Before going on - I also have a Focusrite 8-Pre that I've used for recording - but not currently using in the current set-up.


I've seen recommendations for use of an audio interface or separate sound module.  I'd appreciate equipment recommendations that a new user wouldn't be overwhelmed by - though quality of sound is important.  Budget is under $1k USD.

Save yourself $1k, use the Focusrite device you already have.
Maybe you don't need to use that anyway?
See if you are using "exclusive" or l"ow-latency" modes. ASIO or WASAPI - Windows audio.
Try running at 48khz. No need to go for a silly low buffer.  See how you get on with about 20 milliseconds latency. It should not be necessary to get down to single figures as per recent forum threads where it was suggested in one report that a real pianos mechanical latency was about 30 milliseconds.

That 30 milliseconds number almost can't be right. I play lots of acoustic pianos and grands all the time and never feel any latency, yet if "digital" latency goes over 10ms I start to have trouble. I'm assuming that latency figure includes keyboard touch and hammer mechanism, don't forget most decent keyboards have some of that too. So you'd be adding the 20 ms latency to the 20/30ms whatever from the keyboard. The audio buffer latency is just that; it generally doesn't even include i/o latency which is at best another ms each way (ok only one way for purely digital instruments).

That said, yes use the Focusrite USB device you already have, if it has dedicated ASIO drivers.

At this point it's unclear what "sound breaking up" means and exactly what's causing it. It could be that you're clipping audio somewhere in the chain. If you still get this when plugging your headphones straight into the laptop and playing Pianoteq presets, it's unlike that that is the problem. If you DON'T get it when hooked up that way, then you're probably overloading the input of the Topping 90SE. You don't say how you've got stuff wired, I guess if you're using a DAC you're using an optical output on the laptop?

The "breaking up" could also be caused by your computer not being able to process all requests quickly enough. This would normally also be more present when you're asking more of it, e.g. playing chords is more demanding than playing a few single notes. You could see if changing the buffer settings has any effect, but you don't specify the sound driver (I suppose if you're using the internal soundcard, you're using ASIO4ALL?) or the connection type.

Most likely, if the latter is the case, it can be solved by using the dedicated Focusrite driver. I'd use the HP out from that and skip the Topping altogether. If you still have problems, run Latencymon while playing Pianoteq and see what it says when the sound breaks up.

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: Looking for Set-Up Recommendations - New User

Sanderxpander wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:

.. No need to go for a silly low buffer.  See how you get on with about 20 milliseconds latency. It should not be necessary to get down to single figures as per recent forum threads where it was suggested in one report that a real pianos mechanical latency was about 30 milliseconds.

That 30 milliseconds number almost can't be right. I play lots of acoustic pianos and grands all the time and never feel any latency, yet if "digital" latency goes over 10ms I start to have trouble. I'm assuming that latency figure includes keyboard touch and hammer mechanism, don't forget most decent keyboards have some of that too. So you'd be adding the 20 ms latency to the 20/30ms whatever from the keyboard. The audio buffer latency is just that; it generally doesn't even include i/o latency which is at best another ms each way (ok only one way for purely digital instruments).

I mean 30ms total system latency, not adding 30ms.

People obsess about getting their sound device latency down to single figures. If the rest of the system works well that should not be needed.

Reply by Sanderxpander

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Re: Looking for Set-Up Recommendations - New User

Well since there is no way to easily measure total system latency, as that would require measuring the time between hitting a key and getting sound and involves more measuring tools than most people have, usually we talk about audio buffer latency. 20ms is really high. At LEAST get down to 10.

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: Looking for Set-Up Recommendations - New User

Sanderxpander wrote:

Well since there is no way to easily measure total system latency, as that would require measuring the time between hitting a key and getting sound and involves more measuring tools than most people have, usually we talk about audio buffer latency. 20ms is really high. At LEAST get down to 10.

I was previously under that impression too.
It's horrendously driver dependent. So it's not correct.
Some systems have hideous latency. Others are super fast and adding 20 milliseconds remains fast. Only when doing a direct a/b comparison can you feel the incredibly subtle difference.
I'm talking about a miniscule difference which I suspect would make no practical difference to playing piano even to a world class concert pianist performance at the peak of their powers.
Maybe the gunslinger from blazing saddles would notice!

The unfortunate thing for this is when were discussing latency on here we are not really comparing apples with apples. So someone that is under the impression they have lightning fast senses because they need such low latency has been fooled by their system performance, while another getting away with much larger buffers (thinking they have a slow mind and slow fingers) may have an almost identical experience of global latency.

Reply by groovy

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Re: Looking for Set-Up Recommendations - New User

Sanderxpander wrote:

Well since there is no way to easily measure total system latency, as that would require measuring the time between hitting a key and getting sound and involves more measuring tools than most people have, usually we talk about audio buffer latency. 20ms is really high. At LEAST get down to 10.

It is very easy and has been done several times by several people documented here in the forum. Place a notebook in the middle between your hand and your speaker and acoustically record that noise with the internal notebook microphone. In the recorded WAV you will see two main acoustic events: the click of your fingernail and the piano sound. All wave editors I know (audacity for example)  can mark the range between two audio events and the difference on the timeline is the overall latency of your piano system.

Reply by Sanderxpander

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Re: Looking for Set-Up Recommendations - New User

groovy wrote:
Sanderxpander wrote:

Well since there is no way to easily measure total system latency, as that would require measuring the time between hitting a key and getting sound and involves more measuring tools than most people have, usually we talk about audio buffer latency. 20ms is really high. At LEAST get down to 10.

It is very easy and has been done several times by several people documented here in the forum. Place a notebook in the middle between your hand and your speaker and acoustically record that noise with the internal notebook microphone. In the recorded WAV you will see two main acoustic events: the click of your fingernail and the piano sound. All wave editors I know (audacity for example)  can mark the range between two audio events and the difference on the timeline is the overall latency of your piano system.

Fair enough, but this is still a considerable exercise for most novice users and almost never what people mean when they talk about their latency settings; it's the buffer size. Even with an otherwise fast system and headphones, a 10ms buffer is barely playable for me.

Reply by Sanderxpander

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Re: Looking for Set-Up Recommendations - New User

Key Fumbler wrote:
Sanderxpander wrote:

Well since there is no way to easily measure total system latency, as that would require measuring the time between hitting a key and getting sound and involves more measuring tools than most people have, usually we talk about audio buffer latency. 20ms is really high. At LEAST get down to 10.

I was previously under that impression too.
It's horrendously driver dependent. So it's not correct.
Some systems have hideous latency. Others are super fast and adding 20 milliseconds remains fast. Only when doing a direct a/b comparison can you feel the incredibly subtle difference.
I'm talking about a miniscule difference which I suspect would make no practical difference to playing piano even to a world class concert pianist performance at the peak of their powers.
Maybe the gunslinger from blazing saddles would notice!

The unfortunate thing for this is when were discussing latency on here we are not really comparing apples with apples. So someone that is under the impression they have lightning fast senses because they need such low latency has been fooled by their system performance, while another getting away with much larger buffers (thinking they have a slow mind and slow fingers) may have an almost identical experience of global latency.

I get your point about different drivers handling things a bit differently, I would say there are no such extreme differences between pro audio cards but most people on here seem to be using ASIO4All and whatever card is in their computer so no idea what the variance is on that. Could be a lot. I'm not used dealing with a lot of that but have played over a LOT of different dedicated interfaces.

I will say 20 ms buffer latency is ALWAYS way too slow, no matter the card. My RME FireFace UCX is definitely among the faster and more stable cards out there and I prefer keeping it at under 7ms buffer latency or it starts feeling sluggish.

My RD-88 has a built in interface fixed at 256 samples and 44.1KHz and it is just barely usable to me. I can definitely feel it. I guess it's a little slower than the RME on the USB side of things.

Reply by KB52

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Re: Looking for Set-Up Recommendations - New User

As SanderExpander just explanded & confirmed his under 7ms Latency w RME UCX.... I second or agree with the importance of 7ms or under. I also use RME Babyface Pro.
RME is famous for writing the best drivers and building their hardware around their in-house written "BULLET PROOF" software and Hardware. If you want to get on to making the finest music and recordings you can make, ( with-out Hassle) and you want no Latency problems, I suggest spending your "1K" money,  on RME Hardware. This would allow you to immediately stop "Fiddling" and get onto making the best music w/ least hassle.  Ken Boome

Sanderxpander wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:
Sanderxpander wrote:

Well since there is no way to easily measure total system latency, as that would require measuring the time between hitting a key and getting sound and involves more measuring tools than most people have, usually we talk about audio buffer latency. 20ms is really high. At LEAST get down to 10.

I was previously under that impression too.
It's horrendously driver dependent. So it's not correct.
Some systems have hideous latency. Others are super fast and adding 20 milliseconds remains fast. Only when doing a direct a/b comparison can you feel the incredibly subtle difference.
I'm talking about a miniscule difference which I suspect would make no practical difference to playing piano even to a world class concert pianist performance at the peak of their powers.
Maybe the gunslinger from blazing saddles would notice!

The unfortunate thing for this is when were discussing latency on here we are not really comparing apples with apples. So someone that is under the impression they have lightning fast senses because they need such low latency has been fooled by their system performance, while another getting away with much larger buffers (thinking they have a slow mind and slow fingers) may have an almost identical experience of global latency.

I get your point about different drivers handling things a bit differently, I would say there are no such extreme differences between pro audio cards but most people on here seem to be using ASIO4All and whatever card is in their computer so no idea what the variance is on that. Could be a lot. I'm not used dealing with a lot of that but have played over a LOT of different dedicated interfaces.

I will say 20 ms buffer latency is ALWAYS way too slow, no matter the card. My RME FireFace UCX is definitely among the faster and more stable cards out there and I prefer keeping it at under 7ms buffer latency or it starts feeling sluggish.

My RD-88 has a built in interface fixed at 256 samples and 44.1KHz and it is just barely usable to me. I can definitely feel it. I guess it's a little slower than the RME on the USB side of things.