Reply by Philippe Guillaume

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

Chopin87 wrote:
Philippe Guillaume wrote:
JohnTate wrote:

What does that entail Phil_G,  do you mean a complete revamp of the algorithm/ modeling,   or a tweaking of existing profiles ?

I mean a revoicing. The currrent version is in fact quite close to the original instrument we recorded, so it becomes more a matter of taste or a matter of reference (as far as I can hear from other sampled version, there can be important differences from one Wurlitzer model 200A to another one, unless these differences are due to EQing during recording/design).

Yes, that's because the 200A is the more "polished" version of the Wurlitzer. It's kinda like trying to find a difference between say 2 different models of the MarkVII where the components have been optimized. But if we look at some different models like the 120 f.e. which had different amp (tubes not solid state, it always comes back to that, sorry!), different action, and different case (wood instead of plastic) than you can hear those differences much more.

In that case, that means that the differences observed between different 200A samples libraries are not due to the instruments but to the libraries sound designers, is that the right conclusion?

Philippe Guillaume's Website

Reply by Chopin87

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

Philippe Guillaume wrote:
Chopin87 wrote:
Philippe Guillaume wrote:

I mean a revoicing. The currrent version is in fact quite close to the original instrument we recorded, so it becomes more a matter of taste or a matter of reference (as far as I can hear from other sampled version, there can be important differences from one Wurlitzer model 200A to another one, unless these differences are due to EQing during recording/design).

Yes, that's because the 200A is the more "polished" version of the Wurlitzer. It's kinda like trying to find a difference between say 2 different models of the MarkVII where the components have been optimized. But if we look at some different models like the 120 f.e. which had different amp (tubes not solid state, it always comes back to that, sorry!), different action, and different case (wood instead of plastic) than you can hear those differences much more.

In that case, that means that the differences observed between different 200A samples libraries are not due to the instruments but to the libraries sound designers, is that the right conclusion?

If I get your question right I would say partially yes. I think the big difference is usually how it is recorded rather than the setup of the instrument itself (they are not a 100% copy of each other but they definitely sound very close in pristine condition). For the Wurlitzer it was not uncommon to record the speaker of the instrument itself and there the amps used made a lot of difference. I find less differences when I compare just the pure mono output in the EPs. These days is not uncommon for many enginers to do geeky mods, bypass preamps which might create noise and record a more hifi sound directly from the pick ups. I think sample library devs do the same and then record the noises as well or sometimes they even cut the samples through spectral editing. They sum them up through samplers in the end.
That's also why I love the CP80 model model. Being more close to the pianos, it simply captures the magic of the acoustic part which is totally absent in single notes samples of the instrument recorded by the output. And that nature does not go away no matter which kind of sound output you choose in PTQ.

Last edited by Chopin87 (05-03-2022 04:01)
"And live to be the show and gaze o' the time."  (William Shakespeare)

Reply by weightedKeys

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

I just listened to the clavinet D6 sound examples on the modartt website - it would be great to have those as instrument presets.
they sound amazing.

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

weightedKeys wrote:

I just listened to the clavinet D6 sound examples on the modartt website - it would be great to have those as instrument presets.
they sound amazing.

The sound examples are of course Pianoteq. Rather than listening through all of the different tracks which tracks are you referring to?

"Modartt: Hohner collection" https://www.modartt.com/hohner_collection

Reply by weightedKeys

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

Key Fumbler wrote:
weightedKeys wrote:

I just listened to the clavinet D6 sound examples on the modartt website - it would be great to have those as instrument presets.
they sound amazing.

The sound examples are of course Pianoteq. Rather than listening through all of the different tracks which tracks are you referring to?

"Modartt: Hohner collection" https://www.modartt.com/hohner_collection


all the clavinet d6 examples are quite nice, but none of them are using a preset. they are not even labelled as 'customised'. I like their groovy/funky sound.

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

weightedKeys wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:
weightedKeys wrote:

I just listened to the clavinet D6 sound examples on the modartt website - it would be great to have those as instrument presets.
they sound amazing.

The sound examples are of course Pianoteq. Rather than listening through all of the different tracks which tracks are you referring to?

"Modartt: Hohner collection" https://www.modartt.com/hohner_collection


all the clavinet d6 examples are quite nice, but none of them are using a preset. they are not even labelled as 'customised'. I like their groovy/funky sound.

Then experiment with chorus, flange and delays. Plate and spring reverb too.
9/10ths of the funky clavinet sound is how it's played methinks.

Jordan Rudess in contrast did something quite different there though,  showing his considerable technical classically trained Prog rock skills.  A world away from the groovy/funky sound, and why not.

Reply by obiwan

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

weightedKeys wrote:
Luc Henrion wrote:
aWc wrote:

I think that one reason why a lot of Pianoteq users are not satisfied with the electrics is that their sound set up is optimized for the acoustic models (this is the case with our living room set up here). The electrics benefit from a more "rock-style" amplification (I can certainly hear this in my studio set up).

This is exactly my feeling too, hence the use of the Boogex plug-in...


how exactly do you use an additional amp? you run pianoteq inside a DAW, and add an amp plugin there? I usually run pianoteq standalone, but might be worth checking the DAW options

I've had great results using the CP80 'line output' model and then pairing it with Guitar Rig 6 for external amp sims/effects. It even has a special preset section for pianos (so isn't just limited to Guitars). It's a smorgasbord of effects that you can run any audio instrument through. They sound stunning!

Reply by Ecaroh

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

Hmmm.   

I posted a critical text about PTQ Rhodes but I deleted it because I gave a second chance and tested it once again. Maybe Modartt has improved the model but it actually sounded better than I remembered. Still I feel there's a lot of room for improvement and again to my ears the attack part is lacking some nuances. Rhodes attack has special character and more nuances from pp to fff. This has been my PTQ critic for years: PTQ does well piano's sustain and of course resonances but there's more problematic on the attack side of the sound. Well, probably that's the most difficult to model for many reasons. First it's the probably the most complex moment physically but also our hearing is tuned to hear attacks (I suppose).

I believe e-pianos are much more easy to model than acoustic ones but Modartt hasn't paid that much attention to e-side. To me this is fine. I am happy with their acoustic pianos and especially percussions.

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Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

Personally I find the Pianoteq Rhodes models very close to the real thing. Not to say it can't get even better. The AAS and GSI physical modelling are both also very close,  enough so that the sound blends with the real thing.

Here's a direct comparison with the Crumar GSI modelling and a real Rhodes. It's not exactly the same all the time but A/B comparison makes a nonsense of the kind of comments you find on some forums where people claim vast differences to their golden ears.

https://youtu.be/LW0sObk726w

It would be nice to see a similar comparison with carefully crafted Pianoteq presets.

Typically DAW PC hardware should be far more powerful than the dedicated DSP in the Crumar so the "it's hardware therefore better" argument doesn't apply here.

I could be convinced otherwise but subjectively I've found all the physically modelled Wurlies that I've heard so far a little less convincing, but still sound great (and I prefer Rhodes  sounds anyway).

Reply by jacko

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

Key Fumbler wrote:

Here's a direct comparison with the Crumar GSI modelling and a real Rhodes. It's not exactly the same all the time but A/B comparison makes a nonsense of the kind of comments you find on some forums where people claim vast differences to their golden ears.

https://youtu.be/LW0sObk726w

It would be nice to see a similar comparison with carefully crafted Pianoteq presets.

here's the same guy running through a bunch of pianoteq EP configs, comparing with his physical EP and just a little bit with his Nord further on. Helps to turn on the subtitles. jump forward to 25:00 for the EPs

https://youtu.be/jn6C8u5aJ20

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

Cheers for link. Yes 25:10 on he's playing the EP and real Rhodes.

Reply by jacko

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

Key Fumbler wrote:

Cheers for link. Yes 25:10 on he's playing the EP and real Rhodes.

they need some tweaking, but as you said in an earlier post wrt a different comparison:

"It's not exactly the same all the time but A/B comparison makes a nonsense of the kind of comments you find on some forums where people claim vast differences to their golden ears."

Last edited by jacko (26-07-2022 08:00)

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

jacko wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:

Cheers for link. Yes 25:10 on he's playing the EP and real Rhodes.

they need some tweaking, but as you said in an earlier post wrt a different comparison:

"It's not exactly the same all the time but A/B comparison makes a nonsense of the kind of comments you find on some forums where people claim vast differences to their golden ears."

I'm hearing mainly EQ and reverb differences here, but also the result of velocity curve differences between the real Rhodes MK2 and that Nord keyboard.
The resonance of the tines is extremely realistic or believable and any audible difference between them could simply be representing the difference between different units of the Rhodes pianos as opposed to differences between physically modelled tines and real tines.

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

Something different with a Rhodes:
https://youtu.be/d_rbEthOdf0

Reply by rAC

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

I think that they are pretty good.

Reply by jacko

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

Key Fumbler wrote:

Something different with a Rhodes:
https://youtu.be/d_rbEthOdf0

thanks for sharing. that's brilliant

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

jacko wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:

Something different with a Rhodes:
https://youtu.be/d_rbEthOdf0

thanks for sharing. that's brilliant

Perhaps a more obvious classic, but still a great video:
https://youtu.be/3deQXzV-qTk

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

Valente in the Vintage Vibe factory:
https://youtu.be/eqdAjxTljlE

Reply by BarbaraRB

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

Pianoteqenthusiast wrote:
budo wrote:

i like the EPs a lot, including the Hohner pack.

I agree with budo. I have used both. Here a short clip from my version of ”Swing low sweet chariot”, where I’m playing with Organteq and have a solo with ”Hohner Planet T Soft Pan Tremolo”. "Edited" a bit. I like the sound.

https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...Planet.mov

Best wishes,

Stig

That's gorgeous, Stig!

Reply by Pianoteqenthusiast

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

BarbaraRB wrote:
Pianoteqenthusiast wrote:
budo wrote:

i like the EPs a lot, including the Hohner pack.

I agree with budo. I have used both. Here a short clip from my version of ”Swing low sweet chariot”, where I’m playing with Organteq and have a solo with ”Hohner Planet T Soft Pan Tremolo”. "Edited" a bit. I like the sound.

https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...Planet.mov

Best wishes,

Stig

That's gorgeous, Stig!

Thanks a million BarbaraRB. I appreciate your encouragement. The special sound with Organteq stops - I used same technique that Michael B Tretow used when mixing Swedish Abba group sound in the 70s......
(Oh I saw that I have over 2000 posts. Unbelievable how time goes by very quickly…….)

Best wishes,

Stig

Reply by BarbaraRB

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

Piet De Ridder wrote:
jamesb5 wrote:

think they're terrible and need a lot of work (...)


I don’t think they’re terrible at all, absolutely not, but I do agree there is room for improvement, especially with regard to the instruments' ‘mimicking potential’. To me, the current versions of the PTQ Rhodes and Wurlitzer are more suggestive of the real instruments rather than nailing these instruments’ sounds and identity. I tend to consider them sort of distant relatives.

Now, ‘being suggestive of’ is frequently entirely satisfying as far as I’m concerned — I really do enjoy playing and working with the PTQ’s electric pianos —, but I also do believe that if Pianoteq wants to compete in the top echelon of uncanny Rhodes and Wurlitzer virtualizations, offering a sound, dynamic response and character that has listeners wondering if they’re listening to the real thing or not (which I can’t see happening all that often with the current versions), then yes, these two PTQ instruments do require some more work.

In their role as distant relatives of the originals however, I like 'em both very much. I have a similar soft spot for the AAS Lounge Lizard: no one in robust mental health and familiar with a real Rhodes or Wurlitzer, would ever mistake the Lizard for the real thing, but the instrument has a related timbre all of its own which I've come to like quite a lot over the years. I feel sort of the same way about Pianoteq's current Rhodes and Wurlitzer.


_

Have you tried/do you like the UVI Soundscape EPs?

Reply by Piet De Ridder

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

Barbara,

I’m not very familiar with the Soundscape instruments, no, but I do have the UVI / Acoustic Samples VReeds and VTines which, if there’s a real musical need for believable simulation in a piece, are my first choices. I actually stopped buying, even looking into, new virtual Rhodesses and Wurlitzers the day I installed the VTines and VReeds. Extra-ordinarily good, these two. In my opinion, anyway.

Next to those, and the Pianoteq instruments, there are some rather good choices in Spectrasonics’s Keyscape, I find, and there’s also a decent sample set of Chick Corea’s electric piano available as an expansion for the Yamaha Montage which I quite like. The updated Arturia electric pianos are an improvement over their predecessors as well, and then there’s a handful of Kontakt-libraries — from developers such as NeoSoul, Scarbee, Sonic Couture, Orange Tree, and several smaller ones — which all bring their own specific, and occasionally perfectly fitting flavour of Rhodesism or Wurlitzerism to a mix.

I used to have the two Waves electric pianos too (and while not very realistic, they were always enjoyable to play), but since updating my computer, I had to abandon Waves, so I no longer have access to those.

GSi also has pretty good virtualizations of the Rhodes (and a very good one of the Hammond electric organ) which are available in plugin format, and can also be found as part of the sound engine in the Crumar hardware. (My new favourite virtual Hammond is the UA Waterfall however. Unbelievably good.)

Never dismiss Pianoteq though. I look at Pianoteq as a glorious work of art in progress, and capable of the most wonderful surprises with every new update.

__

Last edited by Piet De Ridder (27-08-2022 12:51)

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

BarbaraRB wrote:

Have you tried/do you like the UVI Soundscape EPs?

As he is a Pianoteq beta tester he might be privy to updates on the existing Pianoteq models - or even new models. Then again I imagine there is a non disclosure agreement on that stuff.

Personally I do think the language Piet chose here was a bit too strong. From his words a total novice could imagine something much, much less realistic than they would actually get from frankly any of the physical modelled pianos out there (as put the video comparisons), especially when he was implying anyone who might get confused was mentally ill!

I can understand the frustration from an enthusiast who would want something to sound just right - the 'n'th degree. Perhaps there is the world of difference between actually having the real instruments in front of you and playing the raw instrument on its own versus what we are used to on just about any commercial recording (caked in FX and production).

I can also understand the disgust from Rhodes when he heard the 1980s Roland impression of the Rhodes EP sound when they bought the company and brought out the Mk80.
To me Piet's description would fit something closer to that I suggest. Whereas frankly numerous Rhodes plugins could fool the public in a mix - especially with flange and chorus effects which are normally used on the majority of Rhodes recordings in my experience anyway. It's quite rare to hear a raw Rhodes in commercial mixes.

If I play the the Rhodes and Wurly sounds on the graded hammer action keyboard then play them on the synth action keyboard it might as well be a completely different instrument.
This very much also applies to the Applied Acoustic Systems Lounge Lizard too. They do their product no favours demonstrating it with a synth action keyboard - the velocity response is completely wrong and makes both Lounge Lizard and Pianoteq EP models sound synthy.  I actually find acoustic piano models fare much, much better on synth action than electric keyboards do!

I would say that all of the physical models that I've heard so far are more successful at reproducing the Rhodes sound than the Wurly.
Combine synth keys with the Wurly models and I could sympathize more.

All that said if they can make some improvement the models it will be most welcome.

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

I will add that I don't like any of the factory presets for Pianoteq electric pianos. I roll my own. Same with the Lounge Lizard.

To me the acoustic piano presets are comfortably better.

I see Piet has come with an interesting answer at the same time as my overly long post.

V Tines and Reeds do indeed sound good. I've heard those before. I imagine that the factory presets are quite usable.

Reply by dazric

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

Piet De Ridder wrote:

I look at Pianoteq as a glorious work of art in progress, and capable of the most wonderful surprises with every new update.

__

That's exactly the way I feel about it!

Regarding the electric pianos in Pianoteq, I'm not too bothered about authenticity, I just enjoy them for what they are. I particularly like the Hohner collection and the CP-80. I'm much more fussy about the acoustic piano models, and there's still room for improvement there. But I do have faith in Modartt, they will get there eventually!

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

dazric wrote:
Piet De Ridder wrote:

I look at Pianoteq as a glorious work of art in progress, and capable of the most wonderful surprises with every new update.

__

That's exactly the way I feel about it!

Regarding the electric pianos in Pianoteq, I'm not too bothered about authenticity, I just enjoy them for what they are. I particularly like the Hohner collection and the CP-80. I'm much more fussy about the acoustic piano models, and there's still room for improvement there. But I do have faith in Modartt, they will get there eventually!

I can wholeheartedly agree with both users comments here.
I find the CP80 can be every bit as good as the best sampled versions ( to my taste) when considerable EQ adjustment is made. Not only sounding more like commercial recordings (with inevitable FX) but also the videos of the instrument recorded in the raw.

Mainly this involves rolling off the hot treble.

Reply by Doremi

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

DPs are a different instrument from APs, there's no doubt, but once I moved to DPs I never looked back. I love them a lot more for reasons which are too long to explain but mostly boil down to how easy they are to use and play.

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

Doremi wrote:

DPs are a different instrument from APs, there's no doubt, but once I moved to DPs I never looked back. I love them a lot more for reasons which are too long to explain but mostly boil down to how easy they are to use and play.

Let's not derail the thread.
That belongs in its own topic.

Reply by BarbaraRB

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

Piet De Ridder wrote:

Barbara,

I’m not very familiar with the Soundscape instruments, no, but I do have the UVI / Acoustic Samples VReeds and VTines which, if there’s a real musical need for believable simulation in a piece, are my first choices. I actually stopped buying, even looking into, new virtual Rhodesses and Wurlitzers the day I installed the VTines and VReeds. Extra-ordinarily good, these two. In my opinion, anyway.

Next to those, and the Pianoteq instruments, there are some rather good choices in Spectrasonics’s Keyscape, I find, and there’s also a decent sample set of Chick Corea’s electric piano available as an expansion for the Yamaha Montage which I quite like. The updated Arturia electric pianos are an improvement over their predecessors as well, and then there’s a handful of Kontakt-libraries — from developers such as NeoSoul, Scarbee, Sonic Couture, Orange Tree, and several smaller ones — which all bring their own specific, and occasionaly perfectly fitting flavour of Rhodesism or Wurlitzerism to a mix.

I used to have the two Waves electric pianos too (and while not very realistic, they were always enjoyable to play), but since updating my computer, I had to abandon Waves, so I no longer have access to those.

GSi also has pretty good virtualizations of the Rhodes (and a very good one of the Hammond electric organ) which are available in plugin format, and can also be found as part of the sound engine in the Crumar hardware. (My new favourite virtual Hammond is the UA Waterfall however. Unbelievably good.)

Never dismiss Pianoteq though. I look at Pianoteq as a glorious work of art in progress, and capable of the most wonderful surprises with every new update.

__

Thank you for your very thorough answer. I was actually thinking of UVI KeySuite EPs -- some of the names are so similar that I "morph" them in my mind. That doesn't change anything about your comments, of course.  I think I have everything I could possibly want or need i Pianoteq, although I'm always curious about other virtual instruments.  Love your comment about Pianoteq being a "glorious work of art in progress." I especially love the CP-80 -- so perfect for many of the older rock songs I like to play.

Last edited by BarbaraRB (27-08-2022 12:58)

Reply by BarbaraRB

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

LaserGryph wrote:

I was disappointed when I realized that the Yamaha CP70/80 is no longer there in the list of available keyboards in my Pianoteq Pro 7. It was such a sweet sounding electric.

Any reason why it was taken out? I must be out of the loop.

The CP 70 is still there -- in the free KiViR instruments.

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

BarbaraRB wrote:

Thank you for your very thorough answer. I was actually thinking of UVI KeySuite EPs -- some of the names are so similar that I "morph" them in my mind. That doesn't change anything about your comments, of course.  I think I have everything I could possibly want or need i Pianoteq, although I'm always curious about other virtual instruments.  Love your comment about Pianoteq being a "glorious work of art in progress." I especially love the CP-80 -- so perfect for many of the older rock songs I like to play.

I see that the KeySuite Electric entire suite is only 40-50% bigger for than just the UVI Tacked 88 I have - both being pure sample libraries, not modelling hybrids.
Therefore I can say by current standards for each individual instruments we aren't going to be talking about deeply sampled instruments. So I guess the microphone positions and (more importantly) velocity layers will be more limited compared to the best sample libraries. That's not to say they wouldn't sound musical though.
Pianoteq doesn't have those limitations. You get as many velocity layers as your keyboard can muster, and each pressed key note can ring out for as long as the real thing without having to consider drive space or download limitations.
To be far I don't think it's aimed at the same customers.

I suppose the sample versions could give you another frame of reference. Whether you will find yourself gravitating towards it as a playable instrument collection is another question, once you've been spoilt by Pianoteq!

I have no doubt that the package would have its moments though.

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

Key Fumbler wrote:
BarbaraRB wrote:

Thank you for your very thorough answer. I was actually thinking of UVI KeySuite EPs -- some of the names are so similar that I "morph" them in my mind. That doesn't change anything about your comments, of course.  I think I have everything I could possibly want or need i Pianoteq, although I'm always curious about other virtual instruments.  Love your comment about Pianoteq being a "glorious work of art in progress." I especially love the CP-80 -- so perfect for many of the older rock songs I like to play.

I see that the KeySuite Electric entire suite is only 40-50% bigger for than just the UVI Tacked 88 I have - both being pure sample libraries, not modelling hybrids.
Therefore I can say by current standards for each individual instruments we aren't going to be talking about deeply sampled instruments. So I guess the microphone positions and (more importantly) velocity layers will be more limited compared to the best sample libraries. That's not to say they wouldn't sound musical though.
Pianoteq doesn't have those limitations. You get as many velocity layers as your keyboard can muster, and each pressed key note can ring out for as long as the real thing without having to consider drive space or download limitations.
To be far I don't think it's aimed at the same customers.

I suppose the sample versions could give you another frame of reference. Whether you will find yourself gravitating towards it as a playable instrument collection is another question, once you've been spoilt by Pianoteq!

I have no doubt that the package would have its moments though.

This response is more valuable than you can imagine, because it totally relieves my curiosity, which can have destructive outcomes. Too many choices lead to paralysis. There is no reason on earth why I need a huge sampled library. With Pianoteq, I have enough for a minimum of three lifetimes. Plus, I really believe modeled instruments are better, and I understand why. I need to focus on practicing the piano and enjoying Pianoteq. Plus, I need to stop reading about other libraries, which for me is a pointless waste of time and energy. A valuable saying: "You can never get enough of what you don't really want." I am going to take my own good advice from this point forward and focus on practicing, with Pianoteq. I have the Studio Edition. Enough!

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

BarbaraRB wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:
BarbaraRB wrote:

Thank you for your very thorough answer. I was actually thinking of UVI KeySuite EPs -- some of the names are so similar that I "morph" them in my mind. That doesn't change anything about your comments, of course.  I think I have everything I could possibly want or need i Pianoteq, although I'm always curious about other virtual instruments.  Love your comment about Pianoteq being a "glorious work of art in progress." I especially love the CP-80 -- so perfect for many of the older rock songs I like to play.

I see that the KeySuite Electric entire suite is only 40-50% bigger for than just the UVI Tacked 88 I have - both being pure sample libraries, not modelling hybrids.
Therefore I can say by current standards for each individual instruments we aren't going to be talking about deeply sampled instruments. So I guess the microphone positions and (more importantly) velocity layers will be more limited compared to the best sample libraries. That's not to say they wouldn't sound musical though.
Pianoteq doesn't have those limitations. You get as many velocity layers as your keyboard can muster, and each pressed key note can ring out for as long as the real thing without having to consider drive space or download limitations.
To be far I don't think it's aimed at the same customers.

I suppose the sample versions could give you another frame of reference. Whether you will find yourself gravitating towards it as a playable instrument collection is another question, once you've been spoilt by Pianoteq!

I have no doubt that the package would have its moments though.

This response is more valuable than you can imagine, because it totally relieves my curiosity, which can have destructive outcomes. Too many choices lead to paralysis. There is no reason on earth why I need a huge sampled library. With Pianoteq, I have enough for a minimum of three lifetimes. Plus, I really believe modelled instruments are better, and I understand why. I need to focus on practicing the piano and enjoying Pianoteq. Plus, I need to stop reading about other libraries, which for me is a pointless waste of time and energy. A valuable saying: "You can never get enough of what you don't really want." I am going to take my own good advice from this point forward and focus on practicing, with Pianoteq. I have the Studio Edition. Enough!

Glad you found that useful. I could joke about my cheque being in the post from Modartt but I made similar reasoning for not buying the Pro upgrade this time (I might do at a later date), or buying the extra packs I'm not particularly interested in (I've got all the modern pianos and electrics, and vibes). 

I do think the Studio pack is good value - for the right person.  Modartt seem like a classy company. There is no hard sell to upgrade to everything. No advertising blitz "only X days left" "did you forget this?"..

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

Key Fumbler wrote:
BarbaraRB wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:

I see that the KeySuite Electric entire suite is only 40-50% bigger for than just the UVI Tacked 88 I have - both being pure sample libraries, not modelling hybrids.
Therefore I can say by current standards for each individual instruments we aren't going to be talking about deeply sampled instruments. So I guess the microphone positions and (more importantly) velocity layers will be more limited compared to the best sample libraries. That's not to say they wouldn't sound musical though.
Pianoteq doesn't have those limitations. You get as many velocity layers as your keyboard can muster, and each pressed key note can ring out for as long as the real thing without having to consider drive space or download limitations.
To be far I don't think it's aimed at the same customers.

I suppose the sample versions could give you another frame of reference. Whether you will find yourself gravitating towards it as a playable instrument collection is another question, once you've been spoilt by Pianoteq!

I have no doubt that the package would have its moments though.

This response is more valuable than you can imagine, because it totally relieves my curiosity, which can have destructive outcomes. Too many choices lead to paralysis. There is no reason on earth why I need a huge sampled library. With Pianoteq, I have enough for a minimum of three lifetimes. Plus, I really believe modelled instruments are better, and I understand why. I need to focus on practicing the piano and enjoying Pianoteq. Plus, I need to stop reading about other libraries, which for me is a pointless waste of time and energy. A valuable saying: "You can never get enough of what you don't really want." I am going to take my own good advice from this point forward and focus on practicing, with Pianoteq. I have the Studio Edition. Enough!

Glad you found that useful. I could joke about my cheque being in the post from Modartt but I made similar reasoning for not buying the Pro upgrade this time (I might do at a later date), or buying the extra packs I'm not particularly interested in (I've got all the modern pianos and electrics, and vibes). 

I do think the Studio pack is good value - for the right person.  Modartt seem like a classy company. There is no hard sell to upgrade to everything. No advertising blitz "only X days left" "did you forget this?"..

I hadn't thought about it, but you are right. There is zero sales pressure, and that is calming. You have more self control than I do, and make wiser and more considered choices. Plus, you are much further along than I am and could actually make greater use of the larger library. Still, I like having the entire library. It gives me freedom to explore and I will use more and more over time. As you said, it is good value. I think Modaart is very thoughtful in their pricing, especially in view of what they offer. Buying a pack you can use for a lifetime is like buying three books (I use the library now) or a couple of tanks of gas (maybe!). There are endless comparisons I could make. For now, my very early new year's resolution is to use what I have and buy only what I need.

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

Key Fumbler wrote:
BarbaraRB wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:

I see that the KeySuite Electric entire suite is only 40-50% bigger for than just the UVI Tacked 88 I have - both being pure sample libraries, not modelling hybrids.
Therefore I can say by current standards for each individual instruments we aren't going to be talking about deeply sampled instruments. So I guess the microphone positions and (more importantly) velocity layers will be more limited compared to the best sample libraries. That's not to say they wouldn't sound musical though.
Pianoteq doesn't have those limitations. You get as many velocity layers as your keyboard can muster, and each pressed key note can ring out for as long as the real thing without having to consider drive space or download limitations.
To be far I don't think it's aimed at the same customers.

I suppose the sample versions could give you another frame of reference. Whether you will find yourself gravitating towards it as a playable instrument collection is another question, once you've been spoilt by Pianoteq!

I have no doubt that the package would have its moments though.

This response is more valuable than you can imagine, because it totally relieves my curiosity, which can have destructive outcomes. Too many choices lead to paralysis. There is no reason on earth why I need a huge sampled library. With Pianoteq, I have enough for a minimum of three lifetimes. Plus, I really believe modelled instruments are better, and I understand why. I need to focus on practicing the piano and enjoying Pianoteq. Plus, I need to stop reading about other libraries, which for me is a pointless waste of time and energy. A valuable saying: "You can never get enough of what you don't really want." I am going to take my own good advice from this point forward and focus on practicing, with Pianoteq. I have the Studio Edition. Enough!

Glad you found that useful. I could joke about my cheque being in the post from Modartt but I made similar reasoning for not buying the Pro upgrade this time (I might do at a later date), or buying the extra packs I'm not particularly interested in (I've got all the modern pianos and electrics, and vibes). 

I do think the Studio pack is good value - for the right person.  Modartt seem like a classy company. There is no hard sell to upgrade to everything. No advertising blitz "only X days left" "did you forget this?"..

Another nice thing is that if you upgrade, Modaart gives you credit for everything you bought in the past. So you never lose out by waiting. That's a very generous policy.

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

BarbaraRB wrote:

..You have more self control than I do, and make wiser and more considered choices.

Haha, thanks for that, I cannot claim that for myself but through the wonders of the internet you can get all kinds of false impressions of virtues. 
Another user could equally think I was an unwelcome skinflint!

First and foremost I'm into synthesizers, basically self taught. OTOH there are plenty of proper classically trained musicians around here. People who had the opportunity to put 3-6 hours a day into piano practice from a very young age, and hands-on experience with grand pianos.

BarbaraRB wrote:

Plus, you are much further along than I am and could actually make greater use of the larger library. Still, I like having the entire library. It gives me freedom to explore and I will use more and more over time. As you said, it is good value. I think Modartt is very thoughtful in their pricing, especially in view of what they offer. Buying a pack you can use for a lifetime is like buying three books (I use the library now) or a couple of tanks of gas (maybe!). There are endless comparisons I could make. For now, my very early new year's resolution is to use what I have and buy only what I need.

It's an excellent buy, if you think you'll use them at any time then it's a no-brainer. Even if you don't it's such good value, and you are supporting the development of a good company.
I started at Stage, didn't intend to upgrade from that. Slowly slowly catchy monkey..

As for the buying the gas I'm more worried about people stealing fuel now, all thanks to Vlad Vlad P and his absolutely catastrophic mistake, along with his feeble enablers allowing him to destroy his own country's future, along with everywhere else. What a desperate shame.

Before we have to break out the iodine tablets let's enjoy some funky playing on the Mk8 Rhodes:
https://youtu.be/hVn7qHsvKwo

Last edited by Key Fumbler (29-08-2022 07:53)

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

Listen to The top to bottom uniform response on the keyboard on that Rhodes Mark 8 video I put in the last post.  This shows it's a mechanically beautifully made piece of kit, but also so this is how most presets should be; that said the quality of his performance doesn't hurt either!

Far too many electric piano presets on all kinds of EP vsts I find are skewed horridly with no bass, heavily scooped mids or what have you. It's like they are formulated to sound like specific heavily EQ'ed classic tracks, but don't pull that off either.

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

Key Fumbler wrote:

Listen to The top to bottom uniform response on the keyboard on that Rhodes Mark 8 video I put in the last post.  This shows it's a mechanically beautifully made piece of kit, but also so this is how most presets should be; that said the quality of his performance doesn't hurt either!

Far too many electric piano presets on all kinds of EP vsts I find are skewed horridly with no bass, heavily scooped mids or what have you. It's like they are formulated to sound like specific heavily EQ'ed classic tracks, but don't pull that off either.


I enjoyed the Rhodes. The electric pianos and related instruments are really beyond me at this stage. I know I listened to them most of my life in the great pop, rock, blues, soul, and other music I love, but I have no idea what to do with them. Maybe someday.

What you said about supporting a great company really resonates with me. I often think that way when look at the massive amount of sheet music and music books I've amassed in a single year. Words fail me about that, but I tell myself (and believe) that I'm supporting a beautiful industry.

I don't post about Ukraine and other political topics, out of respect for the Forum, which isn't the right place. Learning piano, and sharing that journey with others, is a great solace in a tortured world. Music always pulls us through. One of the greatest of all life forces.

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

BarbaraRB wrote:

I don't post about Ukraine and other political topics, out of respect for the Forum, which isn't the right place. Learning piano, and sharing that journey with others, is a great solace in a tortured world. Music always pulls us through. One of the greatest of all life forces.

Okay. I took your couple of tanks of gas comment as dark humour about the current worsening situation with rocketing prices.
You won't find me discussing such matters here normally.
We can hope humans are still around to practice music for years to come. It all depends on if they let him throw all of his toys out of the pram.

Anyway enough of that misery, back to electric pianos and music.

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Re: what are your thoughts on the electric pianos?

Key Fumbler wrote:
BarbaraRB wrote:

I don't post about Ukraine and other political topics, out of respect for the Forum, which isn't the right place. Learning piano, and sharing that journey with others, is a great solace in a tortured world. Music always pulls us through. One of the greatest of all life forces.

Okay. I took your couple of tanks of gas comment as dark humour about the current worsening situation with rocketing prices.
You won't find me discussing such matters here normally.
We can hope humans are still around to practice music for years to come. It all depends on if they let him throw all of his toys out of the pram.

Anyway enough of that misery, back to electric pianos and music.

Oh!!!! I didn't mean that as a criticism in any way -- just that I couldn't say more in response to your comments.  The comment about gas was definitely dark humor.  I know the other issues are on everyone's minds; just that I couldn't say more.  I never thought I'd live to see days like what we are experiencing.