Topic: Windows 11 users beware of latency issues and awful buzzing.

Earlier this year, replaced my older computer with a new prebuild from Dell. I would have built a new machine myself and spec'd out the hardware and operating system and it definitely wouldn't have been Windows 11. Unfortunately, as luck would have it my computer actually died at the height of the overpriced hardware, so I opted for a new machine which unfortunately came with Windows 11. This machine wasn't cheap either but far less expensive than what I would have paid to build one myself at the time.

After setting up everything and getting my cables, piano, and Pianoteq setup, I've had numerous random buzzes and audio glitches. These buzzes and audio glitches occur randomly, making them difficult to find. Thinking this was the built-in audio, I replaced this with an expensive Sound Blaster AE-9. This works well after I turned off the "effects" they have and use the direct sound which is only what Pianoteq produces and not the stupid effects that Creative Labs thinks sounds good such as their Concert mode. The built-in Maxx audio is crap to put it bluntly and there's no way to turn off their interface software without going through great hoops, so this was a better solution.

After replacing the card, the glitches occurred anyway. I had already replaced the cables with new ones, and now I was at a loss. At that point, I went through adjusting the buffer size larger and larger until the piano felt like I was typing in a terminal connected to a network at a 110 baud rate, and the glitches still occurred!

I disconnected the digital piano from the computer, and everything was fine with piano without Pianoteq. As soon as I reconnected to the computer, the glitches occurred. Thinking this was the I/O interface on the piano, I was ready to put in a service request to Roland to have a technician come out and look at the piano.

But just before I went through that expense, although this may be under warranty, I decided to check online more. Sure enough, others have experienced this with their audio as well. In among the me-too posts, and useless posts from the Microsoft "bots" saying to reinstall Windows, I found a useful link to a program called Latency Monitor.

https://resplendence.com/latencymon

Running this while playing showed the culprit in its logs. When a glitch occurs, the software puts up a red banner saying a glitch occurred and then it's easy to find the culprit. For Windows 11, there were many things but the ones that stood out were some things that kept hitting the network all the time. I checked for malware and found none as I thought would be the case and disabled or exited applications that phone home, or I suspected did so.

My solution of disabling or closing background processes and programs helped a lot but didn't solve the problem 100%. I get some glitches now but nothing like they occurred before. It's a start in the right direction and I hope to eventually solve this completely.

My conclusion is Windows 11 is notoriously busy all the time checking the network, poking at this, scanning that, and doing way more in the background than any other OS I've ever used. Avoid it at all costs if you can!

If I could have used Windows 10, I would have but I had no choice for Windows operating system for this hardware. Running Linux is fine, but I have other programs which are Windows based and that means setting up a Windows virtual machine and lose performance, or a dual boot setup with Pianoteq on the Linux partition and then copying over the audio files to a shared network store to transfer between the two operating systems. For me this is an additional inconvenience for something that used to work so easily and seamlessly in the past.

Re: Windows 11 users beware of latency issues and awful buzzing.

You can probably clean install Windows 10.  Before doing that, though, first question: are you using ASIO drivers?  (According to the website, the AE-9 has them; be sure you're using them.)  Also, you really need to disable the onboard audio interface — not just the user interface software, the hardware and drivers — even if you have to jump through hoops to do it.  You might be able to disable the hardware in the BIOS setup.

The AE-9 is a PCI-e card.  Sometimes it matters in which slot you place the card.  Unless you can make sense of the motherboard documentation (if that even exists), you might need to try each available slot to see if that makes a difference.

Re: Windows 11 users beware of latency issues and awful buzzing.

jcitron wrote:

I found a useful link to a program called Latency Monitor.

https://resplendence.com/latencymon

Running this while playing showed the culprit in its logs. When a glitch occurs, the software puts up a red banner saying a glitch occurred and then it's easy to find the culprit. For Windows 11, there were many things but the ones that stood out were some things that kept hitting the network all the time.

DPC latency is generally caused by drivers for onboard hardware. Network and especially WiFi and Bluetooth drivers are common offenders, It's quite common to have to disable WiFi and Bluetooth in BIOS to get low and stable DPC latency for audio streaming. Laptops also tend to have issues with ACPI.SYS that handles power management. That one's harder to get a handle on because disabling it affects battery charging, automatic sleep/hibernation on low battery, etc.

But my guess is Win10 would fare no better on the same hardware.

Re: Windows 11 users beware of latency issues and awful buzzing.

Coises wrote:

Also, you really need to disable the onboard audio interface.

I always recommend the opposite: Leave your onboard audio enabled as the default audio device for Windows, browsers and other generic audio apps, reserving your ASIO interface for Pianoteq and other 'serious' audio applications that you explicitly set up to use it.

Re: Windows 11 users beware of latency issues and awful buzzing.

For what it's worth, Pianoteq has been running fine for me on Windows 11. Having said that, Windows has all kinds of processes that startup in the background that can cause a little audio glitch here or there. Hunting them all down can be tedious, but there are some guides that can help. I found the issues are nearly identical on Windows 10 as 11 in this regard. Basically you want to run in "performance" mode, disable fast startup, etc. Here's an in depth guide:
https://gigperformer.com/docs/ultimate-...0Stage.pdf
You can find some less thorough, easier to follow guides online too.

Of course you might have some hardware/driver issues as mentioned above.

Last edited by NathanShirley (27-09-2022 18:16)

Re: Windows 11 users beware of latency issues and awful buzzing.

Coises wrote:

You can probably clean install Windows 10.  Before doing that, though, first question: are you using ASIO drivers?  (According to the website, the AE-9 has them; be sure you're using them.)  Also, you really need to disable the onboard audio interface — not just the user interface software, the hardware and drivers — even if you have to jump through hoops to do it.  You might be able to disable the hardware in the BIOS setup.

The AE-9 is a PCI-e card.  Sometimes it matters in which slot you place the card.  Unless you can make sense of the motherboard documentation (if that even exists), you might need to try each available slot to see if that makes a difference.

Yup. All that stuff is gonzo. Removed them. There's only one PCI-E slot available on the motherboard too.

Updating the system to Windows 10 is a pain due to the drivers and support for the i-9 12600K processor. The processor has multiple cores with some for regular use and others for performance. These Efficiency cores and Performance cores as they're called aren't managed at all under Windows 10 whereas, Windows 11 makes use of them and is "smart' enough to know when to use them.

Last edited by jcitron (30-09-2022 20:22)

Re: Windows 11 users beware of latency issues and awful buzzing.

I have an update to this mess. First let me thank you all for the recommendations. These helped me figure out what was going on. That Latency Monitor is a really useful tool and it's free. :-)

In addition to disabling the onboard audio which made no difference with its crappy Realtek and Wave MAXX stuff, which was way too mushy to start with, I found a bunch of things related to the Dell crapware that dump a bunch of services to constantly poke, bother, and interrupt the system as it's trying to do things. If I were using the system just to play games, I probably wouldn't notice but that isn't the case. These things that have been disabled including their Support Assistant, Fusion - related to the SA, and Killer Network software used to determine which network connection is faster and allow the user to prioritize programs downloading and game enhancements, etc.

Each time I ran the Latency Monitor after disabling different things with no ill effects, it revealed something else as getting in the way. This was like revealing the core to a cabbage or the inside of an onion. Eventually, everything that could be disabled was removed from the picture and everything runs great now. There is no longer any audio buzzing, clicks, dropouts, or other things going on that poke, bother, and annoy while I'm using Pianoteq.

You'd think that this system could handle it being an i-9 12600K with 64 GB of RAM, but unfortunately these poorly optimized programs running in the background completely brought this system down. Combine that with a poorly optimized system driver included with the Windows 11, and everything got worse. The driver is what I would call heavy and unstable enough that the slightest interruption to the processing caused the failure.

Re: Windows 11 users beware of latency issues and awful buzzing.

jcitron wrote:

Running Linux is fine, but I have other programs which are Windows based and that means setting up a Windows virtual machine and lose performance, or a dual boot setup with Pianoteq on the Linux partition and then copying over the audio files to a shared network store to transfer between the two operating systems.

It sounds like you've already talked yourself out of it.  But just for reference: in a dual boot setup, Linux should be able to read and write the Windows partition (but not vice versa).  So you can run Pianoteq in Linux and save audio files directly to your Windows folders, if that helps.  No need for a network store or a transfer process.

Re: Windows 11 users beware of latency issues and awful buzzing.

Just use Linux then, maybe ubuntu.
You will see from linux your windows drives.

Re: Windows 11 users beware of latency issues and awful buzzing.

Sound Blaster AE-9 is a very  high priced low end card. If I were spending that much on a card I would get a usb off board card like https://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/irigproduo/# for a third of the cost and ten times better quality.

Linux or win 10 can install on all dell's. Just wipe and start again.

Re: Windows 11 users beware of latency issues and awful buzzing.

dubc wrote:

Sound Blaster AE-9 is a very  high priced low end card. If I were spending that much on a card I would get a usb off board card like https://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/irigproduo/# for a third of the cost and ten times better quality.

Linux or win 10 can install on all dell's. Just wipe and start again.

You've got that quite wrong I'm afraid. I know it's "only" a soundblaster card but it has serious audiophile credentials being well shielded with an exceptionally high quality DAC excellent headphone amplifier section designed to drive high impedance headphones well. It also has very high resolution digital volume control - it's not going to lose the resolution as quickly as cheaper devices. Sabre 32 performance is more akin to high-end audiophile preamplifiers - and yes you can get that DAC chip in cheaper interfaces too these days.

Gimmicky gaming features can be ignored, the 7 & 9 are still very high quality cards with excellent real-world sound to noise ratio.

Where they will fall down against external USB devices is connectivity. However many similar priced external devices have surprisingly poor headphones amplifier stages.
If you want to hook up external microphones, synthesizers, guitars etc then you will want an external sound interface. You'll have to spend a fair bit more to get the quality of the electronics for an external device with those connectivity features.

Last edited by Key Fumbler (09-10-2022 14:23)