Topic by stanleykho

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Topic: found my laptop to be underpowered. need laptop suggestions

Hi, I recently purchased the studio version.  I have a Kawai mp11se(max polyphony:256) connected to my laptop lenovo yoga 11e (Intel  core m3 processor) via bluetooth midi (wi-di) and my volt 2 interface is connected to the laptop. I experience CPU overloads especially when I use the sustain pedal and I can't seem to get the polyphony over 40 without crackling noise or losing audio output.  I am looking to buy a laptop to be able to handle the best audio settings for pianoteq. Any suggestions, thanks!

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: found my laptop to be underpowered. need laptop suggestions

Are you already working at 44.1 or 48khz?
Did you try increasing your buffer?
Accepting slightly more latency could get you there.

What's your budget?

Generally I would suggest an i5 or  i7 with 16GB or more, or an Apple M1 with 8GB, though you can use a lower powered CPU at a pinch.

Generally people want more more than just running the single instance of Pianoteq, with a single instrument. Also we have no way of knowing how much extra CPU power the next version of Pianoteq (or the one after that) will require.

Reply by Tahlendorf

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Re: found my laptop to be underpowered. need laptop suggestions

In terms of CPU power, there's a big gap between "consumer" products and "performance" products.

Consumer products are aimed for power efficiency, less power consumption (very good for battery usage) but also average performance.
Performance products are focused on computing power but are more power hungry (worst battery cicles).

Performance processors nomenclature (both Intel and AMD) contains an "H" (for... High Performance?) on the model name: i7-12700H, Ryzen 7 5800H... and so
Consumer products nomenclature doesn't contain that "H" in the model name, instead they got a "U" (Ultra low-power: i7-1255U, Ryzen 7 5700U) or a "G" (Graphics integrated: ), both for comercial use, very power efficient with enough power for everyday use but lacking computing power for more demanding tasks.

Gaming laptops usually mount those High Performance "H" CPU's, and you can find some models with very good CPUs but with lower specs graphic processors for a little more than a regular consumer product but with much more computing power.
Look for one of those without garish colours or crazy lightning, surprisingly there are some laptops on the gaming side that have a more sober design.

BEST REGARDS!

Reply by stanleykho

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Re: found my laptop to be underpowered. need laptop suggestions

Key Fumbler wrote:

Are you already working at 44.1 or 48khz?
Did you try increasing your buffer?
Accepting slightly more latency could get you there.

What's your budget?

Generally I would suggest an i5 or  i7 with 16GB or more, or an Apple M1 with 8GB, though you can use a lower powered CPU at a pinch.

Generally people want more more than just running the single instance of Pianoteq, with a single instrument. Also we have no way of knowing how much extra CPU power the next version of Pianoteq (or the one after that) will require.

my budget is around 2k USD. what is the usual delay between key press and sound? I think  less than 10ms or 15ms should be acceptable? i'm pretty amateur with my piano playing. I usually go over the polyphony when I use the sustain pedal or if the selected piano has more reverberations.

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: found my laptop to be underpowered. need laptop suggestions

stanleykho wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:

Are you already working at 44.1 or 48khz?
Did you try increasing your buffer?
Accepting slightly more latency could get you there.

What's your budget?

Generally I would suggest an i5 or  i7 with 16GB or more, or an Apple M1 with 8GB, though you can use a lower powered CPU at a pinch.

Generally people want more more than just running the single instance of Pianoteq, with a single instrument. Also we have no way of knowing how much extra CPU power the next version of Pianoteq (or the one after that) will require.

my budget is around 2k USD. what is the usual delay between key press and sound? I think  less than 10ms or 15ms should be acceptable? i'm pretty amateur with my piano playing. I usually go over the polyphony when I use the sustain pedal or if the selected piano has more reverberations.

For future:
Have a look at Apple M1 laptops then. Also if you didn't really need portability (just wanted a small footprint) consider a Mac Mini.
There are plenty of Windows Intel i5 and i7 systems to choose from. Look for high-performance models sometimes geared for gaming if you want maximum muscle to last a few years, and also to run Pianoteq in a DAW with multiple instances of virtual instruments.

For now:
I would say try increasing the buffer by the smallest amounts until the latency becomes noticeable then back it down a level.
See how you go with 20ms latency for instance.
Make sure you are running in exclusive mode.
Make sure your laptop isn't running any unnecessary background programs.
Check that you have the best ASIO settings or alternatively are using WASAPI.


Read:
https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=1011

From that thread:

Philippe Guillaume wrote:

It is interesting to see in this lecture
http://www.speech.kth.se/music/5_lectur...asure.html
that an acoustic piano has a latency in the range of 20 to 30 ms (staccato forte case), measuring time from the moment when the finger touches the key to when the strings start moving. So this is more or less what one would expect from a digital installation when summing all latencies: keyboard + software + soundcard.

Last edited by Key Fumbler (13-11-2022 11:26)

Reply by dklein

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Re: found my laptop to be underpowered. need laptop suggestions

I have enjoyed running Pianoteq on a Windows Surface tablet (my current one is now older, a 6), keeping the tablet on my music stand, using a bluetooth mouse to my right on an adjustable height stool, and using a bluetooth keyboard for when I need to type.  This lets me use the tablet for Pianoteq, displaying music, etc.  Even though the tablet is touchscreen, I have always prefered a mouse for precise 'pointing' and selecting.

- David

Reply by Fannon

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Re: found my laptop to be underpowered. need laptop suggestions

Choosing a good audio interface will also make a great difference in how low latency the laptop will be able to handle. In particular, the quality of the drivers seems to be important for this.

With my Motu M2, I'm able to play with latencies below 3ms, which is way lower than necessary. But I'm sure, you'd get around 5-8ms with most modern audio interfaces, even in the ~100€ range.

Would be interesting how much latency is really noticable. But I find this really hard to judge, because at some point slight latency you will not actively notice, but maybe still unconciously affect you.

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: found my laptop to be underpowered. need laptop suggestions

My Soundcard supports a lot of different modes.So I just run multiple tests. 

What Pianoteq says you have (estimated) can be grossly different at the fingertips. Basically you need to enable low latency ASIO or Windows Audio modes. 

Currently testing for this thread:
Pianoteq reports for 8ms latency with "Directsound". Latency is actually utterly hideous, yet reporting just 8ms. "Directsound" mode therefore completely unusable.

I was running on Windows Audio "Exclusive Mode" with 12 ms latency. to me this is immediate super fast.
I tried Windows  "Low Latency Mode" 10ms latency faster but insignificant. wouldn't be able to tell in a blind test from exclusive mode. Pianoteq is running 192khz (therefore must be internally reducing this to 48khz as I am on "Standard".

Standalone my decade old i7 happily runs max polyphony over four keyboards with this mode. Sustain used deliberately triggering as many notes as possible over multiple keyboards.

At 384khz 20ms or even 50ms with ASIO also inexplicably seem incredibly responsive - undetectable latency as 20ms. Also not sure I would be able to tell the 50ms (reported) from the 20ms.

So to conclude Directsound at 8ms felt VASTLY worse latency than 50ms with ASIO!!!

Reply by Fannon

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Re: found my laptop to be underpowered. need laptop suggestions

Key Fumbler wrote:

So to conclude Directsound at 8ms felt VASTLY worse latency than 50ms with ASIO!!!

That's interesting, that reporting is so far off. I wouldn't have expected any good latency from DirectSound anyway, as it was not built for that purpose.

So I'd expect that you'd get better latency and better professional use in the following.

Windows MME > DirectSound > WASAPI > ASIO

With WASAPI and ASIO you can either have a shared or an exclusive mode. Exclusive might get even better latency, but in some cases I found it annoying and even causing problems.

Just to drop one more experience point: I have two thinkpads where I tried to use the internal soundcard with low latency. This can be done with generic ASIO drivers like Asio4All or FlexAsio. Interestingly, one Laptop soundcard worked much better with Asio4All, the other with FlexAsio. So it is really worth trying out the options and comparing stability.

Reply by stanleykho

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Re: found my laptop to be underpowered. need laptop suggestions

sample rate at 48KHz
audio buffer at different samples with my volt 2
64 samples (1.3ms)
128 samples (2.7ms)
256 samples (5.3ms)
512 samples (10.7ms)
1024 samples (21.3ms)
2048 samples (42.ms)

I have it set to 512 samples currently.



Key Fumbler wrote:
stanleykho wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:

Are you already working at 44.1 or 48khz?
Did you try increasing your buffer?
Accepting slightly more latency could get you there.

What's your budget?

Generally I would suggest an i5 or  i7 with 16GB or more, or an Apple M1 with 8GB, though you can use a lower powered CPU at a pinch.

Generally people want more more than just running the single instance of Pianoteq, with a single instrument. Also we have no way of knowing how much extra CPU power the next version of Pianoteq (or the one after that) will require.

my budget is around 2k USD. what is the usual delay between key press and sound? I think  less than 10ms or 15ms should be acceptable? i'm pretty amateur with my piano playing. I usually go over the polyphony when I use the sustain pedal or if the selected piano has more reverberations.

For future:
Have a look at Apple M1 laptops then. Also if you didn't really need portability (just wanted a small footprint) consider a Mac Mini.
There are plenty of Windows Intel i5 and i7 systems to choose from. Look for high-performance models sometimes geared for gaming if you want maximum muscle to last a few years, and also to run Pianoteq in a DAW with multiple instances of virtual instruments.

For now:
I would say try increasing the buffer by the smallest amounts until the latency becomes noticeable then back it down a level.
See how you go with 20ms latency for instance.
Make sure you are running in exclusive mode.
Make sure your laptop isn't running any unnecessary background programs.
Check that you have the best ASIO settings or alternatively are using WASAPI.


Read:
https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=1011

From that thread:

Philippe Guillaume wrote:

It is interesting to see in this lecture
http://www.speech.kth.se/music/5_lectur...asure.html
that an acoustic piano has a latency in the range of 20 to 30 ms (staccato forte case), measuring time from the moment when the finger touches the key to when the strings start moving. So this is more or less what one would expect from a digital installation when summing all latencies: keyboard + software + soundcard.

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: found my laptop to be underpowered. need laptop suggestions

stanleykho wrote:

sample rate at 48KHz
audio buffer at different samples with my volt 2
64 samples (1.3ms)
128 samples (2.7ms)
256 samples (5.3ms)
512 samples (10.7ms)
1024 samples (21.3ms)
2048 samples (42.ms)

I have it set to 512 samples currently.

I use 48khz with 12ms. I suspect that even accounting for more latency within the system total it is possibly actually lower than the mechanical action of a real Piano. See quote from the Pianoteq creator earlier in the thread.

Exclusive mode but I can see I could happily use the 10ms "low latency" Windows Audio mode. It's indistinguishable.

Windows Audio modes or ASIO performance here is the same ballpark.
It's clear that it works perfectly all way up to 384kHz, as it is bound to use much more power so it's absolutely pointless as the difference is inaudible as you would expect.

Keeping everything to 48 kHz across all programs then it is less likely to start the DAW with the wrong setting. 96-384khz in the DAW will be much more taxing on the CPU across multiple tracks.

Last edited by Key Fumbler (13-11-2022 19:30)

Reply by marcos daniel

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Re: found my laptop to be underpowered. need laptop suggestions

My suggestions:
1) Don't use Bluetooth (Not sure about BT but WiFi used to cause problems on a laptop some years ago, Pianoteq worked a lot better in airplane mode).
2) I don't know you age, but if you are over 30 years old, it is very likely that you cannot hear any sound above 16 kHz, so try using 32 kHz instead of 48 kHz. You can check you hearing easily with any online tone generator.
3) If you want to buy a laptop, and you don't care about the finish nor size, only performance, go for an MSI laptop. MSI is a chinese brand with cheap gaming laptops. The positive thing about them is that they have powerful CPUs (i5, i7, R5 and R7) under 1000 USD with very good cooling solutions, prepared to handle a lot of heat. I have one from 2017 with a i7 7700HQ processor and I can play with a lot of pedal and the fans never turn on. Gaming laptops have utilities to control the fans' behaviour (for instance you can set the fans to turn on if temperature is bigger than 60ºC, as with Pianoteq the CPU will be around 55ºC they will be silent). Of course another brands should be as good as MSI. The important thing here is the cooling system. The negative aspect here is that you are paying for a graphic card you won't use. But thanks to the unused graphic card, you'll get extra cooling capacity.
I have to disagree about low power cpus, because I also have a newer small 13 inch HP laptop with a R7 5800U which can easily handle Pianoteq but the fan turns on quite often (not only with Pianoteq, but also for common use).
For Intel and AMD processors, you can compare the raw performance at websites as cpubenchmark.net or cpu-monkey.com.
I personally try to be away from Apple, but it is just personal taste.
Regarding the sound interface, I own two cheap options: Behringer UMC 404HD and UMC 204HD. The advantage is that they have MIDI input, so you can connect the keyboard to the sound card, and then the sound card to the laptop (save an USB port). In my case the 404 works a little better (for very small cache sizes), I don't know the reason because they are very similar, and the driver is the same.

EDIT: I looked for you interface and it has MIDI input, with a DIN5 cable you could easily hook the sound card to the piano and avolid the wireless stuff.

Last edited by marcos daniel (14-11-2022 03:52)

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: found my laptop to be underpowered. need laptop suggestions

While it could be an interesting technical exercise to get Pianoteq to work on an ultra low powered system, or simply act as a better sounding replacement for the internal sounds of a digital piano it's not going to be a good idea to recommend something like that for the long term.

So a low power NUC, android, Raspberry pi, low end Celeron or an old i3 might currently scrape through for someone playing 1 or 2 layers on the standalone version, say with a fair bit of buffer, low sample rate, low polyphony, a little more latency than is ideal and so on. Nonetheless I suggest i5 and i7 or M1 Apple for good comfort margin when using Pianoteq in a DAW in a track.

That is I suspect most typical users expect to still be able to play it in real-time with multiple other virtual instruments that haven't been frozen in wav form sitting in their own tracks in a DAW project with multiple global effects and so on.