[ Closed ] Pianoteq has some hidden overtones that aggravate my tinnitus. (Page 1 of 3)

The difference between 250 and 4000 is a lot less than the difference between 20-30 and 250 in terms of removing frequency artefacts... Sennheiser HD 400 Pro, from what I could hear and from my general research is pretty low on artefacts and solid on a frequency sweep.

ASIDE from that - I can hear the same thing on every single headphone, speaker, thing I've used. Regardless, this happens on speakers, youtube videos, everything, you name it. Indeed, my ears my have some slightly more sensitive wiring, but I've poured put about 300 hours into tweaking Pianoteq to make it sound as perfect as possible at this point, so I'm pretty sensitive not only to difference, but things like auditory perception differences and how to actually account for this (i.e. you need to constantly reference real pianos in your tweaking if you want to do it well).

> There are neuro-aural connections we don't understand. It's similar to some people like me cannot use any Apple Screen, or an IPS screen, as I would see floaters and get discomfort and have the feel my vision turns blurry.

There are some good reasons why this would happen with an IPS, as well as a glossy Apple Screen; your eyes are constantly trying to reconcile two different images as the same object, so if there is glare and don't look the same. You use your depth perception to help focus your eyes, and therefore if your brain is struggling to reconcile the two images, you'll send signals to the eyes to try to focus on an image that will never reconcile itself, causing eye strain... Causing blurry vision and floaters.

For me, monitors with too low of a pixel density have a tendency to trigger migraines.

In my case, I think I may have actually suffered hearing *loss.* The tinnitus is worse,* permanently.* It's been like this for over a year since it first happened that way. Seems to have not gotten any worse since I switched to other pianos and am much more mindful of the ones that cause irritating frequencies. One day I just got really engrossed in tweaking of the sounds and then my ears have literally been ringing worse nonstop ever since.

But I suspect the problem is hidden, inharmonic frequencies at the moment of hammer strike, since this is the loudest sound. Here's one high probability cause:

The hammer impact is too loud because it has to be perceptible through the harmonic frequencies, which are also loud. So, the inharmonic frequencies are probably too loud, and it makes it seem and feel more realistic from a perception point of view....

Also, if it means anything, I can pick out Laurel and Yanny at the same time, with a little focus...

I dunno man, I expect more out of software that I've now spent 600 bucks on, and I also think Modartt would want to know if their software has the potential to cause hearing loss. Expensive =/= foolproof. 3M got sued for earplugs that didn't properly protect people's ears; it's not like that was malicious or that 3M is an incompetent company - quite the opposite, they make really high quality products in general. It's just "reality is complicated and - happens."

This is the sort of thing that is a really easy safety/quality oversight, and it should be brought to the attention of Modartt, as it's a *health risk,* which you don't just write off.

Given that there is a mild 5 kHz hump on those cans have you tried creating a commensurate dip in EQ response?

You could use Pianoteq in your DAW and have a monitoring only EQ set up. You could have individual EQ monitoring curves per ear within a DAW. Tokyo Dawn for instance has a stereo EQ mastering plugin you could use for that purpose.

1 day left in their Summer Sale FWIW:
https://www.tokyodawn.net/tdr-slickeq-m/

Here's a nicely balanced review of your HD400 Pro headphones which also discusses comparison with HD650 headphones. This tallies with my experience of HD650s and comparisons with slightly lower cost Sennheiser headphones, albeit quite a few years ago:
https://tapeop.com/reviews/gear/148/hd-...eadphones/

HD600, 650 and 600x all have a darker sound without giving up any details to slightly brighter slightly lower cost quality models.
Higher impedance headphones with better bass control, but also more apparent low end perhaps because of the lack of the slight hype right in the presence region, which can make those (still decent) lower cost headphones more immediately appealing, and therefore artificially revealing.

I say lower cost, evidently your 400 Pro headphones are still aimed at the pro market, and they are a quality design.

You may wish to consider trying some of the 600 series. On first acquaintance they could sound dark and boring, you only need to adjust slightly to something slightly less hyped.

Even so with high quality headphones as you have already your report could be cause for concern.
It may very well be that all those frustrated hours trying to tune the sound aren't exactly helping!

> With regrets Opus32, your other postings on a different thread is textbook "I'm going to lose my hearing any minute now" proof, to me, that there's not a mystery of hidden overtones - but only a mystery as to why you would prefer to grasp at such straws instead of posting "Hey - I hurt my hearing.. please don't do what I did"?

The problem is that Pianoteq is uniquely suited to the purpose of causing hearing damage by not being perceptibly loud. I didn't crank it up - I did do tweaking for many hours, but I've also listened to music for many hours without problem, and I've had similar days of long hours either writing music, or playing the piano without having this problem.

This ain't my first rodeo, basically, and when you have professionals using this software who often DO have to put in those kinds of hours to make ends meet, then yes, Modartt should absolutely be careful to make sure that in their sounds, they're not generating damaging noise that is hard to perceive.

> For readers wondering "Is this for real?".. Well, no. I don't think there are mysterious overtones harming people.. this is evident to me in the following posts by Opus32

It's not for you or I to say conclusively. You actually have to back it up with data.

> Really you don't. You begin to believe you've found a fantastic micro point to tweak.. you probably haven't. You're more likely tweaking things to solve your aching ears internal misery - and mistaking that as "more silky" or whatever it may seem to be.

My tweaking is actually striving for quality. My strategy is to use real pianos as reference, and do as many things as I can to improve my perception of the sounds I'm hearing.

The tweaking of hundreds of hours did actually lead to me producing one of the most downloaded sounds in the FXP corner, with many people who actually downloaded Pianoteq or bought additional content, or upgraded Pianoteq just so they could use that sound.

I've done lots of tweaking since with no degradation in my hearing or worsening of tinnitus, but I have avoided the newer pianos in doing that, and I have successfully reduced a lot of the issues I run into.

It's actually a lot like the whole Laurel vs. Yanny thing, where someone hears Laurel and someone else hears Yanny... Except the thing is, I can hear Laurel and Yanny at the same time and switch between the two. And, I can do that because I busted my ass training my brain to hear - like that.

Likewise, the new sounds are honestly *bad,* but if you're not primed to what sounds off about them, they'll sound great to you because your brain is primed to hear it in a certain way.

I think it's kind of funny how you look at hundreds of hours of tweaking as some pointless exercise, when I have actually found success in doing it, and the fact that I was able to do that is one of the prime reasons I got Pianoteq in the first place.

20-40 hours of tweaking is a fruitless exercise... when you get into the hundreds you actually start getting somewhere. Lol.... Dismissing hundreds of hours of tweaking.... Add in physics and years of playing.........

> Yes of course, indeed, hearing loss happens when we experience things too loud. To me, classic "turn it down" advice applies.

How are you supposed to know to turn it down if it doesn't even cause the perception of loudness in the first place? This is what I am driving at. It didn't seem loud, then I stopped and had an "oh -" moment. Perhaps fortuitously, the initial injury made my ears more sensitive to the original cause of the damage and hence I can tell when it's a problem.

Yes, my post is critical, but it's highly constructive feedback meant to ultimately help Pianoteq improve at the end of the day. Being able to take feedback is a part of life, and when that feedback comes from someone who's spent hundreds of hours basically playing the game of "try to beat the engineers who designed the software at their own software," maybe it's actually *good feedback.*

Also, you're unlikely to hear what I'm talking about if your brain is primed to hear the sound in a certain way, so you'll just hear something that sounds like a Steinway to you and you'll just think I'm on crack. Just like the Yanny people thought the Laurel people were on crack until they heard Laurel and couldn't hear Yanny anymore.. Lol.

Perhaps I do not perceive it as I use a RME ADI 2 DAC FS which has quite a few of hearing protection features. But who knows.

Opus32,

That interesting that your GF was able to pinpoint the source. It's something real that some of us are affected by. I just cannot deal with it any longer. Maybe Version 8 will be better. In the meantime I have to go with my sampled piano to protect my ears. I don't play at overly loud volumes and try to watch out for ear fatigue.

Take care!
Robert

Please just look after your ears, that's my main concern.

Of course plenty of audo gear, products, instruments make us feel like "Just one more notch and it will make me happy".. "Just another half hour and I'll nail this woohoo!".

It's possible to not allow yourself to lose track.. you posted that you went 14 hours straight, probably too loud, and your ears rang afterwards. YOU did that. All the rest is fluffy pudding.

In any pro setting, we look at metering too.. and nobody can lay blame on a mixing console, the makers of volume knobs, instruments or other inanimate things, for our own use cases, nor hearing loss, when we turn up too loud, for too long. Nice that you think so lowly of the rest of us on forum BTW.

The rest is splitting atoms for cover. Maybe in quantum physics, 2 things can co-exist in the same frame - but the 2 assertions made by Opus32 cannot co-exist without being examined and shown to be false.

Is it "aggravated my tinnitus" or "I literally got tinnitus"..

No point fussing with the rest. You don't seem to bother with facts, just self engrandizement as you insert magical ideations unattached to what you did.

I would never want to work on anything with someone with your attitude. You didnt' even think we might have professional audio careers? Or that we could hear differences in the parlour game of Laurel/Yanni.

It doesn't escape me, that this could have been an excellent discussion.

Nitpicking at wording mistakes is an incredibly low form of argument. You're looking to win and feel superior by attacking the lowest hanging fruit rather than seeking truth.

You do the worst thing by pointing out the "aggravating vs getting tinnitus" comment - look for something inconsistent in my words that was *accidentally stated* imprecisely, and then claim that my entire post is invalid because of how I spoke. Basically, it did *aggravate existing tinnitus that I've had my whole life,* but that aggravation was significant enough to make it like I had tinnitus for the first time, because my original tinnitus was quite mild. *So, pardon me for not splitting hairs about the source of the annoying whine in my ears.*

It's not like I can do anything about it now... it's been over a year since I made that error, but the new sounds are worse and I have not further injured myself. But, what I'm suggesting is that others may be more likely to injure themselves.

It's like whataboutism with propaganda trolls, or creating fake conversations that manufacture the illusion of doubt or debatability... since almost anything can be doubted or debated. It's a cheap, but sadly effective trick.

The real way to have a *good and fruitful conversation* is to try to make your opponent's argument as *strong as possible first* to demonstrate genuine understanding, i.e. look up steelman vs. strawman.

"Nice that you think so lowly of the rest of us on forum BTW."

When did I say that? I'd actually say you're being incredibly dismissive, and that's why I'm firing back at your basis for being so incredibly dismissive.

Are you an engineer? Do you have any formal physics training? Do you feel insulted because I am questioning your background? And, even if you are an engineer, that I'm still going to keep going down this path because my innate logical, intuitive and observational understanding of the situation leads me to strongly feel that Pianoteq is producing harmful overtones that *could damage hearing* in supposedly safe circumstances?

You do know that if your ears hurt, it's already *past the point at which damage can be done?* Right? Basic OSHA stuff there.

At some point, my ears can just hear a vast difference between Pianoteq and an actual recording of a high end piano, to the point where picking out Pianoteq in blind test is incredibly easy, especially because it hurts my ears in particular.

So, to be more precise, logically, and **this is where you can take me to task if you'd like:**

Pianoteq is possibly doing something like this:

1. In emulating hammer strike, the really short inharmonic overtones are also happening at an *inaudibly high pitch* for a short period of time, OR is masked by the presence of other overtones, making the high pitch in the audible hearing range, but hard to pick out amongst all the other overtones.
2. The effect of this is that in apparently hearing-safe volumes and times, damage may being done to hearing.

Keep in mind, ALL sound is the superposition of singular sinusoidal waveforms, so your square waves and sawtooth waves are specific superpositions (which, at one point I actually had to manually calculate as part of my course curriculum on Fourier analysis).

So, this is where my argument takes a more sublte form, and you need to pay attention to every detail or your understanding will be mistaken... Just like if you have a wrong IF statement in your code, or forget a parenthesis, the ENTIRE PROGRAM is wrong:

Argument 1:
1. Under conditions that have never caused me sudden hearing damage, which were still generally considered unsafe, I suffered hearing damage while using Pianoteq in particular.
2. Because I suffered that hearing damage under circumstances that wouldn't have caused hearing damage in the past (i.e. many 14 hour days were spent on music or with headphones with audio levels that didn't sound like they'd be damaging before that day I got injured), it seems likely that something about the nature of Pianoteq means that it's actually more irritating than its perceived sound levels would be.
3. Therefore, it's a *reasonable possibility that Pianoteq may be producing overtones that are outside of a "normal and safe" level, when the settings *appear to be normal and safe* as would be outlined by an organization such as OSHA.

Argument 2:
IF it's possible that a program is *possibly unsafe* based on the presence of overtones, then a *safety spectrum analysis should absolutely be performed,* and in fact, this forum post (which I've tracked) would also serve as evidence in a court of law of *willful negligence* if it was LATER found that such frequencies did exist.

So, basically, this is a serious matter, and not something that should be taken as lightly as "lol this guy is imagining overtones"

Hi Opus32,

I am glad that am not the only one who feel that.

Let me introduce myself a bit. I am a Conductor, Piano and Vocal teacher for many years. Many of my students also can hear the difference. Sorry for my bad English, please bear with me.

I like to solve the problem while the solution is not come up yet. Same thing, by putting many hours doodling around with so much obsession with lovely favorite Steinway model D. After all, my hearing still hurt. I had to stop for a weak to recover. What did I do?

Like I said, I like to find solution like yourself. However, my obsession towards particular Piano sound will not get us nowhere. 2 months ago I stop playing the Steinway D at all cost.

Then I play the other Piano such as Steingraeber, Grotrian and Bluthner, and I found out that I don't need to use the same Loudness volume as the Steinway model D. Hold Up, What's going on here?

Turn out, I can lower the volume about 75% than the Steinway D when I play the Bluthner and the other two. Since then, I still playing with the three Piano and enjoying my time until my hearing completely healed.

So, what's the difference between them in term of the sound?

1. The Steinway D has Very strong/harsh Initial sound that hurt our hearing.
2. The body (after the initial sound) seems hollow. This is because the amazing sound technology that can only great speakers/headphones can produce. If you don't have the high end one, we're screwed.
3. Since the body seems hollow, the tail also hard to capture by our ears.
4. Those hollow sound draw us to bring up the volume even louder than normal volume that our ears can handle.
5. Since the volume already very loud, our ears will getting even damaged by the Number 1. which is the initial sound that really strong/hard everytime we hit the key over and over.
6. Our ears keep on hurting - but we don't care because we still on trying to hear the body and the tail of the sound.

The next question:

Why the Bluthner and the other 2 doesn't have the same effect as Steinway D?
1. They have woody sound.
2. They have body that clear to capture with our ears even when using cheap Sony MDR-7506 headphones.
3. Because the body is clear and the initial sound is not so much different, our ears feel comfortable to play the Piano for hours. In this case, I always spend at least 2 hours daily or more.

To get those perfect sound you like, I suggest you to give good setting on your Piano controller. My setup is VPC-1 and RME Babyface Pro.

My conclusion:
I believe that good Piano sound should be heard by any studio headphones because most consumer also don't have high end set up. We definitely aim for the general population, not the 1% wealthy consumer.

I also believe that critique should be herd, because both sides get benefits. Consumer happy, they give their pocket to company.

I also believe that plus button for Vote should be errased, because it created favoritism towards some comments. It definitely created clear division that feel uncomfortable for people who wants to give comment, but scared.

I am a Conductor and I get used to received criticism. Some even trying to kill me face to face. But as a conductor, I have my own style to face them and make them listen to me in front of hundred of church congregation. I always use those criticism to bring my image even more bigger than the past....hey, look my English is so bad, but my positive attitude towards building customer satisfaction always loud and clear.

Music is Honest --->  Audiance can not be lied.

That's why I am very stubborn and stand my ground with Love and willingness to open for criticism, because audiance is honest.

When the sounds good, they will give me money. That's how live and survive in U.S as immigrants with limited English that has no music degree.

I believe Opus32 is hurting and honest. There's No way Opus32 wasting his time writing nonsenses topic for his own profit. What's for?

I think we can wait for the developers for future update and we can keep continue to support our lovely Pianoteq that keeps on getting better. Particularly Steinway D that still under my radar and search for. Yamaha also. Still waiting.

Since am not at my studio, let me know if you wanted me to send you samples so you can hear the clear differences of my playing. I'll put here by request only.

Peace.

The Steinway Ds are the worst offenders, the new updated pianos are also all worse, the new Bluthner does it pretty bad. I think they also seem to carry an off metallic sound, where the brightness wasn't executed quite right.

The old historical pianos are actually pretty good about not doing it, and turning down the hammer hardness seems to really deal with it even better. It's mainly the new pianos, and the most recently updated pianos.

@Key Fumbler, yes I definitely played too long that day and that was the key mistake. I think what I'm getting at here is that it's possible that Pianoteq is damaging hearing for times and levels that are not actually normally considered dangerous.

Stuff like blue light off of LCDs is silly because of the magnitude being much smaller than that of the sun, agreed. Imperceptible overtones that are high, but also high magnitude imply that the power output of the wave might be sufficient to cause damage with consistent, repeated exposure.

So, basically it's a question in both cases of "is the peak power of this waveform likely to cause damage over a small enough time?" In the case of LCDs, no, definitely not. Pianoteq probably should be put through a careful analysis, and at the very least, it should because if a real piano isn't doing it, that means there's room for improvement regardless.

And when I say "a real piano isn't doing it," I mean a recorded piano. In fact, real Steinway Ds are also super loud and you should definitely not play them for too long, they can actually hurt your ears just playing the damn things. It's more the case of artificial high inharmonic overtones probably having some peak power output on a high frequency, that, integrated over a long playing session, is causing the actual damage.

But, at this point for me it's quite noticeable as this painful murkiness, where it hurts my ears instantly, even at *low volume through a speaker.* IDK how else to describe it, but it's definitely also *perceptible* in my case.

@dulistan heman

I'm glad you and a couple others have mentioned it here, and that your students can also hear the difference. I think it's a "Laurel vs. Yanny" type of thing, where either you notice the problematic frequency or you don't. Both my girlfriend and I can hear them as well.

So, hopefully in 8, this issue is resolved, because despite this issue, Pianoteq still remains my favorite virtual piano. I.e. I think Keyscape sounds a bit flat and characterless, and that's the only other "big kid on the block" sort of software.

Settings that seem to affect it are sympathetic resonance, reverb, hammer noise and hammer hardness seem to have the biggest effect. Impedence also maybe does it a bit too...

After this frequency is perfected, the next thing I would actually focus on for the Modartt engineers would be mastering replicating the sympathetic resonance, perhaps expanding the parameters you can use with that to adjust it... That might actually solve some of the problem.

Key Fumbler picked it

I thought this a thing Opus32 was clinging to LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWpacxJa3eo

Do you think they haven't quality processes already.. for anything being kind of bonkers.

No.. if anything, in a court of even Judge Judy, you'd be SLAPPED back hard LOL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFmVwSRZcZE

I'm here to tell you your #1 on the first list you made above, is not new - and probably already well worked through by Modartt for the next update.. there's been a lot of talk about hammers, attack - the overtone used in the attack.. (I like to soften with a fast FET compressor.. yah, nothing I do or say is relevant right?).

Your #2 applies to every instrument/audio product and millions of products.. Anything can sound low to you, whereas in someone else's system, it can sound huge!!

That's the missing part. I'd like to believe you're stuck on the Dunning Kruger thing.. and that you are not as .. numpty.. as you think we are

But the rest - do please stop with those. It's awesome junk for some people to feel special for 'thinking they know it'.. seriously. Please not more of that.

This alone - industrial strength wrong..

YOU don't get to decide what conditions, past or present caused damage.

WE do get to judge you VERY harshly here, because YOU did post about one extreme session over 14 hours, too loud, which left your ears ringing.

THE - END SRSLY@@@::!!O(I : "?!")

LOL, really..

Stop it.. stop attempting to "Re-frame" the impossible.

That's not a quantum event, Opus.. you can't pretend.. "OH.. btw no other sounds ever did this to me".

But we showed you saying: "Ouch my ears". You could have accumulated various un-felt damage way prior to Piantoeq's mysterious overtones (whooweeeiwwoooo spooky music there).

In plain sight, you leave so much to those kinds of considerations.. far from the Wiley Coyote.. Suuuper Geeenius vibe that you want to give off

Hey.. as above for this one too. OK!

Not in a bazillion month of Teeeyoousedays.

Can we all acknowledge that I've already covered that? - every sound product in history can harm anyone's ears. But there's nothing about Pianoteq or millions of other products which would indicate danger to the public passed on by overtones, or perceptions of volume levels.

Every preset is different.. different mics, different stereo widths, you do the math, math boy Millions of differences - you learned yourself, it's endless when you want to take it all in.

That process of learning how the engine theoretically works can be cathartic as you discovered but only the amazingly modest people in Modartt can know the finest details.. but please, let's not trouble them any further with this guff please, OK Opus?

Well for some of the rest, quickly.. (I'm not hating on you - just terribly flummoxed by your ability to be both intelligent and so strangely stuck too - but I see, it's only that one item you may consider lawsuit-worthy .. just note, some care about that kind of thing, esp. in the E.U., earnest, and honest companies like Modartt have some fabulous protections from unwarranted junk lawsuits - and the kind of anti-SLAP processes will stop any scammer before they get to court.)

No - you posted your words, I posted them so you could re-read those. Your words, it seems, like particle physics might suggest, are two different things, or more, at once.

That's not my nitpicking - that's YOU noticing, because I bent the fabric of space time to repost them back to you

I don't see what you get from not admitting your 100% fault for hurting your own ears.

That's to me the only true white elephant stomping around, which you say you can't see.

BTW - we're not animals, Opus32.

You're maybe stuck in text books much, so much as to not realize what you're saying much of the time, nor to whom you say it down to, from on high.

Well no. You might apply that if falsifying other studies? You didn't do that yourself.. you just made a pretty large leap, which though interesting, is undoubtedly wrong. That's what you have to give up, to admit you harmed your own ears. There's not a time machine or quantum computational fix for that.. yet.

The comments you posted only really outline, to us, a guy with possible potential, notably excited yet unfortunately too 'into the tweaking' to stop and think "Eek, something's wrong Beavis!" until it was too late.. honestly, anyone can sympathize with that.. every kid who ever got an electric guitar and amp for one trillion examples.

Nobody sold humbuckers on the notion "These have less harmful overtones than the old coils".. it would have been howled down. Hendrix's Strat was old school coils mostly.. it's how WE opertate the machinery that still counts.

Nobody is strapping your head into those cans and forcing you to listen at any volume.. there are many and various repeated warning all over the forum (incl. from me) - so yeah, nobody should consider Pianoteq a danger unless you lose track of your levels.. it's not a Piantoeq thing to 'seem quieter than it is' - NO musical item might be correctly ascribed that to the point where it's damaging.. everything sounds different, incl. different pianos/presets, different studios.. rooms.. volume controls on all the diffferent PCs or hardware out there for nearly a century still in use.. or all the new digial stuff.

What you might not like is your DAC.. run that through the logic machine a bit.. there will be varying results (as to overtones, how they sound) if a DAC is doing a poor job of decoding the digital to the analog signal.. Just a few bucks can make a large difference to how good a lot of things can sound on any system. That's not to mention all the great and still relevant hardware DAC setups, which may cost many thousands per box... they may be big, heavy and have lots of capacitors that a 'digital chip' might not really emulate well.. they may smooth things quite a lot (like a good studio 'desk' or 'console' or other equipment in any good production chain.

Also consider, what are you doing?

A: I want a real sounding piano in my room.

B: I want a fine album piano sound.

Understanding your goal helps a lot in discussing what things might help anyone's sound along best.

Someone wanting the piano in room experience, might go beyond 2 speakers, and try all kinds of nice things - and would do well to aim at quality hardware in the mix.

Someone wanting to make nice 'studio-like' album quality piano recordings.. well, like tweaking Pianoteq, it's endless.. but a good DAW, a good set of plugins in the DAW (many now come inexpensively with good stock plugins).. but all that is taste, garnered from experiences you give yourself, by trying these things out, reading up, watching some Yoochoobs.. etc. Just be aware of smoke and mirror nonsense entertainers.. and stick with good info providers, you'll easily with time, discover the best tools to beging that journey with. Beyond learnings early on (everyone must pass through those gates if serious), you develop your own methods (hopefully based on sound principles first).. and then later on, you may get awards, and lots of downloads... excellent luck to those who attempt it.. it's worth it.. within safe listening bounds!! ;0)

I don't really believe there's reasonable value in the rest of this stuff about 'maybe the overtones are.." Just.. nope.. I just wish you'd take responsibility for what YOU did Opus32, and leave off with the impossible fabrications around something different and special about Pianoteq where hearing loss is of concern.

Like pointed out, everyone's audio setup will sound different.. nobody making any audio software can do more than produce products suited to a kind of objective/subjective balanced for some kind of grand average, which moves as tech moves - the analog to digital decades was full of horribly un-levelled things.. it's immensely improved in this current epoch.. and I do know first hand, that Pianoteq is improving the very things, like attack, hammer overtones, tail overtones all the time.

The next update will probably blow a lot of minds.. and ahem, not eardrums!

Honestly - all that is to hopefully help you out of the bunny pit and into the fresh meadows O.

Best to you.

P.S. to everyone posting - massively appreciate your efforts to help Opus32 and to work out what's on the plate here.

@Stig - your advice is excellent, and you output more music than anyone I've known, mostly with Pianoteq.. Opus32 and anyone new to Pianoteq would do well to read your post!

@Keys - yes, it's possible O is just moving through understandable upset.. and I hope he gets beyond it.. part of that will be like what Defenz0r mentioned 'man up' to get on with the road ahead, instead of focussing on shadows irrelevant to all, and mostly to himself. You defaulted first to helping Opus32 - and that's golden, thank you - such a super good guy you are.

@Defenz0r - the first to say some good words to Opus32 - and I hope he understands that we all say these things to help, as you did. Fantastic!

@Robert - so sorry the threads like this cause upset to you and likely others. In the rinse though, I believe reality is separated from fiction, only through maintaining a line on the realities.. I understand what a sensitive and expressive and cool guy you are - and hope you don't mistake what's been a process to sort through Opus32's issues, without being fooled into just saying "yes, there must be something to this".. like I pointed to, the whole audio industry is full of products, some we like or dislike - for professional use cases Pianoteq is exceptional fwiw.. but indeed, some like yourself can assuredly dislike some of the pianos' sounds.. that's not abnormal for any VSTI.. sadly it's often just down to equipment, room, PC power, DAC, other audio components.. there's no exact perfect setup for every user.. we all make do. I really dislike a lot of the piano software which others may love outside of here.. but I love realism provided by Pianoteq and it's always improving things like the overtones etc.. and like I mentioned above, I'm very confident the engine is going to sound better with a new update as I'm certain overtone development, incl. hammers/attack has been on the cards a long while. Please, do stick around. You know, my account is just here now for helping new users and defending sometimes. The rest of my time is often spent listening to the music you and Stig, Gaston and all others in the music sub are posting.. I go from quiet and not posting much there, to sometimes posting a mega-wall to defend Pianoteq here.. you know that of me I'm sure. Sorry for that esp. in relation to your feelings which I feel are the exact feelings on this forum, which I wish to guard against ideas which I do regard important to defend us all from. Bad barking dog, I may be sometimes!!

@Opus32 - oh.. no.. nothing else.. just.. er.. see above! Cheers

Sincerely.

Boom.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8N72t7aScY

@Nathan: can you explain your EQ reduction in a little more detail? It's something I like to do, but I'm never quite sure where to start the roll-off to get that slight darkening without wrecking the tone of the piano.

I agree with MeDorian: avoid using headphones if possible. I much prefer to use speakers at a low level. However, there are times when I need to use headphones, even though I dislike wearing them. Closed-back models I find very uncomfortable, and these days I never use them. AKG K240 (semi-open, 240g) are at the limit of my tolerance threshold, and I can only stand wearing them for about 20 minutes at a time. So when I do use headphones, I'm forced to take regular breaks!

Good to hear this dazric, I have for over two years, banned myself from using headphones when playing, I do though have the odd YouTube evening with headphones and mobile phone.

Regarding speakers, I have the least bass I can get away with (and subtle treble reduction if required), and the least volume, this reduces room noise. And placement, I have the speakers on my keyboard, they are small speakers so no bass EQ reduction required, and because I am near to them, the bass is good and gives some vibration to the actual keyboard. I hope to do some demonstration vids in the future on speaker placement.

Again, sorry if going off topic here.

Nick

Edit: Some studio monitors have EQ management, although the flat position might work well in a perfect room size and player position, the sound might be far from flat, reducing the EQ and possibly reducing volume might improve on the sound, and have less room sound.

Thank you Key Fumbler for your comment, and your solid argument that explain your position.

I just want to add, that loudspeakers can totally mess up our hearing too. At least when in front of them for a great length of time with too much volume. So be sure to keep volume down in order to prevent tinnitus becoming worse. Actually, the same rules as I mentioned for headphones. For loudspeakers maybe 60dB….People get likewise tinnitus from speakers, some say it is because of the metal tweeter…..Well, we all are so different. In another forum I noticed the same discussion as here, but about loudspeakers. Could not use the speakers, gave tinnitus.
Best wishes,

Stig

Pianoteqenthusiast, Organteqenthusiast, Harpteqenthusiast, Harpsichordteqenthusiast, experimenter and Grafteqenthusiast

I mean, I've actually literally given a public, scientific talk...

Please, consider being more considerate just because someone disagrees with you.

For all of whatever you wrote... several others have chimed in also recognizing the same experience. That is a trend, something observable. Of course, it's not yet tested at a scientific standard (rather, it needs to be tested to an engineering safety standard, as is the applicable process here, also an area I've worked in). It's now a hypothesis for a few observable points, and given the sample size of people chiming in, there seems to be a strong trend of people who at least report the sensation of uncomfortable overtones.

Moreover, there is also a trend in ameliorating the problem in a way that is in line with the hypothesis I put forward - that is, removing high portions of the spectrum. Inharmonic, high pitched clusters of tones don't really sound like anything in particular. Now, the next part is testing that hypothesis with a spectrum analyzer.

Worst sound in the world:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cVlTeIATBs

That, nor other genuinely worse sounds won't harm hearing, unless you play it too loud and for too long.

Until there's a "user tool" built into everyday appliances or studio gear, which can "adjust" for dangerous overtones.. then it's not a thing. And NO company, or software maker should have to defend against some weird notion of a pending lawsuit being possible.

If a user doesn't have a tool for such a thing, it will not exist in the entire world of audio (production/broadcast/delivery).

If there were, and Pianoteq were mandated to supply such a tool, and didn't, then the overriding and annoying assertion here in the thread may have merit. But it doesn't.

Those with tinnitus have a duty beyond what software they use, to not push volume or push ones self to endure long sessions - no matter the flush of thrilling achievement at the end of that tantalising rainbow.. the pot of gold can end up as expected, non-existent or worse, result in further self inflicted damage.. but that's nothing to do with Pianoteq's overtones.

EQ..

The best user controls for adjusting for discomfort (esp. if your ears can't enjoy certain frequencies) are the EQ tools (if you don't already have your own EQ which you use).

Roll off a little of the high frequencies, and you can even 'notch' out some regions.. I've been explaining this stuff for IDK 8 years on and off here.

And learning a little about how to use the 2 different EQ tools in Pianoteq can indeed be actually worth it. (esp. compared to fear mongering and pretending to 'the just cause fighter').

Complexity in sound can irritate damaged auditory systems in vastly different ways - and in normal audio situations, there are vastly different reasons for any given set of settings which may help someone use more comfortably any audio product. The usual top level tool, is EQ. It's not mystical stuff.

Any signal comes to your ears through the same speakers as any other signal. There's not an extra special device built in which can send to your ears, some 'extra' danger - other than too much volume, and you choose to expose yourself to loudness for any length of time you choose.

For those with no hearing damage, and using great equipment, Pianoteq is excellent.

I just point out, those with hearing issues are more likely 'aggravated' by complexity in the signal.. there's detail and lots of it.

That however, is NOT a danger in a good audio product.

Here's what I propose:

Think of the EQ3 tool (in the Effects section) as a hearing helper. We often just think of EQ for shaping for some degree of improvement in the sound - but think what it can do for you, if your hearing condition is noticeable whilst hearing the whole big spectrum..

In EQ3, there are 3 dots. Think this way.. Left is Bass. Right is Treble. Middle is pliable in any range.

Drag left dot all the way left and down until bass is not so big for you.

Drag right dot all the way right and down until treble is not too bright for you.

With the middle dot, lift, lower, drag it all around. Change the "Q factor" (right-click the dot) and see, you can make a "notch" or a big wide "wave". This allows you to zoom down to a very narrow range, and just remove/lower or lift any very specific frequency range. The wider you go, the more frequencies you lift or lower.

With a very narrow Q set, drag the dot up, and left then right as long as you like, to identify 'bad' sounding frequencies. Everyone may like or dislike these.. mostly in 'normal' audio production, there are frequencies removed or attenuated.. in Pianoteq I'm sure some of that is done under the hood, before it gets through the EQ.. but, mostly it's a very full (like a real piano) spectrum..

You can remove any frequencies you like, and you can have 3 'EQ3' FX in a row, to get super specific about that.

2 more easy things to make Pianoteq less full force if your ears are sensitive for any reason..

Soften hammers (like you're now not playing on a too bright piano).

and/or

Take out some overtones.. or turn up the 1st so there is not so much diffusion.

(OP mentioned doing the opposite, and I can say, it's aesthetic - and it's telling me OP has hearing damage, to know he preferred to lower the 1st harmonic.. please consider that OP.. another thing YOU chose to do, which IMO would only increase inharmonicities and make a more complex sound.. and whilst not dangerous by itself, might more likely be aggravating to any ears IF played too loud, for too long.)

Of course, there's a world of more more more things and tools, like a DAW with other plugins and etc. - and that's really just something we may or may not want to bother with.

Some just want to play piano. Understandably - and the defaults now are far better than many of us could 'tweak' for ourselves. I genuinly have come to that decision, gladly.. I posted sometime back that that time had really arrived. Now some updates later, and it's way better - and the next update, I'm confident, has surely improved all this overtone/attack as well.

SO, if fussy fussy, like me and obv. many here.. you can learn some super easy things with EQ.. and most of the fear of 'damage' can be largely mitigated.

Every consumer electronic playback device for maybe 70 years or more have come with tone controls.

Now, in the digital age, we're able to do more than ever possible before, even with the tools inside Pianoteq (and these ARE a lot better than many may believe).

That's hopefully useful to some who want to genuinely cut through the noise so to speak.

I know a lot of readers don't like lots of words, but give some of that a try, before jumping on an A/B mystery which could just make you focus more on your tinnitus.. to me, the best way to deal with tinnitus (at lest a mild and manageable kind) is to get to a point where you are NOT focussing on it. You know it's there, mitigate for it, but train yourself NOT to think on it, or listen for it.. anything but focus on it.

If you worry about hearing loss, no matter the product, turn it down. Look at your levels (knobs or displays).. keep them below where you know YOU choose to have them, and of course, you may have to live with some displeasure, even for the music/sounds you may love the most.. THAT sucks..

but it's NOT Pianoteq's fault. Really.. wish everyone could enjoy their music, pianos etc. without falling into misinformation and definitely do not want to see anyone trying to test the bounds of their hearing, just to prove something or 'enjoy it more'.

Take good care, sincerely.

New video on Pianoteq from a piano tuner;
https://youtu.be/ULdxwZUXoBY

What a good video @Keys, thanks. I saw one of his a while back I think.. an especially good solid look at a lot of things about Pianoteq.

Great point @MeDorian! Probably would guess something like 90% of time is spent using speakers rather than earphones. You do certainly benefit from speakers as a default and gain a lot of perspective about the sound by some cross referencing on earphones. Every project or piece seems to demand a different course of action, but speakers tend to dominate.

Also, with speakers, low volume listening can possibly be easier to train for. Headphones may in some cases be the candy which makes people keep turning up more and more as they seem to me to cause earlier fatigue and that can lead to a noticeable loss of good perception overall. Can sound great and it's satisfying to wrap them around your ears at a nice volume, but they can lead to some poor decisions about EQ/mix etc.

If people are locked in and love their earphones, there are various plugins which I like to use occasionally, which can help with spatial issues - breathing 'room' and some natural speaker-like crossover of the left & right back into the signal. I do find some of these excellent for extending earphone use with less fatigue, and it's more like sitting at a mixing desk with speakers.

I've used many and for the money, I'd probably just go with a Waves plugin from their "NX" collection. That's their underlying consumer headphone mixing platform. The first in that line was NX Virtual Mix Room and following that they began measuring actual real world quality studios to overlay into it. Really quite good IMHO - don't have one particular preference, they each give a different environment - but each very usable.

https://www.waves.com/plugins/headphone...:number=20

Actually they run lots of specials (best way to buy - not usually too long to wait between sales) - seems they're at their lowest price each ($29.99) at the moment.

The choices include Abbey Road Studio 3 (the first to be included), Ocean Way Nashville, CLA (the studio of an engineer doing business with them.. an interesting space to enjoy) and the recent one is Germano Studios New York (solid.. and really I like it for electronica).

I had NX for some time and found it helpful when stuck on headphones, but when Abbey Road Studio 3 came along, it helped make headphones, sort of more interesting again. Anything which gives a bump in inspiration of course being up my street. And it was engaging to imagine 'OK this would probably sound somewhat like this.. if really there in that space'.

Each gives different choices of in-studio speaker types (from small to largest avail.) and iirc each, or most of them allow for raising or lowering the studio room's ambient influence, so you could dial back to just spatial distance from 'source signal' without too much room.. and being for headphones, you can adjust for your measured head size & ears with an added bonus you might like, which is a head-tracking system which can be as simple as using a cam to alter sound as you move and turn your head, or get a device to rig onto your headphones themselves to tell the software where you're facing.. quite a natural seeming experience. Even if you don't have active tracking turned on, you can with the mouse swivel around in your virtual chair to experience the 2 speaker emulated sound quite realistically as if you're in a space. NOT as good as the real world thing.. but if using headphones, I find this to make a great difference to fatigue issues, and just the sense that I'm not trapped and a strapped in hostage to the cans

Main thing to note I guess beyond 'will it be a nice thing for me', is that they are for listening and mixing and you won't likely wish to keep those plugins engaged when outputting a final mix.. they're just for your own benefit while monitoring, not designed for outputting final stage mixes - some headscratching may be involved but in essence, they help you hear what a mixer at a desk in those places roughly hear, and when you get you EQ and mix levels and processors etc. sounding very good to you... then turn off or remove the plugins, then do your master or mixdown to output.. and I do find if a lot of the mix is handled on headphones, the results are actually quicker and better, 90% of the time. But, still speakers reign.

Hope this might help someone struggling with headphones, worrying about getting the sound better or even wanting a 'nicer/smoother' sound to play piano with, you may find one or more of those helpful. They are not so much like 'putting your piano in a real room', as they are about 'how your piano recording could sound on 2 nice speakers in a quality studio'. Worth it for anyone wanting more from headphones, and possibly providing a safer way to hear your music without feeling like turning it up up up, and saving on ear fatigue which can mask your ability to discern when your ears are suffering.

@theinvisibleman - I have seen that observation and certainly it's not a soft sound. But I would say this first generation of piano updates (using the recent string update) are likely to be much more integrated with that by the next update. Nobody seems to trust EQ though - do you find you'd like a kind of "i" & "ii" versions for the main defaults? I'd like to fly that idea - if so feel free to post a new thread - like a feature request. Maybe you'd find support. We could use the EQ tools to lower a little trebles, or lower the tone of the reverbs and other things.. but maybe users might like a "Concert I" and "Concert ii", one normal/brightish the other maybe softened under the hood (I believe the NY Steinway modelled did have a bright character - maybe Steinway selected for that - I couldn't say for sure).

I'll just upload my Steinway D FXP file to the FXP Corner. This will likely be too dark a tone for many people, but it's easy to pull the top EQ band up or down to taste (and right/left of course). I've also softened the hammers a bit too; adjusting that makes a significant difference as well. When I'm practicing for long periods of time, I'll pull that top EQ band down even further still.

EDIT: I meant to say that I'm adjusting the EQ in "effects" not the main "equalizer."

Really nice NathanShirley. Very even tone throughout. I never play the big grands, earlier today, due to this thread I tried the Steinways, I liked them, yours is great, subtle and dark.

I don't feel qualified in many ways though playing this instrument, anyway I went through some species counterpoint, normally I play Werckmeister III, no tuning issues in ET here....very good work.

Nick

Yes, intentionally bright but in a different way. Warmer,  softer yet a little bright, sacrificing some dynamic attack for sweetness.
It's got intentional lift around 4khz if I recall correctly. Then the treble is steeply rolled off above that.
It sounds like a few old piano recordings. It's not super clean and isn't as dynamic as the original preset but is substantially warmer. Different ears, different loudspeakers and different room acoustics. Some might find it underwhelming or worse than factory presets, who knows.

If pianoteq Steinway d is harsh, wait till you hear Roland’s pure acoustic modeled pianos.

I messed with many settings like eq, string hardness, resonances, velocity curve, and the harsh frequencies are always in front of the piano sounds. On a closed Shure headphone.

The only thing that worked was changing my headphones to the Sennheiser HD650, or Drop’s cheaper HD6xx. On these headphones the harsh overtones, resonances, noises sit behind the main piano sound, much more natural sounding.

You can do an easy test. Raise the volume of pedal release whoosh. On the HD650 even >15db it does not overpower the piano sound. My other headphones were a wall of noise, particularly the Shure.

YMMV.

Ah! I knew the poet would recognize himself

Thanks Nathan, in this particular case I can't take credit. Modartt do that themselves on some of the factory presets.

You can of course move them about in the FX slots too, changing the order. Pre and post another effect, or even have three. This in addition to the main EQ outside the FX section. The EQ that directly changes the model instead.

As a feature request to Modartt it would be nice if in the next version you could click and add more effects slots instead of having to pick and choose for those three windows only.