Topic: bad ringing on the pianos since the last few updates
terrible ringing in the bass range , D, E partially bad.
NY Steinway
- dcitron
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Re: bad ringing on the pianos since the last few updates
Yeah, I've commented on this before, too, and there's another thread that mentions it as well: https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=9061
I wonder if it's related to where the plate struts are on the real piano. I agree that the metallic components of the sound down in the lower range on many of the pianos (esp the NY D) have a distracting, artificial component to them, and I can't quite put my finger on what the exact issue is.
I've noticed it on:
NY Steinway D, YC5: E2 (esp D2) on down
Steinway B: notes B1 through E2
The real pianos definitely ring down there as well (it's the copper-wound strings, according to Niclas's helpful reply), but there's a sorta swirling, flanging aspect to the ringing in Pianoteq that I find distracting under certain conditions. But I'm getting used to it
- jcitron
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Re: bad ringing on the pianos since the last few updates
I've noticed the same as well. This has affected some of my presets I created. I agree it could be some additional modeling of the metal parts of the pianos, but perhaps there's a bit too much of a good thing making some of the pianos a bit harsh.
- Philippe Guillaume
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Re: bad ringing on the pianos since the last few updates
dcitron wrote:
The real pianos definitely ring down there as well (it's the copper-wound strings, according to Niclas's helpful reply)
Exactly. On Steinway D, the highest copper-wound string is E1 (MIDI # 40). It is also the highest note of the bass frame section (before the cross-over), tied to the bass bridge. From F1 upwards, strings are of pure steel and belong to the middle frame section, tied to the main part of the bridge. Sound engineering is certainly debatable, and it is not rare to partially filter out some of the strong longitudinal modes characteristic of the bass notes. How much should be filtered out is a matter of taste, and it is not easy to spot the average taste. Note that these modes are mostly audible at fff, so you can easily tame them down by either:
- select the appropriate preset,
- lower the velocity curve,
- reduce the hammer hardness at forte level (third slider in the Voicing section),
- gently EQ down frequencies above 3 kHz,
- make an even more precise EQing via the spectrum Note Edit.
Personally I don't change them when I play, I like the brilliance and power they deliver to the music, as can be heard for example on page https://www.modartt.com/modeld where most demos use the default settings.
- jcitron
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Re: bad ringing on the pianos since the last few updates
In other words, Modartt has modeled the crossover point on the piano scale?
On real pianos, this is more noticeable than others and piano tuners will voice the notes around that part of the piano to reduce the bright contrast on the string break in the scale. On my own Vogel 177 T, for example it's noticeable but not as much as it is on the Steinway grands.
- dcitron
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Re: bad ringing on the pianos since the last few updates
There's still something unnatural about the exact sound of the ringing -- it seems to have a "pee-oww" sound to it that, I think, is what is making it seem odd. I hope that makes sense (and thank you for your reply, Philippe).
- dazric
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Re: bad ringing on the pianos since the last few updates
Philippe Guillaume wrote:
dcitron wrote:The real pianos definitely ring down there as well (it's the copper-wound strings, according to Niclas's helpful reply)
Exactly. On Steinway D, the highest copper-wound string is E1 (MIDI # 40). It is also the highest note of the bass frame section (before the cross-over), tied to the bass bridge. From F1 upwards, strings are of pure steel and belong to the middle frame section, tied to the main part of the bridge. Sound engineering is certainly debatable, and it is not rare to partially filter out some of the strong longitudinal modes characteristic of the bass notes. How much should be filtered out is a matter of taste, and it is not easy to spot the average taste. Note that these modes are mostly audible at fff, so you can easily tame them down by either:
- select the appropriate preset,
- lower the velocity curve,
- reduce the hammer hardness at forte level (third slider in the Voicing section),
- gently EQ down frequencies above 3 kHz,
- make an even more precise EQing via the spectrum Note Edit.
Personally I don't change them when I play, I like the brilliance and power they deliver to the music, as can be heard for example on page https://www.modartt.com/modeld where most demos use the default settings.
Some very useful info here. Would it not be possible to have some additional factory presets, some 'engineered' (for recording) and some 'voiced' (for live playing), to cater for a wider range of tastes? Some people might say there are too many presets already, but there are others who'll say you can never have too many...
- YvesTh
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Re: bad ringing on the pianos since the last few updates
The number of factory presets is certainly not a problem... but it is true that their organization would need to be reviewed. For example, grouping presets designed to be as close as possible to the feeling of playing on a real piano (binaural, player, why not a headphone preset...) with a minimum of effects and standardized for all the pianos. Currently, depending on the instrument, the player effects for example do not all have the same microphones, effects etc... Idem for binaural, prelude or basic, which distorts the comparison between instruments. Then, separate all the presets rather designed for mixing or recording.
- theinvisibleman
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Re: bad ringing on the pianos since the last few updates
ok so I understand the updates have infact just highlighted some issues from the real piano but I find this hard to believe that the real thing rings that bad.
I just cant imagine top piano players wanting to play this piano with such awful ringing. At the very least these player would be asking for the piano to be modified.
this is actually bad news for me as I don't like playing the modart piano anymore when it has been my goto for many years.
Eq'ing is not going to work for me. is there a specific parameter I can just turn down the harsh ringing per note? its a shame as it just wasn't there before.
Last edited by theinvisibleman (11-03-2022 21:22)
- Philippe Guillaume
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Re: bad ringing on the pianos since the last few updates
theinvisibleman wrote:
ok so I understand the updates have infact just highlighted some issues from the real piano but I find this hard to believe that the real thing rings that bad.
I just cant imagine top piano players wanting to play this piano with such awful ringing. At the very least these player would be asking for the piano to be modified.
this is actually bad news for me as I don't like playing the modart piano anymore when it has been my goto for many years.
Eq'ing is not going to work for me. is there a specific parameter I can just turn down the harsh ringing per note? its a shame as it just wasn't there before.
Please contact the support, we will help you.
- hanysz
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Re: bad ringing on the pianos since the last few updates
Philippe Guillaume wrote:
dcitron wrote:The real pianos definitely ring down there as well (it's the copper-wound strings, according to Niclas's helpful reply)
Exactly. On Steinway D, the highest copper-wound string is E1 (MIDI # 40). It is also the highest note of the bass frame section (before the cross-over), tied to the bass bridge. From F1 upwards, strings are of pure steel and belong to the middle frame section, tied to the main part of the bridge.
jcitron wrote:
In other words, Modartt has modeled the crossover point on the piano scale?
It would be nice to have this sort of realism as a setting that the user can turn on or off. You could see the register break as a design feature to be reproduced exactly, or you could see it as a flaw in physical pianos that you can transcend in a digital instrument. If the software could either simulate the break or smooth over it, why not give the user the choice?
- dazric
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Re: bad ringing on the pianos since the last few updates
hanysz wrote:
Philippe Guillaume wrote:dcitron wrote:The real pianos definitely ring down there as well (it's the copper-wound strings, according to Niclas's helpful reply)
Exactly. On Steinway D, the highest copper-wound string is E1 (MIDI # 40). It is also the highest note of the bass frame section (before the cross-over), tied to the bass bridge. From F1 upwards, strings are of pure steel and belong to the middle frame section, tied to the main part of the bridge.
jcitron wrote:In other words, Modartt has modeled the crossover point on the piano scale?
It would be nice to have this sort of realism as a setting that the user can turn on or off. You could see the register break as a design feature to be reproduced exactly, or you could see it as a flaw in physical pianos that you can transcend in a digital instrument. If the software could either simulate the break or smooth over it, why not give the user the choice?
I agree with this. Also I'd like to see, in addition to the Condition slider, another slider that can quickly modify the piano tone brighter or darker, according to taste - something to consider for future updates?
- Amen Ptah Ra
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Re: bad ringing on the pianos since the last few updates
Have you forgotten uses of Hammer hardness or just completely have become dissatisfied with all of three (3) parameters belonging to it?
hanysz wrote:
It would be nice to have this sort of realism as a setting that the user can turn on or off. You could see the register break as a design feature to be reproduced exactly, or you could see it as a flaw in physical pianos that you can transcend in a digital instrument. If the software could either simulate the break or smooth over it, why not give the user the choice?
Anyway, any company such as MODARTT might have truly nothing to gain if ever to Steinway & Sons it says or suggests even "Steinway pianos are very flawed and have been that way ages. Now let some only enlightened individuals at MODARTT finally fix them for you and market and sell just the new and improved versions of our own doing, as honestly we who know more about pianos at MODARTT firmly believe it's very important to get the word out now about your Steinway pianos having shortcomings however inadvertently tolerated over the ages."
Probably inappropriate my mentioning this at this thread but someone at another complained about a metal or metallic sound produced by pianos from PIANOTEQ though few if any now complain ever about any supposed lack of the sounds wood otherwise might contribute largely to any piano model found regularly in a showroom but somehow audibly absent from the virtual piano models.
Personally, I hear a lot of the wood with PIANOTEQ pianos and am really in awe of it!
With physical pianos made primarily of wood cabinetry and metal strings, I personally consider an accomplishment of software development (that is) any of the software sounds identified as coming from natural wood and metal or some sounding as though they are somehow indeed obviously metallic: nothing short of accurate representations of the physical piano instruments themselves, musical instruments no surprise comprised mostly of wood and metal which today can still form a very large basis of the physically manufactured musical equipment including the pianos people play continually and appreciably.
theinvisibleman wrote:
Eq'ing is not going to work for me.
Usually, I like your comments. You maybe dislike to create or use some EQ3 preset you can always save to use later on any of the models?
Some equalization just seems always a given with digital pianos whether hardware or software. And, it's definitely a necessity of common practices used inside acoustic piano recordings.
Since end users use different speaker configurations with probably no two setups exactly alike of the users, you may expect to find many of them having to resort to some forms of equalization more than others. On an equalizer a notch here or there effectively might solve a problem for you...
Last edited by Amen Ptah Ra (16-03-2022 13:34)
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