Automatic Tuning

Hope this is helpful here, for anyone wanting to do tuning adjustments by hand.

Use "Flat" temperament to make quite 'firm' adjustments with less real-world piano physics/stresses modelled in.

Instead try switching to "Flat" temperament - this should eliminate much of the way the model touches upon surrounding notes etc.

Flat temperament is more MIDI compliant and setting numbers for notes is more solid.

Tested what tsarsaltin did:

Beginning with same default I. Pleyel piano, same "Just" intonation loaded.

Next, loaded the same default piano (into B slot in the A/B buttons, top right of Pianoteq interface).

Loaded "Flat" temperament into the B piano.

Next, I clicked A/B to see the A piano, and typed the same numbers (for unedited Just intonation) into the B piano's tuning circle.. one note number at a time (clicking A/B to toggle between these 2 pianos).

After getting the 'correct' Just intonation numbers into the Flat B piano, the last thing was to raise the A3 by +3 cents.

So now, both pianos theoretically have Just intonation - but the A piano has "real world" piano tuning issues (as described in tsarsaltin's post) where the real piano is modelled, and stresses on the piano's parts make other notes surrounding the +3 one, go 'unexpectedly' (or expected really) in the opposite direction.

But - the B piano, working from "Flat" temperament, with "Just" numbers typed in, when we listen to surrounding notes of the +3 cents one, there is significantly less opposing downward tuning of surrounding notes or other 'swimming' between other notes.

To further compound things, for the better, Pianoteq allows a choice between "Full rebuild" and "String tension" for the tuning modelling.

Logically, those 2 things will change much about any non Flat tuning.. but shouldn't effect any Flat tuning alterations. (at least in my experience this seems the case - but I'm not 100% sure 'some' modelling does still touch upon some Flat based alterations - but nowhere near as much as if beginning from "Equal" temperament, or other loaded in temperaments which are much more computed rather than set in something more like stone like Flat is.)

The phenom (or surrounding notes altering when one is being tuned up, or down) is easiest to observe with a guitar, more readily available - if it's in tune, turn the tuning peg for the bass note so it goes sharp.. with most guitars, just a little extra stress on that string and you can begin to hear how the note of course is higher, but if you strum all open strings while doing it, as you keep turning the peg, you will most likely hear all other notes going lower.

This is why even exceptional guitarists can 'seem' to be bad at tuning (on the contrary, often the longer taken to re-start over a few times, is to allow all notes time to "seat" better on all of the guitar's relevant materials). "Why are they taking so long!" - even really wonderful guitars exhibit this natural 'warping' of the neck/bridge etc. so, if your guitarist takes more time than you like, there's really no current 'perfect' way to tune a guitar (of any kind) which may outlast the whole set or show, or even per song..

In a piano, very much similar forces - maybe much smaller deviations - but many more swimming high resonances to 'sing' strongly against the rest of the initial transient 'pitch' etc.

With different forces, zones and esp. with close pins for neighboring notes, incredible stresses involved compared to a guitar which is so much more pliable and stresses bow the neck and skew esp. things like 'floating bridges'. Same, same but different - similar phenom.

I don't know how to make all this more concise (though have tried, still ended up with a long-ish post).

Not sure exactly technically how much Flat is left untouched by the rest of the engine - but definitely worth trying - seems to solve here.

Oh, also whenever you are using Equal, or other loaded temperaments, even if you like the real way the piano might 'swim' the other notes around a little - try using "Stretching".. this can help "Flatten" the series of notes, eliminat a little of the 'obvious' bump between radically altered notes. Highest setting of 3 can make some jumpy adjustments sound sweeter.. it's all so wonderful to have at our disposal - just hoping it's a lot of fun for others to try out - it's not hard.. just a little experimentation involved.

Cheers!

Thanks for the explanation - there are always plenty of rabbit holes to go down on the subject of tuning. Thanks also to Qexl for the detailed analysis of Flat tuning. I have to admit my very quick test (pressed for time!) was visual only, I didn't listen to the results (duh). But now I've discovered another rabbit hole, and a rather fascinating one for me. What's going on when you tune the root note in the circle? If pushed to extremes, the available notes on the keyboard start disappearing and you can get some really wacky tuning effects - something that I may put to creative use at some point!