[ Closed ] Pianoteq has some hidden overtones that aggravate my tinnitus. (Page 3 of 3)

UPDATE:

I've done more testing on to explore what the root cause might be and I was able to recreate the pain/tinnitus at a very low volume by cranking the sympathetic resonance and impedance up simultaneously.

It just felt like something was causing pain in my ears when I did this, as if I was listening to a very loud sound that I is outside of my normal range of hearing.

By doing this, my ears started ringing very quickly almost instantly, and it was also physically painful to listen to as if a physically loud sound was in my ear that I couldn't hear.

Not sure exactly what's going on, but this particular test really made the problem apparent enough that I'm now hesitant to continue using the program at all because I was able to generate pain at a volume that is not only apparently safe, but actually quite quiet.

For instance, the issue could be in the way pianoteq actually does its conversion, and such frequencies might bypass their internal filters.

panz3r wrote:

I don't think in general is really known what causes tinnitus so it may be very well in the brain .
I don't think is realistic to expect from modartt to do research in how piano waves impact tinitus and even if they do i highly doubt they will figure it out.
Probably is best to just use another VST and call it a day.

He would probably say Pianoteq isn't a real Piano, so your comment doesn't apply here, for he is making the extraordinary claim that there are probably false artificial unintended hidden frequencies exacerbating or creating tinnitus from Pianoteq.
What is more he makes the extraordinary claim that it is for Modartt to make the case that they are not doing this, or that their product is safe!

It could be that Pianoteq actually improve their models and this problem goes away for him, equally it might get worse for someone else as tinnitus is highly individual.

I doubt there is any dynamic virtual instrument, or real hardware instrument that doesn't have this effect to any given individual and their tinnitus!
The actually very low number of people agreeing with his claim is therefore actually potentially surprising, especially given the sheer volume of people that have read the thread.

My concern would be that if this dubious claim sticks then the grifters looking for a potential claim would circle like vultures, even if the original claim was made in good faith. This would also open up Pandora's box for claims against any instrument developers.

I believe if Pianoteq was to actually be an absolutely perfect representation of a real piano completely and totally indistinguishable from the real thing (the real recorded thing in stereo anyway) there would still be people swearing blind that Pianoteq sounded like Pianoteq, such is the nature of human psychology. The more expensive wine literally tastes better in the human mind.

Opus32 wrote:

Key Fumbler wrote:

He would probably say Pianoteq isn't a real Piano, so your comment doesn't apply here, for he is making the extraordinary claim that there are probably false artificial unintended hidden frequencies exacerbating or creating tinnitus from Pianoteq.
What is more he makes the extraordinary claim that it is for Modartt to make the case that they are not doing this, or that their product is safe!

It could be that Pianoteq actually improve their models and this problem goes away for him, equally it might get worse for someone else as tinnitus is highly individual.

I doubt there is any dynamic virtual instrument, or real hardware instrument that doesn't have this effect to any given individual and their tinnitus!
The actually very low number of people agreeing with his claim is therefore actually potentially surprising, especially given the sheer volume of people that have read the thread.

My concern would be that if this dubious claim sticks then the grifters looking for a potential claim would circle like vultures, even if the original claim was made in good faith. This would also open up Pandora's box for claims against any instrument developers.

I believe if Pianoteq was to actually be an absolutely perfect representation of a real piano completely and totally indistinguishable from the real thing (the real recorded thing in stereo anyway) there would still be people swearing blind that Pianoteq sounded like Pianoteq, such is the nature of human psychology. The more expensive wine literally tastes better in the human mind.

This is a blatant mischaracterization of my view.

Also, parroting Richard Dawkins' and Carl Sagan's arguments against religion against everything you disagree with shows that you don't actually understand what's happening here, nor do you actually understand the logic behind Dawkins'/Sagan's arguments as deeply as you might think.

There is ample evidence to spark further investigation on the topic. Unlike religion, there is a falsifiable, and therefore scientifically testable claim.

I actually have such scientific training; you do not. Stop pretending to be an expert, stop misleading nonexperts, please, and leave this to the professional engineers at Modartt.

Religion is not discussed here, nor are comparisons to faith either. No argument is borrowed, just my own thoughts. 

A bizarre post all round, pitiful really.

Opus32 wrote:

There is ample evidence to spark further investigation on the topic. Unlike religion, there is a falsifiable, and therefore scientifically testable claim.

anyone coming to this thread at this point and looking for scientific evidence would do well to read the first few posts on p.1. There, evidence is provided that the OP spent up to 14 hours at a time with headphones on tweaking pianoteq until his ears were ringing

There have been a few hypotheses put forward. One is that pianoteq has some mystery ingredient that causes tinnitus

another is that spending 14 hours at a time tweaking frequencies with headphones on until your ears ring can cause tinnitus

applying occam's razor, my money is on the latter, especially given the state of knowledge about tinnitus (plenty of research out there if you want to look)

to the OP, tinnitus can be distressing. i have it and would love to be rid of it. i hope you can learn to live with it and get past trying to make moddart a scapegoat

I've read every one of your arguments. I'm out of this now - good luck

Jake Johnson wrote:

So I've been experimenting with simply inserting Lava as an effect while using Pianoteq. Worth a try, I do believe:

Default NY Steinway Classical on Doug McKenzie's MIDI rendering of "Danny Boy": https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...cal%20.mp3

The same Pianoteq preset with Lava inserted, and set to render a U87A to an AKG C414: https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...effect.mp3

Doug McKenzie's wonderful MIDI file recording of "Danny Boy" :  https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?file=Dannyboy.mid
It is of course copyrighted and belongs to him. Please credit him when using this and his other files at https://bushgrafts.com/midi/

You may not want to listen to all of both recordings. My attempt here is just to provide a taste of what is possible.

Notes:
1. All of the Pianoteq settings were kept the same, including the effects.
2. There may be a way to replace each Pianoteq mic with a Lava mic, if one sent each mic to a separate Out in a DAW. I haven't gotten that far. All I've done here is load Pianoteq and add Lava as an effect in a single track in Harrison Mixbus. The Pianoteq preset includes 4 mics, and only the more distant mics are the U87's. (But they have more gain in the preset, to compensate for their distance.)
3. The only change I've made in Lava is to set oversampling to 1x, instead of the default setting of "Eco."
4. Does the result sound as though real U87's were changed to real C414's? Well, I doubt it, but I'm interested more in the variety of possible sounds than creating an exact simulation.

And:
1. Worth trying, if one experiments: In Lava, just leave the From box empty. Lava will still try to impose the "sound" of the target mic. Also try random mics in the From box and To box. The results can sometimes be overly-crisp, and sometimes good.
2. Listen particularly to the effect on the attack in the treble and upper treble. Some of these mics smooth out the transients, without losing the sense of a hammer, and sound musical in a way that may be appealing.

Hi Jake,

I don’t know what it is but this Lava thing really put “more Body” in Steinway. I can hear beautiful glue musicality between the notes when the Lava inserted. I can hear the tail of each sounds (rumble of the Piano overtone) painted beautifully. With this, each notes counts, clear, can be touch and feel when it’s building up. This is Music.
In my ear perspective, this could solve the Tinnitus problem that some of us experiences.