Topic by dv

  • Avatar
  • dv
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 01-11-2021
  • Posts: 346

Topic: Feature request

Problem: the DAC + amplifier + speaker chain does not have a linear response, so the sound going out of the speakers is often very "filtered" by the chain and does not sound as intended. In my opinion this is at least part of the reason why some people (including myself, in some circumstances) do not like the pianoteq's sound.

The good news is, pianoteq comes with nice EQ3 filters. It would be better if they were multiband, rather than just 3 bands, but one can chain up to 3 of them together (assuming one does not want to use other effects) and "solve" the problem, assuming one knows what the problem is.

How to know what the problem is? Well, let the computer create a frequency sweep, or white noise, and send it through the same DAC + amplifier + speaker chain, then use a spectrum analizer (e.g. in a smartphone, or even in the same computer which runs pianoteq), ideally with a calibrated microphone such as https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00ADR2B84/

However this has two big drawbacks:

1) the frequency sweep, or white noise, is not generated inside pianoteq itself, so the separate app might be using a different driver for the DAC, so the source is not really certain
2) even assuming the previous problem is small enough to be negligible or even absent, one needs to guess the EQ values to utilize and can not verify if they are appropriate

Both of them could be very easily solved with just a few lines of codes inside pianoteq: a "calibrate DAC+amplifier+speaker chain" button which simply generates the frequency sweep, or white noise.

Bonus points if that is associated with the opportunity to hook said calibrated microphone (or another one of pianoteq's developers choice) and instead of "bothering" the user with the spectrum analysis it automatically generates the appropriate EQ filter and applies it. Super-bonus-points if such EQ filter is multiband and separate from the 3 already possible ones which would remain in place.

Of course it would still remain the possibility that the microphone amplifier and ADC in the computer is not linear enough, and that might need to also be calibrated, but I see that as more complicated and small enough to be ignored (yet, if you want to tackle it, that would be terrific).

I think this would be a fantastic improvement for everybody and especially for those who are currently NOT pianoteq's customers, potentially increasing the customer base dramatically, by making its sound even better

Last edited by dv (17-03-2022 21:23)
Where do I find a list of all posts I upvoted? :(

Reply by Yangyang

  • Avatar
  • Yangyang
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 22-07-2017
  • Posts: 29

Re: Feature request

I am a piano student and I am not a sound engineer. I give you my experience and point of view.

The goal of Pianoteq is to copy a real piano. Each real instruments have a timbre, a frequency and a volume of sound. We use mainly pianoteq, a DAC, a sound equalizer (hardware for me), an amplifier, two speakers and a room. Pianoteq gives the timbre the copy of the real instruments, the equalizer equalizes the sound to match with all the hardware (mainly the speakers) and the room too, the amplifier gives the quantity of sound, the volume. We needs to set the equalizer and the volume of the amplifier. For the graphics equalizer we can use a signal generator and a proper microphone to match the sound color of the speakers and the room too, and for the volume, I do not know a technical solution. I imagine that maybe there is some data about the quantity of decibel in some situation from the real instruments. The music composition teacher helped me and the solution is to play some real grand pianos, memorize the feeling, and try to do the setting the best we can. For me it was not to difficult, we have different grand piano in the conservatory and I can easily try expansive instruments in the shops. If you do the good setting for a piano, the piano you know the more for example, all the other instruments will work fine with it. Even with a high-end amplifier and speakers, if the settings are bad, Pianoteq is ruined and sound very bad. I tried a lot of different amplifiers and speakers, and I think the DAC give a little difference of sound, the amplifiers, a middle, and the speaker and the rooms, a huge.

Reply by dv

  • Avatar
  • dv
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 01-11-2021
  • Posts: 346

Re: Feature request

Yangyang wrote:

I am a piano student and I am not a sound engineer.

Me too. That's exactly why:

1) I like Pianoteq instead of all the other digital instruments, DAW and "crap" which are liked by people on other forums, but require a Ph.D. in sound engineering to be used

2) I want this feature to have Pianoteq sound very good with minimal effort

Yangyang wrote:

Even with a high-end amplifier and speakers, if the settings are bad, Pianoteq is ruined and sound very bad.

EXACTLY! That is my experience as well. I spend inordinate amount of time trying to make it sound good, often with very poor results, probably because I am not a sound engineer. I can trust that the default settings provided by Modartt are best, so perhaps I should not change them. But even then sometimes I'm disappointed by the results. Why? Well, I don't know but two things come to mind: velocity curve and equalization. Pianoteq provides some help for the former. Not a panacea, but it helps. Pianoteq provides the EQ3 setting for the latter, but we are left in the dark regarding how to use it. Just mess around with it and pray it will sound good? Time consuming and disappointing results, in my experience. Hence my feature request, which can be either implemented in basic form with very little effort on their side (and help only the geek or the ones willing to spend time), or which can be implemented in complete form with modest effort on their side and be tremendously helpful to everybody.

Where do I find a list of all posts I upvoted? :(

Reply by Irmin

  • Avatar
  • Irmin
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Second star to the right
  • Registered: 20-04-2012
  • Posts: 98

Re: Feature request

I suppose it is each to their own. I think you are hugely over complicating things.

I've got pianoteq 7

Macbook air --> scarlett 2i2 --> Sennhesier 598 or KRK G8 monitors
Macbook air --> internal interface --> Sennhesier 598 or Sony 1000-XM3's (power off) (power on == too much bass)
Same chain but from PC

All sound good, Sennhesier 598's best, then the monitors, then the sony's. They all sound similar, none sound bad. the Sennheiser's just crisper clearer and a better frequency response

There is no amount of EQ that will transform the already good sound to something magically better

Reply by dazric

  • Avatar
  • dazric
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 16-09-2016
  • Posts: 1,015

Re: Feature request

dv wrote:
Yangyang wrote:

I am a piano student and I am not a sound engineer.

Me too. That's exactly why:

1) I like Pianoteq instead of all the other digital instruments, DAW and "crap" which are liked by people on other forums, but require a Ph.D. in sound engineering to be used

2) I want this feature to have Pianoteq sound very good with minimal effort

Yangyang wrote:

Even with a high-end amplifier and speakers, if the settings are bad, Pianoteq is ruined and sound very bad.

EXACTLY! That is my experience as well. I spend inordinate amount of time trying to make it sound good, often with very poor results, probably because I am not a sound engineer. I can trust that the default settings provided by Modartt are best, so perhaps I should not change them. But even then sometimes I'm disappointed by the results. Why? Well, I don't know but two things come to mind: velocity curve and equalization. Pianoteq provides some help for the former. Not a panacea, but it helps. Pianoteq provides the EQ3 setting for the latter, but we are left in the dark regarding how to use it. Just mess around with it and pray it will sound good? Time consuming and disappointing results, in my experience. Hence my feature request, which can be either implemented in basic form with very little effort on their side (and help only the geek or the ones willing to spend time), or which can be implemented in complete form with modest effort on their side and be tremendously helpful to everybody.

Yeah, I can relate to a lot of this. It's great that Pianoteq has so many parameters to tweak, and I do enjoy experimenting with them, but I often end up just making minimal adjustments or reverting to defaults because I don't want to mess things up. And I've owned and enjoyed Pianoteq since version 5. Even Phil Best has admitted, in one of his videos, that he doesn't tweak Pianoteq very much because he doesn't want to mess everything up.
Here's my idea: why not have a 'simple mode', like some VST plugins do? For all users there could be some sort of graphic EQ for the essential frequency bands (I wonder how many users find the Equalizer and EQ3 controls fiddly, intimidating and/or just plain bewildering?). Then, for Standard and Pro users, there could be a more sophisticated piano tone control slider which could adjust a balanced blend of hammer hardness and other parameters to brighten or darken the overall piano tone, according to taste and listening environment. I'm sure that a 'simple mode' would help to widen Pianoteq's appeal: there must be a lot of people out there who'd like to be able to make some quick adjustments to the piano tone and then just play.

Reply by dv

  • Avatar
  • dv
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 01-11-2021
  • Posts: 346

Re: Feature request

Irmin wrote:

I think you are hugely over complicating things.

All sound good, Sennhesier 598's best, then the monitors, then the sony's. They all sound similar, none sound bad. the Sennheiser's just crisper clearer and a better frequency response

There is no amount of EQ that will transform the already good sound to something magically better

While I agree with your conclusion, with all due respect I think your "hugely complicating things" is mildly insulting. First of all, I want something extremely simple, not complicated. Second, and most importantly, if all the settings sound good for you, well, that's good for you. For many others (including myself), it doesn't, and you should not dismiss other people problems or needs.

dazric wrote:

Yeah, I can relate to a lot of this. It's great that Pianoteq has so many parameters to tweak, and I do enjoy experimenting with them, but I often end up just making minimal adjustments or reverting to defaults because I don't want to mess things up. And I've owned and enjoyed Pianoteq since version 5. Even Phil Best has admitted, in one of his videos, that he doesn't tweak Pianoteq very much because he doesn't want to mess everything up.
Here's my idea: why not have a 'simple mode', like some VST plugins do?

If I understand correctly your suggestion, I think that part we already have: it's called the "Stage" version which I believe you can use even if you purchased the "Standard" (or you can simply ignore the upper part of the GUI interface)

dazric wrote:

For all users there could be some sort of graphic EQ for the essential frequency bands (I wonder how many users find the Equalizer and EQ3 controls fiddly, intimidating and/or just plain bewildering?). Then, for Standard and Pro users, there could be a more sophisticated piano tone control slider which could adjust a balanced blend of hammer hardness and other parameters to brighten or darken the overall piano tone, according to taste and listening environment. I'm sure that a 'simple mode' would help to widen Pianoteq's appeal: there must be a lot of people out there who'd like to be able to make some quick adjustments to the piano tone and then just play.

That's very close to my request: something to make the EQ settings complete and easy-peasy! In a perfect world, such EQ setting would happen automatically, with the user not even seeing (or needing to know) anything regarding bands and dB: pianoteq would "listen" to the calibrated microphone and automatically adjust the EQ levels to have the best settings you can achieve with the hardware (DAC+ampli+speakers) you own. That would be fantastic. Short of that, a white noise generator and a graphic EQ to manually adjust the spectrum: very easy to implement (I am a software engineer and I know that) and not too difficult to use.

Where do I find a list of all posts I upvoted? :(

Reply by dazric

  • Avatar
  • dazric
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 16-09-2016
  • Posts: 1,015

Re: Feature request

Yes indeed, Stage is sort of like 'simple mode' - but I think that Stage users would still appreciate a simpler way to EQ.
So OK, great, we've planted a seed... let's see if it will germinate!

Reply by Yangyang

  • Avatar
  • Yangyang
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 22-07-2017
  • Posts: 29

Re: Feature request

When I said I am not a sound engineer, my meaning is I may write wrong information, and I cannot guarantee it is perfectly right. I only share my own case and experience. I am also not speaking about Pianoteq features and setting. It is the same situation if I listen a piano solo record from a CD for example. I am speaking about the setting, in my case, of two hardwares, a sound equalizer and an amplifier. The setting of the hardware equalizer is to match the sound color of the speaker and the room inside a linear way. The setting of the amplifier is to match the quantity of sound, the volume, with a real piano. To set the equalizer and the amplifier, a way is to use a special equipment, linear microphone and sound generator, but if we cannot borrow or buy it, we can only use our feeling and experience, but that need to have experiences with different real piano in different situations.

If I use a linear HI-FI amplifier and speaker, the sound will be nice, but very aleatory to the volume and the frequencies because of the room size and materials. I need to turn the volume button more or less to have the same quantity of sound that the real instrument would have here, and set the equalizer to match the room. In my case, the room I put Pianoteq is five merters by eight meters with two windows. The amplifier is 250 W. The keyboard is Kawai CA28. I added two carpets and curtains, a few wood furniture. I think the result is good, I can practice with a good touching and memorize it and after practice only a few weeks on a real grand piano before the examination day. I bought Pianoteq for the very nice touching.

Reply by BarbaraRB

  • Avatar
  • BarbaraRB
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 06-03-2022
  • Posts: 290

Re: Feature request

dazric wrote:
dv wrote:
Yangyang wrote:

I am a piano student and I am not a sound engineer.

Me too. That's exactly why:

1) I like Pianoteq instead of all the other digital instruments, DAW and "crap" which are liked by people on other forums, but require a Ph.D. in sound engineering to be used

2) I want this feature to have Pianoteq sound very good with minimal effort

Yangyang wrote:

Even with a high-end amplifier and speakers, if the settings are bad, Pianoteq is ruined and sound very bad.

EXACTLY! That is my experience as well. I spend inordinate amount of time trying to make it sound good, often with very poor results, probably because I am not a sound engineer. I can trust that the default settings provided by Modartt are best, so perhaps I should not change them. But even then sometimes I'm disappointed by the results. Why? Well, I don't know but two things come to mind: velocity curve and equalization. Pianoteq provides some help for the former. Not a panacea, but it helps. Pianoteq provides the EQ3 setting for the latter, but we are left in the dark regarding how to use it. Just mess around with it and pray it will sound good? Time consuming and disappointing results, in my experience. Hence my feature request, which can be either implemented in basic form with very little effort on their side (and help only the geek or the ones willing to spend time), or which can be implemented in complete form with modest effort on their side and be tremendously helpful to everybody.

Yeah, I can relate to a lot of this. It's great that Pianoteq has so many parameters to tweak, and I do enjoy experimenting with them, but I often end up just making minimal adjustments or reverting to defaults because I don't want to mess things up. And I've owned and enjoyed Pianoteq since version 5. Even Phil Best has admitted, in one of his videos, that he doesn't tweak Pianoteq very much because he doesn't want to mess everything up.
Here's my idea: why not have a 'simple mode', like some VST plugins do? For all users there could be some sort of graphic EQ for the essential frequency bands (I wonder how many users find the Equalizer and EQ3 controls fiddly, intimidating and/or just plain bewildering?). Then, for Standard and Pro users, there could be a more sophisticated piano tone control slider which could adjust a balanced blend of hammer hardness and other parameters to brighten or darken the overall piano tone, according to taste and listening environment. I'm sure that a 'simple mode' would help to widen Pianoteq's appeal: there must be a lot of people out there who'd like to be able to make some quick adjustments to the piano tone and then just play.

I'm brand new with Pianoteq, but I want to stay with the existing pre-sets to the degree I can, which I think will be totally.  The only change I've made so far is to silence the instrument noise/pedal noise which is included to add authenticity, but which bothers me.  I've been told that setting the virtual microphones in different places really affects the sound, but I wouldn't have any idea where to place them.  There is a tutorial for that, as well as other tutorials, and I'll watch them at some point.  But because I'm only interested in learning to play the piano and enjoying the beautiful Pianoteq instruments, I'm not going to get involved with any customizing.

Reply by dazric

  • Avatar
  • dazric
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 16-09-2016
  • Posts: 1,015

Re: Feature request

Well, I would say that it's well worth experimenting with the mics, because they do indeed make quite a difference to the sound. Not necessarily trying your own placements - that's a really complex rabbit hole, as I've discovered! But there are some relatively easy ways to exploit the potential of the mics without tying yourself in knots. Granted, you may not want to do these things very often, but they're certainly worth a try.
One way is to select a preset with just 2 mics and then try turning on and off the 'secret' mics that Modartt have left lying around. These can add a subtle bit of ambience to the sound. Another way is to use the parameter freeze feature to borrow the mic settings from one preset and apply them to another. Sometimes this works well and sometimes it doesn't, and occasionally you get a nice surprise . Yet another option is to change the type of mics being used. Modartt has modelled some very expensive mics (Google them if you're curious), and they can change the sound in subtle ways. If nothing else, it's instructive to just observe where the mics have been placed and how this affect the sound.

Last edited by dazric (21-03-2022 19:14)