Topic by raoulpetite

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Topic: thinking about a VPC1 + pianoteq for classical music ?

Hi there,

I am a pre-newbie ! Still do not own a controller. And my questions for now still focus on buying one  and the reason why I am here is because I’ll certainly use pianoteq as it looks like a very good option for a realistic piano experience. Let me add that I am not the one concerned but I am acting on behalf of my teen daughter

She’s playing at an intermediate level mainly classical stuffs like Chopin’s Waltz, Bach’s well tempered clavier (only the 3 voice pieces for now), .. We already have an acoustic piano at home but she cannot play it as often as she wants for several reasons which are out of the scope of this post. So, what I want to get is a mean for her to play in her small bedroom, as silently as possible with a keyboard as close as possible to the action of a real acoustic so that she can efficiently practice. She really wants to improve her playing and also expressiveness (that’s very important to her ). After she had tried many digital pianos in our neighborhood, the only actions that she really likes are those with wooden keys (excepted yamaha’s NWX). And the ones she prefers by far are Kawai’s grand feel but also RM3 grand (on a used MP10). But we are budget-limited and then, I logically find Kawai’s VPC1 as being a good alternative. But as there is no way to try one out there and as I have a very poor experience in midi controllers, please allow me to ask few newbie questions.

First a silly question since it is written in the pianoteq’s homepage : can it be run standalone ? No need for a DAW ? More seriously, running standalone probably requires less computational power and so is more efficient, isn't it ?

As I guess that many of you are advanced (classical) players on this forum , do you think it is a silly idea to buy a VPC1+pianoteq in the context I described above ? If you have any feedback regarding this configuration, I’ll read yours with great attention.

What are the possible difficulties I will have when connecting the VPC1 to a computer + pianoteq? (In the beginning, she will play though good-quality headphones she already owns) For what I read quickly on this forum, pianoteq does not seem to require a lot of computational power, but the real requirements (not the minimal ones) in order to run it without to much latency and “forgotten notes”  are not clear to me. She sometimes plays very fast (not as fast as advanced player of course but fast especially when practicing scales, finger exercises …)  Due to our budget, the computer will probably be a desktop rather than a laptop.  Should I prefer using a soundcard or not as pianoteq ?


Thank you !

Reply by sadhö

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Re: thinking about a VPC1 + pianoteq for classical music ?

Hi,

I was a bit interested in the VPC1: I heard that a problem is that vertical board so your fingers may be jolting/bouncing? against it. (sorry, I don't know the propper verb). But I guess this will really suck when your fingers need and then lack the freedom to move...

I'm using the Studiologic SL88grand - it has a fatar-keybed (they are in many controllers!). I don't have problems in my everyday playing with it BUT it's not really good when you play fast repeated notes eg.   with two fingers on one key. then I have missing notes or so or sometimes a sudden very loud note (but for this I worked on the velocity-curve..)

VPC1 is 1300eur; SL88 is 760eur) ~ in germany..

worth a try.

AND: yes! Standalone is possible!

Don't forget to try pianoteq for a little while and see If you really like it! And which pianos.. take your time!

greetings

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: thinking about a VPC1 + pianoteq for classical music ?

FWIW you won't see any efficiency difference between running the stand-alone product and running it within Reaper daw.

VPC1 should have better action than anything else at the price point new (from everything I read). That said some people complain even with the vpc1 of slow response compared to MP11SE.

An older second hand top of the line Casio with the hybrid grand Bechstein action could be another option - if you have the space - that's no desktop option but could be even better than an mp11se by a number of accounts.

Reply by drukqs

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Re: thinking about a VPC1 + pianoteq for classical music ?

I recently had a period where I was not able to practice at home on my (acoustic) piano, and instead had to rely on my Yamaha P-95 connected to my 2019 MBP. I was quite happy with the results, and found that it was a beneficial addition to my practice regimen. I would not want to be completely without access to an acoustic piano for a long time, but I think for my needs and those of your daughter, such a setup is very, very serviceable and suitable.

I should warn, that, depending on repertoire, practicing on a keyboard, even with headphones, can make some noise. In my current set up, my downstairs neighbour could hear my key impacts, in part because keyboard stand is a single-X frame POS, and simply is not rigid enough. As well, the action on my Yamaha does make an audible "thunk thunk" sound, so when I'm practicing particularly lively repertoire, this noise can carry.

In my perspective, you (or your daughter) should be asking the following questions:

1) Do you like the sound of Pianoteq?
2) Is your keyboard have an action that you like, and that is responsive enough to fully take advantage of the full (expressive) range of Pianoteq (or, really, any VST)?

I would argue that the quality of the action is of secondary importance, as one's real musicianship is how one can adjust their playing and technique to get the best out of their instrument, whatever that might be. Of course, an action with weight and responsiveness that resembles what we might encounter in, say, a Steinway in a music school would be preferable. But unless you are playing Ravel's Scarbo, you could do well enough with something as budget as my poor little Yamaha.

On my MBP, I am able to run the Pianoteq app without having to run Logic or Garageband, so using it is quite simple, once your setup is complete.

I have not had any problems with lag or dropping notes. To be safe, you could quit all other applications when running Pianoteq. If you need to troubleshoot, just keep an eye on the CPU % in the top left corner.

Reply by NormanP

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Re: thinking about a VPC1 + pianoteq for classical music ?

I have the Kawai VPC1, Studiologic sl 88 Grand and Studiologic Studio 73/88 for live playing. Somehow I am not satisfied with the feeling of the Kawai. I am not sure, but I think because Pianoteq is not limited to velocity layers it is even more important to get the velocity response right with your keyboard. So in my case Pianoteq sounds even worse with the Kawai (My subjective feeling, maybe for others it is fine, maybe my Kawai is even damaged). I tried using VPC Editor to adjust the velocity, but for me it doesn't work and I am giving up. With the Studiologic I am very happy. Of course the grand feels better, but for live playing I use the Studio version because of the weight. I would give the Rolands also a try. I only played the RD 2000 in store with onboard sounds but I liked the feeling.
I am not a professional but I take classical Piano lessons once a week and play on a good regulated Yamaha Grand and have also a an upright at home.

Reply by dazric

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Re: thinking about a VPC1 + pianoteq for classical music ?

drukqs makes a very valid point - whatever keyboard you eventually decide on, do budget for a rigid stand as well. When I first got my Roland FP-30, I had an x-frame stand and it drove me nuts. Wobble, wobble, wobble... So I just had to get a rigid stand. The FP-30 is not perfect, but it's a good compromise. I needed something fairly lightweight and easy to move around. I also have an acoustic upright, and I don't think any DP could match the feel of that. Having said that, the FP-30 is not terrible, and certainly way better than some acoustics I've played in the past! If I was in the market for a new DP I would be considering the new Casio models as well as Rolands.

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: thinking about a VPC1 + pianoteq for classical music ?

I suspect Norman Ps VPC1 needs servicing - sensors or hammers crushed or twisted.  Maybe it has been heavily handled in transit before he got it?

Casio PX-S5000 is a new one for the circa £1k price point. Along with the studio logic grand, all the Roland models with PHA-4.

Studiologic Studio is a strange one in terms of radically mixed reviews - people complaining that it is way too heavy action. Also plenty of folks complaining that it has way too light an action!!!
Is there inconsistency of build that is going on there (some units made with all light weight keys, some all heavier?) or is it people's radically different perceptions based on their personal experience?
Could it be that the complainers are used to more synth or semi weighted actions, while people used to heavy upright pianos find it to light?

I would have thought the SL73 was aimed at EP/Rhodes piano fans. It's still an unusual size. As there is no graduation on the weight of the SL studio models perhaps the 73 and the 88 have different weighted keys to each other?
The 73 presumably with lighter keys, if that is the case at all?

All this really highlights the need for stores that give people hands-on experience, but they need to be able to to price their products competitively against the cheapest out there. How is that ever going to happen?

Stands do help.
I preferred my entry level Casio CDP when I added the integrated stand. I believe the metal parts of the frame make it more sturdy. It just makes it feel better.

Same may go for the PHA-4 in Roland A88 MK2 which has a sturdy metal body anyway, before adding a stand.

Last edited by Key Fumbler (13-09-2022 12:50)

Reply by alexmessina

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Re: thinking about a VPC1 + pianoteq for classical music ?

Hello,
I have a Studiologic SL88 Grand, but evaluating switching to a Kawai with Grand Feel Action. Actually, I find the SL88 very good but a bit more distant - compared to the Kawai - from an authentic weighted action and slightly more difficult to control.

I've tried the CA79/99 and it's absolutely awesome! A great and unique feeling, never found anything else so natural and precise. However, the oldest Kawai model - including the VPC1 - doesn't have the newest action Grand Feel III action you find in CA79/99 but the Grand Feel II action, which suffers from some "slip tape" issues and I think there is a huge difference between them.

If you like, you can look at the differences here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJEAKI2jBLU

(Frankly, I think there is an urgent need for a Kawai VPC2, which should include that new action. The VPC1 itself is almost ten years old, now)

In the meantime, you will have to choose a keyboard from those you like, if you decide to go for Pianoteq.

Pianoteq is an exceptional piece of software, its sound is incredibly alive and I wouldn't change it for anything else. It's extremely user-friendly (for example, it automatically records everything you play as a MIDI file, always... and that is a very useful function) and I strongly prefer to use it stand-alone; I have an external USB sound card, but quite entry-level.

To be honest, I think in the budget you should also consider the type of amplification...I have two monitor speakers plus a subwoofer, but you could choose to limit yourself to headphone listening for a while or start without a subwoofer.

I forgot... to make my SL88 Grand efficient with Pianoteq, I had to work a lot on an optimised velocity curve for my playing style. Whichever keyboard you choose, it might be useful to make such an adjustment (very easy to experiment with it in Pianoteq, although it might be a bit advanced thing... it will come into its own over time).

Alex

Last edited by alexmessina (13-09-2022 21:22)

Reply by Stephen_Doonan

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Re: thinking about a VPC1 + pianoteq for classical music ?

I've owned a Studiologic SL88 Grand, a Yamaha P-95, a Kawai VPC1 and Kawai MP11SE. My favorites, primarily for the feel of the keyboard while playing, are the VPC1 and MP11SE. Just my personal preference.

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Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: thinking about a VPC1 + pianoteq for classical music ?

Stephen_Doonan wrote:

I've owned a Studiologic SL88 Grand, a Yamaha P-95, a Kawai VPC1 and Kawai MP11SE. My favorites, primarily for the feel of the keyboard while playing, are the VPC1 and MP11SE. Just my personal preference.

That's interesting, considering all the negative comments on a thread on the VPC1 I guess you were somewhat perplexed by that?
Did you have to adjust the curves for Kawai VPC1 a lot or very little?

Reply by Stephen_Doonan

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Re: thinking about a VPC1 + pianoteq for classical music ?

Key Fumbler wrote:

That's interesting, considering all the negative comments on a thread on the VPC1 I guess you were somewhat perplexed by that?
Did you have to adjust the curves for Kawai VPC1 a lot or very little?

Not really. The VPC1 is not perfectly calibrated for velocity for each note across the full range of the keyboard, but that is easily compensated for (although I haven't often found it necessary) using the Volume parameter of Pianoteq's Note Edit. It turns out (or seems to me) that the slightly uneven calibration is primarily evident at high velocities, and since I have turned Pianoteq's velocity curve from  a linear 0-127 to what seems to be a more realistic 0-112 (or 115), I don't notice and am not annoyed by velocity-volume response from adjacent or nearby notes. I think that the issue was exaggerated when playing notes at their highest velocities.

Anyway, I have found little need anymore to adjust either the volume of individual notes, or the velocity curve of Pianoteq, after lowering the maximum velocity of the Pianoteq velocity curve. I began doing this after listening to quite a few MIDI files of the International Piano E-Competition, many of which were recorded using high-end digital-acoustic hybrid pianos such as the Yamaha Disklavier. At the loudest passages of nearly all of those pieces, played by numerous different pianists, the MIDI velocity of the notes rarely exceeded the mid-teens (of the values over 100). Yet the performances, when played back using Pianoteq, sounded astonishingly realistic. So I adjusted the Pianoteq velocity curve downward at that time, and have been happy since, whether playing using the Kawai VPC1 or the MP11SE.

Last edited by Stephen_Doonan (13-09-2022 23:00)
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Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: thinking about a VPC1 + pianoteq for classical music ?

Stephen_Doonan wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:

That's interesting, considering all the negative comments on a thread on the VPC1 I guess you were somewhat perplexed by that?
Did you have to adjust the curves for Kawai VPC1 a lot or very little?

Not really. The VPC1 is not perfectly calibrated for velocity for each note across the full range of the keyboard, but that is easily compensated for (although I haven't often found it necessary) using the Volume parameter of Pianoteq's Note Edit. It turns out (or seems to me) that the slightly uneven calibration is primarily evident at high velocities, and since I have turned Pianoteq's velocity curve from  a linear 0-127 to what seems to be a more realistic 0-112 (or 115), I don't notice and am not annoyed by velocity-volume response from adjacent or nearby notes. I think that the issue was exaggerated when playing notes at their highest velocities.

Anyway, I have found little need anymore to adjust either the volume of individual notes, or the velocity curve of Pianoteq, after lowering the maximum velocity of the Pianoteq velocity curve. I began doing this after listening to quite a few MIDI files of the International Piano E-Competition, many of which were recorded using high-end digital-acoustic hybrid pianos such as the Yamaha Disklavier. At the loudest passages of nearly all of those pieces, played by numerous different pianists, the MIDI velocity of the notes rarely exceeded the mid-teens (of the values over 100). Yet the performances, when played back using Pianoteq, sounded astonishingly realistic. So I adjusted the Pianoteq velocity curve downward at that time, and have been happy since, whether playing using the Kawai VPC1 or the MP11SE.

Thanks for that informative reply. Should restore faith in anyone that has seen the negative thread.

Reply by alexmessina

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Re: thinking about a VPC1 + pianoteq for classical music ?

Stephen_Doonan wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:

That's interesting, considering all the negative comments on a thread on the VPC1 I guess you were somewhat perplexed by that?
Did you have to adjust the curves for Kawai VPC1 a lot or very little?

Not really. The VPC1 is not perfectly calibrated for velocity for each note across the full range of the keyboard, but that is easily compensated for (although I haven't often found it necessary) using the Volume parameter of Pianoteq's Note Edit. It turns out (or seems to me) that the slightly uneven calibration is primarily evident at high velocities, and since I have turned Pianoteq's velocity curve from  a linear 0-127 to what seems to be a more realistic 0-112 (or 115), I don't notice and am not annoyed by velocity-volume response from adjacent or nearby notes. I think that the issue was exaggerated when playing notes at their highest velocities.

Anyway, I have found little need anymore to adjust either the volume of individual notes, or the velocity curve of Pianoteq, after lowering the maximum velocity of the Pianoteq velocity curve. I began doing this after listening to quite a few MIDI files of the International Piano E-Competition, many of which were recorded using high-end digital-acoustic hybrid pianos such as the Yamaha Disklavier. At the loudest passages of nearly all of those pieces, played by numerous different pianists, the MIDI velocity of the notes rarely exceeded the mid-teens (of the values over 100). Yet the performances, when played back using Pianoteq, sounded astonishingly realistic. So I adjusted the Pianoteq velocity curve downward at that time, and have been happy since, whether playing using the Kawai VPC1 or the MP11SE.

The same for me on the SL88 Grand: I reduced the velocity range from 0-127 to something slightly smaller, cutting away on the high parts above all.
This way, the average slope of the curve decreases and any sudden variation - caused by a control 'error' (due to the pianist or the mechanics) - becomes less noticeable.

Reply by Canon_D

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Re: thinking about a VPC1 + pianoteq for classical music ?

Key Fumbler wrote:

Along with the studio logic grand, all the Roland models with PHA-4.

I read in several reviews that the Roland FP 10 has the best keyboard action in the "below 500 €" price range. The keys have a slighly roughened surface: "Touch the white keys and you'll be convinced by a revolutionary moisture-absorbing material that recreates the natural texture and tactile feel of real ivory".
The internal speaker doesn't sound good, but combined with Pianoteq it's a very good option (for me).

Last edited by Canon_D (14-09-2022 13:02)

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: thinking about a VPC1 + pianoteq for classical music ?

Canon_D wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:

Along with the studio logic grand, all the Roland models with PHA-4.

I read in several reviews that the Roland FP 10 has the best keyboard action in the "below 500 €" price range. The keys have a slighly roughened surface: "Touch the white keys and you'll be convinced by a revolutionary moisture-absorbing material that recreates the natural texture and tactile feel of real ivory".
The internal speaker doesn't sound good, but combined with Pianoteq it's a very good option (for me).

Unquestionably the best value for money currently since it's got the action they use throughout most of their models, bar the top models.
One thing I haven't looked into is variable foot pedals. Maybe that's something to look at in terms of differences between models?

Do entry models like that  now support anything other than on off switch pedals?

Reply by Canon_D

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Re: thinking about a VPC1 + pianoteq for classical music ?

Key Fumbler wrote:

Do entry models like that  now support anything other than on off switch pedals?

I think it does! The FP-10 came with one of those black plastic pedals (that I have replaced meanwhile), but when I went through the velocity calibration with the Roland pedal, Pianoteq asked me to press the pedal half way, etc. to calibrate the gradual feedback.

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: thinking about a VPC1 + pianoteq for classical music ?

Canon_D wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:

Do entry models like that  now support anything other than on off switch pedals?

I think it does! The FP-10 came with one of those black plastic pedals (that I have replaced meanwhile), but when I went through the velocity calibration with the Roland pedal, Pianoteq asked me to press the pedal half way, etc. to calibrate the gradual feedback.

Pianoteq asks that as standard. It will report if it is an on off switch though. If you saw a gradual movement then that's cool. A surprise if the standard pedal supported half pedalling too!!!

Reply by dazric

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Re: thinking about a VPC1 + pianoteq for classical music ?

My understanding is that the FP-10 doesn't support continous pedalling, but the FP-30 definitely does. However, my info comes from reading a post about the FP-10 some time ago, so maybe Roland have updated it since then?

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: thinking about a VPC1 + pianoteq for classical music ?

dazric wrote:

My understanding is that the FP-10 doesn't support continous pedalling, but the FP-30 definitely does. However, my info comes from reading a post about the FP-10 some time ago, so maybe Roland have updated it since then?

Aha, I should've Googled FP-10.
EDIT: It supports half pedalling with a separate upgrade pedal:
"PHA-4 Standard keyboard delivers the responsive feel of a fine acoustic piano, with every nuance whether you play hard or soft captured by Roland’s touch-detection technology. With high-resolution sensing and escapement for fast key repetition, the PHA-4 keyboard faithfully translates into sound the subtlest differences in dynamics and tone. The attention to detail continues as you notice a heavier hammer-weight in the low registers and a lighter one in the highs. Touch the white keys and you’ll be convinced by a revolutionary moisture-absorbing material that recreates the natural texture and tactile feel of real ivory – and for expressive pedaling techniques such as half-pedaling, simply connect the optional DP-10 pedal."
https://www.roland.com/uk/products/dp-10/
That's only the single pedal though so upgrading to 3-4 pedals is going to get expensive.

Last edited by Key Fumbler (14-09-2022 18:35)

Reply by Canon_D

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Re: thinking about a VPC1 + pianoteq for classical music ?

Key Fumbler wrote:

EDIT: It supports half pedalling with a separate upgrade pedal:
"PHA-4 Standard keyboard delivers the responsive feel of a fine acoustic piano, with every nuance whether you play hard or soft captured by Roland’s touch-detection technology. With high-resolution sensing and escapement for fast key repetition, the PHA-4 keyboard faithfully translates into sound the subtlest differences in dynamics and tone. The attention to detail continues as you notice a heavier hammer-weight in the low registers and a lighter one in the highs. Touch the white keys and you’ll be convinced by a revolutionary moisture-absorbing material that recreates the natural texture and tactile feel of real ivory – and for expressive pedaling techniques such as half-pedaling, simply connect the optional DP-10 pedal."

Aha, good to know!

Reply by Michael10

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Re: thinking about a VPC1 + pianoteq for classical music ?

I use the VPC1 all the time for silent practice (headphones), on a 4 year old Macbook with  a Motu Audio Interface.
Of course it's not perfect, but in my experience it's just fine for up to a very high level of playing.

Latency is very low, not noticeable. For me it's perfect for practicing and beyond!
You'd have to spend a lot more to get a better action/solution in my experience, sometimes I see used MP11s for sale around here, which would be the only alternative for me in this price range. For classical / jazz the only other option for me would be a NV10S or a yamaha N1X, but I can't afford them at the moment.

The oner thing that's really bad with the VPC1 is the included pedal. It's garbage and will break after a lot of use.
The first time I broke mine, I opened it and fixed it mechanically. Then it broke again...
I'm now using a Roland Pedal with a little box that translates the pedal info to midi via usb. This works just fine, the Roland is much better built than the Kawai-Pedal. As I understand, Kawai fixed the pedal issue on the MP11SE. which comes with a much better pedal.

Reply by BarbaraRB

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Re: thinking about a VPC1 + pianoteq for classical music ?

Key Fumbler wrote:
dazric wrote:

My understanding is that the FP-10 doesn't support continous pedalling, but the FP-30 definitely does. However, my info comes from reading a post about the FP-10 some time ago, so maybe Roland have updated it since then?

Aha, I should've Googled FP-10.
EDIT: It supports half pedalling with a separate upgrade pedal:
"PHA-4 Standard keyboard delivers the responsive feel of a fine acoustic piano, with every nuance whether you play hard or soft captured by Roland’s touch-detection technology. With high-resolution sensing and escapement for fast key repetition, the PHA-4 keyboard faithfully translates into sound the subtlest differences in dynamics and tone. The attention to detail continues as you notice a heavier hammer-weight in the low registers and a lighter one in the highs. Touch the white keys and you’ll be convinced by a revolutionary moisture-absorbing material that recreates the natural texture and tactile feel of real ivory – and for expressive pedaling techniques such as half-pedaling, simply connect the optional DP-10 pedal."
https://www.roland.com/uk/products/dp-10/
That's only the single pedal though so upgrading to 3-4 pedals is going to get expensive.


I don't believe the FP10 can be upgraded to three pedals.

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: thinking about a VPC1 + pianoteq for classical music ?

BarbaraRB wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:
dazric wrote:

My understanding is that the FP-10 doesn't support continous pedalling, but the FP-30 definitely does. However, my info comes from reading a post about the FP-10 some time ago, so maybe Roland have updated it since then?

Aha, I should've Googled FP-10.
EDIT: It supports half pedalling with a separate upgrade pedal:
"PHA-4 Standard keyboard delivers the responsive feel of a fine acoustic piano, with every nuance whether you play hard or soft captured by Roland’s touch-detection technology. With high-resolution sensing and escapement for fast key repetition, the PHA-4 keyboard faithfully translates into sound the subtlest differences in dynamics and tone. The attention to detail continues as you notice a heavier hammer-weight in the low registers and a lighter one in the highs. Touch the white keys and you’ll be convinced by a revolutionary moisture-absorbing material that recreates the natural texture and tactile feel of real ivory – and for expressive pedaling techniques such as half-pedaling, simply connect the optional DP-10 pedal."
https://www.roland.com/uk/products/dp-10/
That's only the single pedal though so upgrading to 3-4 pedals is going to get expensive.


I don't believe the FP10 can be upgraded to three pedals.

Directly no. However Pianoteq (or any other piano plugin) doesn't need that. You can combine MIDI controllers to achieve this on a computer.
USB Midi foot pedal adapters can take different types of pedals - calibrate them in firmware too.

https://www.audiofront.net/MIDIExpression.php

Last edited by Key Fumbler (14-09-2022 23:34)

Reply by Canon_D

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Re: thinking about a VPC1 + pianoteq for classical music ?

Key Fumbler wrote:

EDIT: It supports half pedalling with a separate upgrade pedal:
"PHA-4 Standard keyboard delivers the responsive feel of a fine acoustic piano, with every nuance whether you play hard or soft captured by Roland’s touch-detection technology. With high-resolution sensing and escapement for fast key repetition, the PHA-4 keyboard faithfully translates into sound the subtlest differences in dynamics and tone. The attention to detail continues as you notice a heavier hammer-weight in the low registers and a lighter one in the highs. Touch the white keys and you’ll be convinced by a revolutionary moisture-absorbing material that recreates the natural texture and tactile feel of real ivory – and for expressive pedaling techniques such as half-pedaling, simply connect the optional DP-10 pedal."

Aha, good to know!

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: thinking about a VPC1 + pianoteq for classical music ?

BarbaraRB wrote:

I don't believe the FP10 can be upgraded to three pedals.

You can add extra pedals to any MIDI controller when you work with virtual instruments such as Pianoteq:
https://youtu.be/2DDwtEGpdqE

Reply by BarbaraRB

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Re: thinking about a VPC1 + pianoteq for classical music ?

Key Fumbler wrote:
BarbaraRB wrote:

I don't believe the FP10 can be upgraded to three pedals.

You can add extra pedals to any MIDI controller when you work with virtual instruments such as Pianoteq:
https://youtu.be/2DDwtEGpdqE

That's amazing!

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: thinking about a VPC1 + pianoteq for classical music ?

BarbaraRB wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:
BarbaraRB wrote:

I don't believe the FP10 can be upgraded to three pedals.

You can add extra pedals to any MIDI controller when you work with virtual instruments such as Pianoteq:
https://youtu.be/2DDwtEGpdqE

That's amazing!

Another maufacturer offering similar USB adaptor:
https://www.doremidi.cn/h-pd-48.html

This one which looks more limited, but widely available:
https://beatbars.com/en/expression-to-midi.html

Reply by joannchr

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Re: thinking about a VPC1 + pianoteq for classical music ?

Hi,
I use a VPC1 and pianoteq 7.5 , have also a MP11 and play classical.
I tend to use the VPC1 more because of the versatility of pianoteq. IMHO the difference in key action is minimal, some pianists actually prefer the VPC1 over the MP11 so its more a question of personal preference. A very good in classical is to try to play Scarlatti sonata K141. Both keyboards are extraordinarily responsive for repeated notes. I haven't found a single digital keyboard or acoustic upright able to compete here. Only acoustic grand does it better.
You don't need a DAW , just need speakers as the VPC1 is just a midi instrument with no built speakers. Pianoteq includes the sequencer and can pass sound out to any speakers.
VPC 1 and pianoteq is a set up difficult to beat indeed.


raoulpetite wrote:

Hi there,

I am a pre-newbie ! Still do not own a controller. And my questions for now still focus on buying one  and the reason why I am here is because I’ll certainly use pianoteq as it looks like a very good option for a realistic piano experience. Let me add that I am not the one concerned but I am acting on behalf of my teen daughter

She’s playing at an intermediate level mainly classical stuffs like Chopin’s Waltz, Bach’s well tempered clavier (only the 3 voice pieces for now), .. We already have an acoustic piano at home but she cannot play it as often as she wants for several reasons which are out of the scope of this post. So, what I want to get is a mean for her to play in her small bedroom, as silently as possible with a keyboard as close as possible to the action of a real acoustic so that she can efficiently practice. She really wants to improve her playing and also expressiveness (that’s very important to her ). After she had tried many digital pianos in our neighborhood, the only actions that she really likes are those with wooden keys (excepted yamaha’s NWX). And the ones she prefers by far are Kawai’s grand feel but also RM3 grand (on a used MP10). But we are budget-limited and then, I logically find Kawai’s VPC1 as being a good alternative. But as there is no way to try one out there and as I have a very poor experience in midi controllers, please allow me to ask few newbie questions.

First a silly question since it is written in the pianoteq’s homepage : can it be run standalone ? No need for a DAW ? More seriously, running standalone probably requires less computational power and so is more efficient, isn't it ?

As I guess that many of you are advanced (classical) players on this forum , do you think it is a silly idea to buy a VPC1+pianoteq in the context I described above ? If you have any feedback regarding this configuration, I’ll read yours with great attention.

What are the possible difficulties I will have when connecting the VPC1 to a computer + pianoteq? (In the beginning, she will play though good-quality headphones she already owns) For what I read quickly on this forum, pianoteq does not seem to require a lot of computational power, but the real requirements (not the minimal ones) in order to run it without to much latency and “forgotten notes”  are not clear to me. She sometimes plays very fast (not as fast as advanced player of course but fast especially when practicing scales, finger exercises …)  Due to our budget, the computer will probably be a desktop rather than a laptop.  Should I prefer using a soundcard or not as pianoteq ?


Thank you !

Reply by Michael10

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Re: thinking about a VPC1 + pianoteq for classical music ?

BarbaraRB wrote:

This one which looks more limited, but widely available:
https://beatbars.com/en/expression-to-midi.html

I currently use this one together with a Roland FP10, and it works great. The first one they've sent me was defective, but I got a replacement within a few days.

Reply by johanibraaten

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Re: thinking about a VPC1 + pianoteq for classical music ?

raoulpetite wrote:

Hi there,

I am a pre-newbie ! Still do not own a controller. And my questions for now still focus on buying one  and the reason why I am here is because I’ll certainly use pianoteq as it looks like a very good option for a realistic piano experience. Let me add that I am not the one concerned but I am acting on behalf of my teen daughter

She’s playing at an intermediate level mainly classical stuffs like Chopin’s Waltz, Bach’s well tempered clavier (only the 3 voice pieces for now), .. We already have an acoustic piano at home but she cannot play it as often as she wants for several reasons which are out of the scope of this post. So, what I want to get is a mean for her to play in her small bedroom, as silently as possible with a keyboard as close as possible to the action of a real acoustic so that she can efficiently practice. She really wants to improve her playing and also expressiveness (that’s very important to her ). After she had tried many digital pianos in our neighborhood, the only actions that she really likes are those with wooden keys (excepted yamaha’s NWX). And the ones she prefers by far are Kawai’s grand feel but also RM3 grand (on a used MP10). But we are budget-limited and then, I logically find Kawai’s VPC1 as being a good alternative. But as there is no way to try one out there and as I have a very poor experience in midi controllers, please allow me to ask few newbie questions.

First a silly question since it is written in the pianoteq’s homepage : can it be run standalone ? No need for a DAW ? More seriously, running standalone probably requires less computational power and so is more efficient, isn't it ?

As I guess that many of you are advanced (classical) players on this forum , do you think it is a silly idea to buy a VPC1+pianoteq in the context I described above ? If you have any feedback regarding this configuration, I’ll read yours with great attention.

What are the possible difficulties I will have when connecting the VPC1 to a computer + pianoteq? (In the beginning, she will play though good-quality headphones she already owns) For what I read quickly on this forum, pianoteq does not seem to require a lot of computational power, but the real requirements (not the minimal ones) in order to run it without to much latency and “forgotten notes”  are not clear to me. She sometimes plays very fast (not as fast as advanced player of course but fast especially when practicing scales, finger exercises …)  Due to our budget, the computer will probably be a desktop rather than a laptop.  Should I prefer using a soundcard or not as pianoteq ?


Thank you !

HI Raoulpetite.

It's not silly at all to consider VPC1+Pianoteq as a setup for classical piano playing. As you say, the VPC1 probably offers the finest action you can find (new) for that price and Pianoteq offers maybe the most flexible and nuanced sound source there is for a digital keyboard instrument and together they can give a very pleasant piano experience. However, it requires an optional computer and a stand to get it working and if you want to play without headphones you also need speakers so in the end it doesn't necessarily become cheaper than buying a digital piano.

As your daughter seems to be fond of Kawai wooden actions I would recommend to also take look at Kawai CA-49. It's the company's cheapest console piano with a wooden action. This piano has an action called Grand Feel Compact (GFC) and it's really not too different from the Grand Feel action, and IMO not inferior at all to the RM3 action. With a piano like this you'll get a great action, built in speakers, a furniture/stand and great built in sounds for a decent price. And my experience (I'm a piano teacher) is that to be able to just turn the piano on and sit down and play sometimes makes you practice more, and that is worth more for the pianistic and musical development than any fancy action or sound in the world. And the the CA-49 has of course MIDI so it works perfectly as a controller for Pianoteq if you prefer that. Another benefit you'll get with a console piano is a note stand at a proper height that'll make your seating position more "accurate" and more in line with how you sit at a grand piano.

As for the required hardware you don't need a very expensive computer to run Pianoteq, you can run Pianoteq on a raspberry pie.  And if the computer has decent built in sound card you don't need a dedicated audio interface just for playing. You might have to install so called ASIO drivers to reduce latency, especially if your platform is Windows or Linux. That's not necessary on a Mac since Mac OS has good midi/audio drivers built in.

I hope you'll find a great solution for your daughter and that she'll enjoy playing music for years to come.

Last edited by johanibraaten (20-09-2022 20:00)

Reply by Mnls

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Re: thinking about a VPC1 + pianoteq for classical music ?

Hey there!

I use a VPC1 with pianoteq (7.x) and multiple other vst-instruments.
Compared to keyboards I used before its just a different world!

I bought the vpc 2 years ago blindley after a lot of internet research and don´t regret it ever since.
Keybehavior sometimes may be too slow for some plugins (Drums). Need adjustment after recording. To play a virtual piano (or e-piano) I find it great!

Got a real piano too. Keys are "lighter" here - more easy to press which was confusing first times I played the vpc but got used to it.

I got no problems at all with velocity curves inside pianoteq.
I usualy do not adjust velocity curves for any vst I´m using nor generelly at my DAWs: FL Studio + StudioOne. (Normaly don´t use pianoteq in standalone.)

Only thing I miss is that the vpc got no pitch-wheel ;(
I got the "Touché" controller by "Expressive E" to put expression to instruments like Cello and other stuff from the SWAM-bundle (also great!).

Kind regards!
Manuel

Last edited by Mnls (23-09-2022 12:52)

Reply by joannchr

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Re: thinking about a VPC1 + pianoteq for classical music ?

If that may help , it doesn’t matter than the FP10 doesn’t come up with half pedal , you just buy a midi to USB adapter ( doremidi) or other and a pedal like the Roland DP10 which is the best sustain pedal on the market with very effective half pedalling .Pianoteq listen to all midi inputs so you will combine the midi coming out of the FP10 and the pedal signals sent to your computer via the ( adapter and DP10) and then you have a setup with is quite low price and that beats big time digital pianos in the 3-5k $ range !  Midi to USB adapter is 50$ , Roland DP10 is 50$ too .